Members phkrause Posted December 12, 2009 Members Share Posted December 12, 2009 This is how that verse reads in the Tanach, cardw: 7. preserving loving kindness for thousands, forgiving iniquity and rebellion and sin; yet He does not completely clear [of sin] He visits the iniquity of parents on children and children's children, to the third and fourth generations." and here is the Rabbi Rashi's commentary to that verse: preserving loving-kindness: that a person does before Him. for thousands: For two thousand generations. [iniquity and rebellion]: Iniquities are intentional sins. are sins committed out of rebellion, which a person commits [in order] to anger [God]. -[from Yoma 36b] yet He does not completely clear [of sin]: Heb. According to its simple interpretation, it means that He does not completely overlook the iniquity but exacts retribution for it little by little. Our Rabbis, however, interpreted [this expression to mean]: He clears those who repent, but does not clear those who do not repent (from Yoma 86a, targumim). He visits the iniquity of parents on the children: when they hold onto the deeds of their parents in their hands [i.e., emulate their ways], for He already explained this in another verse, [that it means only] “of those who hate Me” (Exod. 20:5). -[from Ber. 7a] and fourth generations: Heb. the fourth generation. Thus, the [i.e., God’s] attribute of goodness exceeds the attribute of retribution by a ratio of one to five hundred. Concerning the attribute of goodness, He says: “preserving loving-kindness for thousands.” -[from Tosefta, Sotah 4:1] And here is how a Messianic Jew, Dr. David H. Stern, translated this passage: showing grace to the thousandth generation, forgiving offenses, crimes, sins; yet not exonerating the guilty, but causing the negative effects of the parents' offenses to be experienced by their children and grandchildren, and even by the third and fourth generations." and I would suggest to read the preceding verse to get the full context. I prefer this translation to the Rabbi Rashi's, but like the commentary of the verse, even though it doesn't really agree with what I had posted further above. Dr. Stern doesn't have a commentary on this so I couldn't post anything from him on the verse. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted December 12, 2009 Moderators Share Posted December 12, 2009 Quote: If god needs justice, then there is no such thing as forgiveness. God isn't forgiving sins at all. He is simply transferring the punishment. The idea that there is some kind of law that even God is accountable to basically denies that there is a God. I see no difference with this reasoning. In both cases God or God's justice needs to be appeased. Without justice, forgiveness is meaningless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Quote: If god needs justice, then there is no such thing as forgiveness. God isn't forgiving sins at all. He is simply transferring the punishment. The idea that there is some kind of law that even God is accountable to basically denies that there is a God. I see no difference with this reasoning. In both cases God or God's justice needs to be appeased. Without justice, forgiveness is meaningless. I think you mean without the concept of justice, forgiveness is meaningless. If one still executes the justice, then forgiveness hasn't happened. Forgiveness is giving up the need to punish. If god still punishes then god has not given up that need. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Quote: "showing grace to the thousandth generation, forgiving offenses, crimes, sins; yet not exonerating the guilty, but causing the negative effects of the parents' offenses to be experienced by their children and grandchildren, and even by the third and fourth generations." You obviously went to a lot of trouble to explain this. I think one should note the complexity of this apologetic. I go back to the idea that if this was so important, why didn't god edit this to be more clear. Even with this translation god is causing the effects. Apparently left to their own, these effects wouldn't happen. Plus the whole retribution model is the low bar of ethical perception. The whole idea that god needs to make sure the guilty suffer is pointless if they are going to die anyway. Laws and courts are man made political systems to force people to do the will of the state. This hardly seems to measure up to a superior moral system of insight and wisdom. While I appreciate the attempt to make god look a little more mature, the whole enterprise is really based on an immature model of ethics. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneV Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 If god needs justice, then there is no such thing as forgiveness. God isn't forgiving sins at all. He is simply transferring the punishment. The idea that there is some kind of law that even God is accountable to basically denies that there is a God. I see no difference with this reasoning. In both cases God or God's justice needs to be appeased. cardw, To whom did God transfer the punishment? Now that, to me, is the ultimate in forgiveness! Quote WayneV Just remember these words of warning, for they will come to pass all too soon: If you are ever flying through the desert and your canoe breaks down, remember that it takes three pancakes to lift the doghouse, because there ain't nary a bone in ice cream! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Originally Posted By: cardw If god needs justice, then there is no such thing as forgiveness. God isn't forgiving sins at all. He is simply transferring the punishment. The idea that there is some kind of law that even God is accountable to basically denies that there is a God. I see no difference with this reasoning. In both cases God or God's justice needs to be appeased. cardw, To whom did God transfer the punishment? Now that, to me, is the ultimate in forgiveness! That may sound good to you, but to me its terribly immature. Let's say I have a dog and he misbehaves. So, to allow myself to forgive him, I hit myself with the newspaper. Starts to look ridiculous doesn't it? Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted December 12, 2009 Moderators Share Posted December 12, 2009 Quote: Without justice, forgiveness is meaningless. I think you mean without the concept of justice, forgiveness is meaningless. If one still executes the justice, then forgiveness hasn't happened. Forgiveness is giving up the need to punish. If god still punishes then god has not given up that need. If justice is carried out regardless, then there is no forgiveness, is there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert Good! And these are bad? "For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God' date=' but the doers of the law who will be justified." Rom 2:13 ESV.[/quote'] Then you must obey the law, as Christ did (no selfishness...none, zip, zero) or you can never be justified by law. Quote: "Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.” Jn 8:11 ESV Christ's desire was for this woman to leave behind her sexual sins....Adding to this is out of context and legalistic.... Quote: "If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” Mt 19:17 ESV All these verses you have lifted out of their context. The above was directed to a man that thought he had heaven because of his goodness. Christ exposed his love of self....Those who wish to gain heaven through law must be selfless....Hence Christ said to this man if you want to be perfect...sell your goods and give the money to the poor....That's selflessness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Without justice, forgiveness is meaningless. We all died to the law in the body of Christ 2000 years ago because when One died "all died". The justice of the law has been met in Jesus Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Quote: Without justice, forgiveness is meaningless. I think you mean without the concept of justice, forgiveness is meaningless. If one still executes the justice, then forgiveness hasn't happened. Forgiveness is giving up the need to punish. If god still punishes then god has not given up that need. