Is It Possible to Live Without Sinning?

[Woody]

Jeannie. You have said some great things here. Thanks.

[phkrause]

Wonderful post Jeannieb.

pk

[LifeHiscost]

never stop studying about Him. I believe God will save every one of us, unless we actively resist Him. And if we actively resist, I believe God will weep over us as we are being left on this old earth to be consumed by the fire of His glory.

We have such a loving God, who longs to take us all home to live with Him for eternity. I just want to be there, along with all my friends from C/A.

Thank you, Jeannie, for your input about Who God really is. There is a book by Morris Venden, entitled, "Hard to be Lost".

I would encourage any who are interested in the joy of serving the only Jesus willing to give His life, that all might have the joy of living today and for eternity, read this book. The author has many more of other titles, but I can assure you, no other author makes it so clear of how the love of Jesus can be our permanent treasure.

You can get this book, among many others by Morris Venden, for $1.99 at this URL,

http://www.alibris.com/booksearch?cm_sp=narrow*middle*go

And if you can't afford it send me a PM and I'll be more than happy to see that it gets sent today.

And thank you all who have contributed today, for the saving of just one. And even if there is only one, I'm happy to be that one.

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me"John 10:27 KJV

Blessings!

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Jeannieb43

never stop studying about Him. I believe God will save every one of us, unless we actively resist Him. And if we actively resist, I believe God will weep over us as we are being left on this old earth to be consumed by the fire of His glory.

We have such a loving God, who longs to take us all home to live with Him for eternity. I just want to be there, along with all my friends from C/A.

Thank you, Jeannie, for your input about Who God really is. There is a book by Morris Venden, entitled, "Hard to be Lost".

I would encourage any who are interested in the joy of serving the only Jesus willing to give His life, that all might have the joy of living today and for eternity, read this book. The author has many more of other titles, but I can assure you, no other author makes it so clear of how the love of Jesus can be our permanent treasure.

You can get this book, among many others by Morris Venden, for $1.99 at this URL,

http://www.alibris.com/booksearch?cm_sp=narrow*middle*go

And if you can't afford it send me a PM and I'll be more than happy to see that it gets sent today.

And thank you all who have contributed today, for the saving of just one. And even if there is only one, I'm happy to be that one.

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me"John 10:27 KJV

Blessings!

Thanks LHC, you are a true Christian. I'm going to check out the URL you gave. Here is a link to an excellent book you can get for free in PDF, about Righteousness by Faith.

It's called "Christ Our Righteousness" by Bill Lehman

http://www.sdabeaconlight.org/index.htm

[cardw]

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God still loves you, cardw, and so do I. [i just went to your profile to confirm my memory that you're a musician. I've read many of your posts -- and I see that I'm listed as one of your "Buddies." Hope I can remain so.]

I would have very few friends if I limited them to those that agree with me. LOL

It takes a lot to offend me. I respect people who say what they believe to be true and people who respect truth telling are not generally offended by what I write.

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The reason this expression of belief [or non-belief] doesn't frighten me is that I know Jesus came and died to ensure us of the right to exercise our free will. ["Let every man be convinced in his own mind..." or something like that.] God created us all with freedom of choice. We are free to decide for or against God based on our own information. However, I believe we should continue to input all sources of information as long as possible--never stop studying about Him.

I'm open to exploring the idea of some great source, but I am reasonably sure that the Bible does not describe the nature of that source.

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And if we actively resist, I believe God will weep over us as we are being left on this old earth to be consumed by the fire of His glory.

This is a nice sentiment, but it still isn't freedom of choice. A choice that ends in death is no choice at all. And it makes no sense that even if we choose against this god that he still is forced to burn us to death. What is the point of suffering at that point?

To me, the amount of explanation and apologizing needed to sustain the biblical god is really evidence that its made up.

[phkrause]

I have that book LHC, it was really good.

pk

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

From my point of view, that things are the way they are, with lack of harmony in regards to interpreting God's communications to us, makes perfect sense. This is because I see the Bible to be a spiritual book, meaning it requires spiritual discernment to interpret correctly. It's also because God has created us with free will, which is very important to Him, allowing us to misinterpret Him (e.g., understanding Him to be violent, when He's not).

