pnattmbtc Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Originally Posted By: cardw So, I assume that you take it literally when it comes to the virgin birth of Christ. How do you know that the virgin birth is not a vision since it doesn't seem to make sense? "Who could have a baby without a father! I mean that's really crazy. Certainly it must be a vision." Why would you take the virgin birth and all the miracles of Jesus literally and not this vision by Ellen White? If you are going to use the rule of common sense then it must be applied equally otherwise its not a rationale at all. Excellent question. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Quote: Regarding Christ's not existing, I've never heard of that idea before. Are you familiar with "Evidence that demands a verdict?" Where was the article you referred to arguing that Jesus Christ didn't exist? Regarding extra-Biblical evidence that Jesus existed, how about Josephus, the Gospel of Thomas? Click on the link labelled Christ in Egypt Review Here is an additional source. (It's a URL, just click on it) Was Jesus a historical figure? To summarize these two sources we need to look at what they are. The one passage, in the Antiquities of the Jews written by Josephus (a Pharasee Historian) which appears to mention Jesus is an obvious forged interpolation probably put in by Eusebius a Christian historian that was having a hard time finding evidence for a real Jesus. This is evidenced by copies of the Antiquities of the Jews as late as the 16th century not having these passages and the interpolation being even obvious in the English translation. Here is the passage for your reference... Quote: About this time, there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing amongst us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared to them restored to life, for the prophets of God had prophesied these and countless other marvelous things about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared. It would also be impossible for a Pharasee to recognize Jesus as the Messiah and we know from the the church father Origen (ca. 185-ca. 154 CE) - who dealt extensively with Josephus - that Josephus did not believe in Jesus as the Messiah, i.e., as "the Christ." Now the Gospel of Thomas is a gnostic gospel. The gnostics did not believe that Jesus came in the flesh but was a spirit. "The document is very different in tone and structure from the four Canonical Gospels, or even other non-canonical gospels. Unlike the Canonical Gospels, it is not a narrative account of the life of Jesus; rather, it consists of logia, or wisdom sayings, with short dialogues, attributed to Jesus. The document has no reference to the divinity of Jesus, his crucifixion and resurrection or to the final judgement." Many gnostic sects saw the spirit of Jesus as a sort of Buddha like essence that could be re-incarnated much like the Dali Lama. In fact this spirit could be re-incarnated within each believer so that each person could become a Christ. Reflections of this can be seen when Jesus is said to be Elijah. When Jesus was talking about the resurrection it is very likely he was talking about re-incarnation, not the resurrection we normally think of. Many early Christians believed in re-incarnation. We can find many signs of this even within the gospels. So the Gospel of Thomas, written somewhere from 60 to 140 AD, well past any chance of an eye witness account of Jesus. One would think that Jesus, an educated Jew, would have at least written some books to record his thoughts and teachings, if they were to be that important. It's apparent that Jesus couldn't see the vast confusion that would emerge around his teachings today. This thread is a great example of the vague and imprecise nature of even the most basic of Christian teachings. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Quote: 1.Your question and point about the virgin birth of Christ doesn't appear to make any sense to me. You argue that it must be a vision because it doesn't make sense. That has nothing to do with my argument, which is that taking what was said in the vision as literal doesn't make sense. This is often true of visions, which are often symbolic. 2.To determine if something is symbolic or not usually just requires some common sense. Ok, I can see we need to have you apply your method to something specific. What does common sense tell you about this portion of the vision? Quote: They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering was there. What does this mean symbolically using common sense? Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Quote: There is also the question of punishment. If a person does wrong, and refuses pardon, is it not just that such a person be punished? Of course, the punishment should be appropriate, and not cruel. Ok, I think we need to look at the issue of punishment separately. As I understand it, according to you, some form of punishment in addition to the loss of eternal life needs to be administered to the evil dead after being resurrected, not by their own choice. What I want to know is what purpose does this punishment serve? There is going to be suffering with any kind of punishment. They already have lost eternal life. I'm not sure how this suffering is going to serve the evil dead. And I'm not sure how suffering is going to serve the saved. I would think that if they had the character of Christ all need for punishment of their enemies would be gone. I would think that love would want to reduce suffering, particularly when suffering at this point seems pointless. I think if I was among the saved and watching these people suffer, I would suffer with them. And if god can't make an executive decision to simply end it without suffering, then this god is not really in charge. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Regarding #308886, thanks for the references. I hadn't heard these arguments before. I didn't know there were people who doubted Christ existed. Regarding #308887, I didn't really understand your questions, nor your previous logic. That is, this question, "Why would you take the virgin birth and all the miracles of Jesus literally and not this vision by Ellen White?" makes no sense to me. Nor does this: "What does this mean symbolically using common sense?" What I said was that visions are often symbolic, and one can usually determine this by using common sense. I don't see either why anyone would take exception to this statement, which seems pretty self-evident, nor how your questions follow from what I said, nor what "symbolically using common sense" even means. Regarding the punishment question, I don't think it should be looked at separately. I purposely included it in a list of other things. Even if you said you didn't believe it was just for those who have done evil to be punished, the other reasons I mentioned would still remain. I didn't give punishment as a principle reason, and am not sure if I even gave it as a reason at all, but asked you if you thought it was just for a person to be punished for what they had done. You didn't answer my question, as far as I can tell. I'll await your response to my question, but comment that I don't believe any suffering the wicked experience is imposed upon them by God. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teresaq Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Quote: They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering was there. What does this mean symbolically using common sense? yes, using common sense, what does it mean? what person, set on fire, burns for days? how long has anyone set on fire lasted? Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Originally Posted By: cardw Quote: They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering was there. What does this mean symbolically using common sense? yes, using common sense, what does it mean? what person, set on fire, burns for days? how long has anyone set on fire lasted? Well what person is raised from the dead? If we are going to accept one miracle why not the other? Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Praise God ... our prophet tells us that Satan burns for the most days with great suffering. Somehow that comforts me. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Quote: I didn't really understand your questions, nor your previous logic. That is, this question, "Why would you take the virgin birth and all the miracles of Jesus literally and not this vision by Ellen White?" This is the point of miracles. We say that some miracles are real and don't go against common sense and yet others do. How do you tell the difference? The vision of Ellen White has everyone raised from the dead. Is this real or symbolic? Quote: Regarding the punishment question, I don't think it should be looked at separately. Why not? Quote: I didn't give punishment as a principle reason, and am not sure if I even gave it as a reason at all, It doesn't matter if its the principle reason. Punishment is happening. Quote: but asked you if you thought it was just for a person to be punished for what they had done. Timing is the issue here. If I am punished during my life time there is time to reform and learn from it. If the evil dead are punished, what purpose is there for it? It's not just anyway since supposedly Jesus was already punished for everyone's sins whether or not they accepted it. Does God need to dole out two punishments, one to Jesus and another one to the evil dead? You have no rational basis for punishment at this TIME. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Praise God ... our prophet tells us that Satan burns for the most days with great suffering. Somehow that comforts me. I can understand why one emotionally might want that to happen, but what is the point? It seems to me that the only difference between Satan causing suffering and we causing Satan suffering is the order in which it occurs. And if I believed that Satan existed and was an intelligent being, I would guess that he is suffering already. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.