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted December 12, 2009 Moderators Share Posted December 12, 2009 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo And these are bad? "For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God' date=' but the doers of the law who will be justified." Rom 2:13 ESV.[/quote'] Then you must obey the law, as Christ did (no selfishness...none, zip, zero) or you can never be justified by law. Quote: "Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.” Jn 8:11 ESV Christ's desire was for this woman to leave behind her sexual sins....Adding to this is out of context and legalistic.... Quote: "If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” Mt 19:17 ESV All these verses you have lifted out of their context. You can claim out of context all you want, they still say the same thing. Claim to be justified all you want, but if you continue to live in disobedience, you are no more justified than the man in jail. "Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." Rev 22:14,15 ESV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 If I eat too much cake and know it's wrong, does that mean I'm not justified? Or not justified anymore? :( Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted December 12, 2009 Moderators Share Posted December 12, 2009 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo Without justice, forgiveness is meaningless. We all died to the law in the body of Christ 2000 years ago because when One died "all died". The justice of the law has been met in Jesus Christ. Unless you are dead today and Christ living in you, that death 2000 yrs ago has no efficacy for you. Prov 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy. Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 You can claim out of context all you want, they still say the same thing. Context...context....makes all the difference Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert We all died to the law in the body of Christ 2000 years ago because when One died "all died". The justice of the law has been met in Jesus Christ. [/quote'][color:blue] Unless you are dead today and Christ living in you, that death 2000 yrs ago has no efficacy for you. You mean dead to sin? Well, that's legalism....Christ came to save me from the law: Read Gal 4:4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 If I eat too much cake and know it's wrong, does that mean I'm not justified? Or not justified anymore? According to Traditional SDA theology, yes....If you die after eating too much cake before you repent...you're lost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted December 12, 2009 Members Share Posted December 12, 2009 "Forgiveness is giving up the need to punish." Not sure I agree with that at all cardw. If someone runs a stop sign because they are under the influence and kills someone I love, a family member, etc. I can forgive, but under the law that person needs to be punished, do they not? pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Originally Posted By: SivartM If I eat too much cake and know it's wrong, does that mean I'm not justified? Or not justified anymore? According to Traditional SDA theology, yes....If you die after eating too much cake before you repent...you're lost Yes Rob. What you are describing is better known as the yo-yo theology. You are in Christ and then out of Christ each time you sin. IOWs you get yanked around all the time from Heaven to Hell. Typical Historic SDA theology. But praise God it is no longer part of the official theology of the church that I belong to. Praise God the SDA church has grown. Even if some want to remain midgets. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted December 12, 2009 Moderators Share Posted December 12, 2009 If I eat too much cake and know it's wrong, does that mean I'm not justified? Or not justified anymore? Would you remain justified if you are deliberately living in adultery? Deliberately stealing the Lord's money year in and year out? Deliberately breaking any or all of his commandments? When you became converted, you became justified & your name was written in the Lamb's book of life. IT REMAINS THERE UNTIL YOUR NAME COMES UP FOR JUDGMENT. No yo-yo salvation here - saved one minute and lost the next. When your day of judgment comes up, you will either be found living in sin or you are not, slave to your stomach or not. The Lord is your judge, not me. Whether eating cake is a salvation issue for you or not, I'll leave the Spirit to talk to you about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted December 12, 2009 Members Share Posted December 12, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert According to Traditional SDA theology, yes....If you die after eating too much cake before you repent...you're lost [/quote'] Yes Rob. What you are describing is better known as the yo-yo theology. You are in Christ and then out of Christ each time you sin. IOWs you get yanked around all the time from Heaven to Hell. Typical Historic SDA theology. But praise God it is no longer part of the official theology of the church that I belong to. Praise God the SDA church has grown. Even if some want to remain midgets. I disagree with that Redwood, as long as I've been an SDA member I've never seen that as our theology. Now I can say that I've heard members, that were not official leaders say things like that. But if people want to believe that what other members say is official than that is there problem and not mine. As far as I'm concerned I'm glad that God is the judge and not them!!!! pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Like I stated ... it is no longer a part of our theology. So we are in agreement on this. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Billiter Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 I think that the cake analogy is a bit overstated; it is a pattern of sin, that will cause us to lose our salvation. Isa 59:1 Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. Isa 59:3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue has muttered perverseness. Isa 59:4 None calls for justice, nor any pleads for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted December 12, 2009 Moderators Share Posted December 12, 2009 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo You mean dead to sin? Well, that's legalism....Christ came to save me from the law: Read Gal 4:4 [color:blue] If you want to live in sin, that's your choice. "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?" Rom 6:1,2 NKJ "For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries." Heb 10:26-27 ESV. If you want to believe you can continue to live in disobedience after coming to know Christ, that's your right. As for me, that's no longer an option. "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,: Titus 2:11,12 NIV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted December 12, 2009 Members Share Posted December 12, 2009 But Redwood I've been reading the daily devotional for the year about how the SDA church came into being, and have not read one once of that anywhere. Again if people say these things out of there own vilition (sp) than this is not from the leadership than or now. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Who's the author of your daily devotional? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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