Understanding the OT god as violent is not a matter of free will. Its a matter of fact. It is not hard to demonstrate that god takes credit for very violent acts against people on the earth by reading the OT.

Now, I admit, if "spiritualize" these stories as non factual we might get around the idea that god is not violent in the Bible, but the free will argument really fails to address the great suffering on this planet apparently allowed under the watchful eye of an omnipotent god. Because this god in the exercise of his free will chose to allow great suffering, which in the ethics of Christianity would be a sin of omission.

There are simply too many loose ends for any of this to work.

There's only two mentioned here. One is that God takes credit for being violent. This can be understood under the principle that in Scripture God is often presented as doing that which He permits. The other is why God permits suffering to exist. Suffering exists because people choose to act contrary to His will. He doesn't force His will upon others. If people always did God's will, there would be no suffering. Put another way, suffering comes as a result of selfishness. This is the essence of sin.

[pnattmbtc]

j:And if we actively resist, I believe God will weep over us as we are being left on this old earth to be consumed by the fire of His glory.

c:This is a nice sentiment, but it still isn't freedom of choice. A choice that ends in death is no choice at all. And it makes no sense that even if we choose against this god that he still is forced to burn us to death. What is the point of suffering at that point?

I agree that "it makes no sense that even if we choose against this god that he still is forced to burn us to death." I also agree that this wouldn't be free will.

However, if selfishness leads to misery and death, and God warns us of this, that's another story.

[LifeHiscost]

It is not hard to demonstrate that god takes credit for very violent acts against people on the earth by reading the OT.

One need not go to the Old Testament to see that God takes full responsibility for all that has happened on this earth, no matter how horrendous the implications.

"But God's free gift is not at all to be compared to the trespass [His grace is out of all proportion to the fall of man]. For if many died through one man's falling away (his lapse, his offense), much more profusely did God's grace and the free gift [that comes] through the undeserved favor of the one Man Jesus Christ abound and overflow to and for [the benefit of] many."

Romans 5:15 AMP Brackets theirs LHC

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,"1 Timothy 2:3-5 NKJV

" Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."2 Corinthians 5:20-22 NKJV

"And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him,...

Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. "

Luke 23:33,34 KJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

It was only when I left that living a life that Jesus suggests makes any sense. I personally think that Jesus was hijacked by neo platonic philosophers and that he probably was much more mystical or early Christianity was a mystery religion and no actual Jesus existed. If you read the history it is so apparent that there is no god revealed truth here. It is all made up by men for cultural and societal reasons. There is a natural philosophy that emerges in every culture much like the evolution of the physical body.

Just one Scripture instruction reveals that the Christian body of our day, for the most part, does not reveal Jesus' wishes for His followers, although I see this changing rapidly in recent times and events..

"I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive."Acts 20:35 KJV

However the fact that Jesus' followers do not exemplify His teachings only reveals we have, for the most part chosen to be selfish, freely and without coercion until we choose to be delivered from our own lusts through a Power outside of our own capabilities.

"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"Romans 6:16 KJV

Blessings!

[Guest]

“What is justification by faith? It is the work of God in laying the glory of man in the dust, and doing for man that which it is not in his power to do for himself.” TM 456. We like the last part of that sentence where it talks about God doing for man that which we cannot do for ourselves. But many do not like the part about laying the glory of man in the dust. It is the work of God to lay the glory of man in the dust—those things about which we could boast. You cannot have the last part without also having the first part. You cannot have God do for you that which you cannot do for yourself unless first of all He lays your glory in the dust. - Bill Lehman

[LifeHiscost]

Thanks LHC, you are a true Christian. I'm going to check out the URL you gave. Here is a link to an excellent book you can get for free in PDF, about Righteousness by Faith.

It's called "Christ Our Righteousness" by Bill Lehman

http://www.sdabeaconlight.org/index.htm

Thank you, Richard, for the link. Is it anything like EGW's

book by the same name?

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

To me, the amount of explanation and apologizing needed to sustain the biblical god is really evidence that its made up.

[cardw]

Quote:

There's only two mentioned here.

