Cheney's Admissions to John King

[lazarus]

Lawrence B. Wilkerson was chief of staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell and is chairman of the New America Foundation/U.S.-Cuba 21st Century Policy Initiative.

http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/2009/03/some_truths_abo/?ref=fp2

Cheney and his like are the evil people and we certainly are not going to prevail in the struggle with radical religion if we listen to people such as he.

When--and if--the truths about the detainees at Guantanamo Bay will be revealed in the way they should be, or Congress will step up and shoulder some of the blame, or the new Obama administration will have the courage to follow through substantially on its campaign promises with respect to GITMO, torture and the like, remains indeed to be seen.

On that revelation and those actions rests much of the credibility of our nation's return to sobriety and our truest values. In fact, on such positive developments may ultimately rest our entire future as a free people. For there shall inevitably be future terrorist attacks. Al-Qa'ida has been hurt, badly, largely by our military actions in Afghanistan and our careful and devastating moves to stymie its financial support networks.

But al-Qa'ida will be back. Iraq, GITMO, Abu Ghraib, heavily-biased U.S. support for Israel, and a host of other strategic errors have insured al-Qa'ida's resilience, staying power and motivation. How we deal with the future attacks of this organization and its cohorts could well seal our fate, for good or bad. Osama bin Laden and his brain trust, Aman al-Zawahiri, are counting on us to produce the bad. With people such as Cheney assisting them, they are far more likely to succeed.

[there buster]

Quote:

I don't believe the comparison is quite valid. With WWII there was an official declaration of war. There were nations officially in conflict. Now there is no official declaration of war. And what nations are we at war with?

As a number of legal experts have noted, no official declaration of war is necessary. Even so, we can say the same thing about the Vietnam conflict. Declared or not, prisoners of war were held until the war was over.

The fact that we are now dealing with a transnational organization is not of our doing, but theirs, and is irrelevant. People were engaged in armed conflict with us, and we captured them. It makes no difference if they carry AK 47s and engage in skirmishes, or whether they infiltrate and sabotage.

The U.S. made war on the Barbary pirates--a transnational force in the early 1800's, that was siezing and destroying American (an other) ships, killing our citizens, and stealing our goods.

The U.S. did not recognize the Confederate states as a separate nation. Lincoln declared them a "belligerent power," not a "rebellious" one-- making them something other than a nation or a rebellion. If he had declared them a rebellious power, every confederate soldier could have been executed for treason. Even though they were not from a recognized nation, confederate prisoners taken could be held for the duration.

And Lincoln suspended habeous corpus for citizens in the Union states as well.

History is replete with examples of one nation or another in conflict with a non- or trans-national force.

[there buster]

Quote:

Lawrence B. Wilkerson was chief of staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell and is chairman of the New America Foundation/U.S.-Cuba 21st Century Policy Initiative.

read the post.

Lots of naked assertions, few facts, and faulty reasoning.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: ichabod

Quote:

prisoners for so long without charges or trial, or why it has taken so long to bring any of them to trial.

That to me defies all civility and morality.

How long were POW's kept during WWII? Without charges or trial. Until the war was over. And some longer.

I don't believe the comparison is quite valid. With WWII there was an official declaration of war. There were nations officially in conflict. Now there is no official declaration of war. And what nations are we at war with?

Huh? The Commander in Chief has declared that there is a war going on. He has declared war against those who kidnapped and tortured and killed our people. I think that is about as 'official' as one needs.

[Neil D]

Lawrence B. Wilkerson was chief of staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell and is chairman of the New America Foundation/U.S.-Cuba 21st Century Policy Initiative.

Hey, I just saw an interview with that guy...He used to be chief of Staff with Colin Powel when he was in the State Department. Apparently, his assurtion is that there are about 24 really bad guys, and the other [we are talking hundreds here] were declared combatants when they were vacuumed up during an operation to find out if there was Telliban and what...

Yeah, 24 bad guys we got...and we have over how many of our boys that have died? About the same number as the twin towers, isn't it?

[carolaa]

There is not one single case of anyone being "tortured to death."

I don't believe that. I have seen various numbers claiming that up to 8 have been tortured to death. At any rate, several have died while being interrogated, and at least one soldier is facing homocide charges, last I knew.

[carolaa]

Quote:

- and so were many of the "enemy combatants."

If these people were picked up from office buildings or on ordinary business trips that would make sense. That they were picked up on battlefields while armed changes things considerably.

Battlefields? Please. And they were not all armed, by far.

[carolaa]

Quote:

Lawrence B. Wilkerson was chief of staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell and is chairman of the New America Foundation/U.S.-Cuba 21st Century Policy Initiative.

read the post.

Lots of naked assertions, few facts, and faulty reasoning.

Such as? Discredit the source - that's an interesting but tired tactic.

[lazarus]

Originally Posted By: ichabod

Quote:

Lawrence B. Wilkerson was chief of staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell and is chairman of the New America Foundation/U.S.-Cuba 21st Century Policy Initiative.

read the post.

Lots of naked assertions, few facts, and faulty reasoning.

Such as? Discredit the source - that's an interesting but tired tactic.

[Woody]

Such as? Discredit the source - that's an interesting but tired tactic.

Some here have 'tried' to discredit F _ _ ... but without results.

[there buster]

I didn't discredit the source. I said nothing about the author, his politics, his opinions, or his credibility. I simply read what he said, and it contained a lot of supposition, attribution of motives, but almost no facts at all.

The position was weak. In any of my high school classes, that would have been given a D.

[Neil D]

I didn't discredit the source. I said nothing about the author, his politics, his opinions, or his credibility. I simply read what he said, and it contained a lot of supposition, attribution of motives, but almost no facts at all.

The position was weak. In any of my high school classes, that would have been given a D.

Normally, I would have agreed with this...However, this guy is from the State Department, who controls secrets, and can NOT give sources, but talks from experience....We don't want another Valery Plume case where CIA agents are vetted...So, in this case, he IS the source....I know, sounds illogical....but unless you are cleared for certain information, he'd have to kill you if he told you.... And what I took away from his interview was that there were ubber conservatives, such as cheney, who spout off stuff like Obama is placing this country in danger again, and it gets to the wierdos of our country like the McVeys, and they go ballistic....and kill someone...

...are you guys harboring a secret desire that this situation should come about???? Because with all the toxic stuff coming, it sure seems that way....

[carolaa]

Quote:

But I always felt that if they were going to keep them, they might as well keep them at Guantanamo, which supposedly stopped the enhanced interrogations, as opposed to transferring them to some secret prison where that is not the case.

Then you must be similarly concerned about the Obama administration, which has explicitly stated it will continue rendition, where they are taken to places like Syria, where, no doubt, the Geneva Convention is scrupulously adhered to.

Yes, actually, I am. I think closing Guantanamo is a good PR move and sends the message that we are changing things, but other than that I'm not sure anything has really changed.