If you want an exhaustive list you are going to need a lot more room than a single post is going to provide. Here is a short list in case you are interested.

Christian fallacies

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Suffering exists because people choose to act contrary to His will. He doesn't force His will upon others.

Well if god chooses to "allow" someone to suffer a painful burning death, rather than simply not resurrecting them, then he is forcing his will on them.

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If people always did God's will, there would be no suffering. Put another way, suffering comes as a result of selfishness. This is the essence of sin.

Really? This isn't even Biblical. Suffering happens to everyone on this planet regardless if they do god's will. Job is a prime example showing that the Bible makes no such argument.

[LifeHiscost]

“What is justification by faith? It is the work of God in laying the glory of man in the dust, and doing for man that which it is not in his power to do for himself.” TM 456. We like the last part of that sentence where it talks about God doing for man that which we cannot do for ourselves. But many do not like the part about laying the glory of man in the dust. It is the work of God to lay the glory of man in the dust—those things about which we could boast. You cannot have the last part without also having the first part. You cannot have God do for you that which you cannot do for yourself unless first of all He lays your glory in the dust. - Bill Lehman

Sounds like a book I would enjoy reading. And draws attention to what is probably the greatest reason any one would fail of reaching the promised land. The apostle Paul gave the best answer that, by the grace of God would solve most, if not all of our dichotomies.

"...I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content."Philippians 4:11 KJV

"Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward."Hebrews 10:35 KJV

Blessings!

[cardw]

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Personally I think that the person who would believe it necessary to apologize for God's actions doesn't really know Him. Anymore than the person who feels it important to attack Him.

Remember since I don't believe that this god exists there is no god to attack. What I am questioning is YOUR claims that this god exists.

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If God is only a fairy tale why don't we give Him the same space as Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs.

Well, no one ever killed anyone else for not believing in Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. I think that's a fairly large distinction.

Even you are an atheist as far as Zeus is concerned. If you stated that you didn't believe in Zeus during the time of Socrates, you would be put to death for corrupting the youth. Now I'm an atheist as far as Zeus is concerned and I simply add one more god to the list; Yahweh.

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It would seem to me that if you are making up your mind about that which either is going to give you eternal happiness and immortality through the Giver of life, or an eternity in the unknown, which may or may not include the fulfillment of joyful expectations, you would want something better than a reasonable surety, for even you are assured and probably believe one Scripture of the Word of God.

If I took this as my reasoning then I would be busy making sure I was in line with every god myth ever claimed to be true.

Now the cost of following Christianity, even though its not true is wasting my life beating myself up and trying to please a non-existent god. Contrary to your belief, not everyone needs to have the guarantee of eternal life. There is plenty to be joyful about without a promise of eternal life.

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"And...it is appointed for men to die once..." Hebrews 9:27 NKJV

Oops, there goes your future. You have a body that many medical personnel will verify was made to last for eternity.

You'll have to let me know who these large body of medical personnel are. LOL The last time I checked my body wasn't made of steel.

Again, the core motivation of Christian belief is fear. It simply keeps coming up all over the place.

[cardw]

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remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive."Acts 20:35 KJV

If anyone has experienced the nature of really giving to someone, this saying makes a lot of sense. I would agree that in my experience it is far more joyful to give than receive. This is simply a statement of fact.

Now Christians go and ruin it by making it a moral obligation. That takes away the blessing.

That's the point of informed self interest. An informed reasonable self interest recognizes many of the teachings of Jesus as enlightened.

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However the fact that Jesus' followers do not exemplify His teachings only reveals we have, for the most part chosen to be selfish, freely and without coercion until we choose to be delivered from our own lusts through a Power outside of our own capabilities.

Its much simpler than that. Christian teachings keep people immature and in fear. There is a fatalism in regard to bad behavior that encourages Christians to avoid personal responsibility. Its the belief that the Devil made me do it or my sinful nature took over.

Maybe its simply because one needs to grow up and understand that their behavior is self destructive. An understanding that happiness doesn't depend on knowing that one has eternal life, but on the connections we have with the people around us. You don't need a belief in god to connect with people. In fact, very often, a belief in god separates people.

[LifeHiscost]

Suffering happens to everyone on this planet regardless if they do god's will.

Which proves a couple of things.

" As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:" Romans 3:10 KJV

"And Jesus said unto him, "Why callest thou Me good? None is good save One, that is, God."Luke 18:19 KJV

"Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution."2 Timothy 3:12 NKJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Again, the core motivation of Christian belief is fear. It simply keeps coming up all over the place.

I'm not sure who you hang out with but I find many of the friends I have, while not totally happy with this world, do find joyful expectations for each day of their life, as well as an expectation that removes most of what remains the major cause of deaths for the society in which we live.

"I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly. "John 10:10 NKJV

John 10:10 NKJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Now Christians go and ruin it by making it a moral obligation. That takes away the blessing.

Let me see if following a certain tenet of faith causes fear, especially if connected to another with the same belief.

You shall not murder. Removes a lot of fear that might exist if I knew the other believed something like this__

"...the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service."John 16:2 NKJV

You do sound like a person who finds it easy to find reason to disbelieve in the God of love. As long as debate is a person's highest goal, as opposed to seeking for Truth in the Creator, and one depends upon their own superior wisdom to give the guidance they need, one will find their end, a result of the powers they believe they have.

Therefor I choose to believe in my need for better, more sure Powers than my own.

" Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”"Matthew 11:29,30 NKJV

Regards!

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Suffering happens to everyone on this planet regardless if they do god's will.

Which proves a couple of things.

" As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:" Romans 3:10 KJV

"And Jesus said unto him, "Why callest thou Me good? None is good save One, that is, God."Luke 18:19 KJV

"Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution."2 Timothy 3:12 NKJV

Regards!

These are not proofs, they are simply quotations. Switching the meaning of words is not an intellectually honest way of discovering truth.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Again, the core motivation of Christian belief is fear. It simply keeps coming up all over the place.

I'm not sure who you hang out with but I find many of the friends I have, while not totally happy with this world, do find joyful expectations for each day of their life, as well as an expectation that removes most of what remains the major cause of deaths for the society in which we live.

"I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly. "John 10:10 NKJV

John 10:10 NKJV

Regards!

Your answer has nothing to do with the statement. I was talking about the belief system not your friends.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Now Christians go and ruin it by making it a moral obligation. That takes away the blessing.

Let me see if following a certain tenet of faith causes fear, especially if connected to another with the same belief.

You shall not murder. Removes a lot of fear that might exist if I knew the other believed something like this__

"...the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service."John 16:2 NKJV

That time has already come and its because a group of people believe in god called Allah. This same motive still exists in Christianity as well. All of the religions based on the Abrahamic tradition have practiced violence in the name of their god.

Now you imply that if we didn't have the Bible there would be no restraint on murder. That is simply not true. There are many good reasons to not kill other people. One of the simplest is that it causes pain and most people have enough empathy to refrain from killing other people's family members.

The dangerous thing about religion is that it teaches people to suppress this natural aversion. Instead it teaches people to kill in the name of their god.

[cardw]

Quote:

You do sound like a person who finds it easy to find reason to disbelieve in the God of love.

All disbelief is easy. I can say to you that you need to believe that all people are really purple. No matter how much you choose to believe that people are purple, the evidence of your senses will tell you otherwise.

I simply have realized that there is not sufficient evidence to believe that the god of the Bible exists. So I don't try to believe or disbelieve. It has nothing to do with hard or easy.

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As long as debate is a person's highest goal

I have never stated this, so you have no basis for this statement at all. I have clearly stated what my motives are. So unless you can divine things that I'm not aware of, this is simply you making things up.

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as opposed to seeking for Truth in the Creator, and one depends upon their own superior wisdom to give the guidance they need, one will find their end, a result of the powers they believe they have.

I don't claim to know, only you are doing that. You have failed to produce any evidence that your claims are true. All you have are claims.

I am open to evidence, but I haven't seen any.

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

It's going to come down to loyalty, and the Sabbath. The Sabbath issue will be brought to the forefront.

No, the gospel will be brought to the forefront! It will be restored.....The Sabbath will then be a sign of that truth.

Agreed!