True-believer Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 I know that the SDA Church believes that when a person dies he is sleeping until the return of Jesus Christ in His Second Coming. But... Many Churches do teach FROM THE BIBLE concerning the STATE OF THE DEAD... And since they teach from the Bible alone, there interpetation is very different than that on SDA's. All mainland Christian Churches teach that when you die you either go to heaven and reign with Christ, or you go to hell and burn forever. Wherea's SDA's teach you sleep from death to the coming of Jesus Christ... The Christian Churches--(not catholic)--but Christian Churches all claim to teach from the Bible alone... including sda's... So, where did we all stuff up with this doctrine? Is it ok to stay open-minded about the state of the dead, --heaven or hell from death??? Any comments please would help me hugely... Quote Luke 4:19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Quote: The Christian Churches--(not catholic)--but Christian Churches all claim to teach from the Bible alone... This may be a little off topic ... but since you have said this ... I need to comment. DO you not believe that the Catholic Church is Christian? You seem to have some doubt but I wanted to check. And if you don't think that they are Christian .... on what basis do you have this belief? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Nan Posted March 17, 2009 Moderators Share Posted March 17, 2009 A brief summary -as I see things - In Eden, God promised Adam and Eve everlasting life while they obeyed and could eat of the Tree of Life. If they contravened that condition, they would die...not right then, but death would enter the world and eventually they would see death. As you know, the devil in the form of the serpent told Eve that was not true, she ate of the forbidden fruit and death came upon the world. We have to try to define what death really means. I think we need to go to the origin of human life - where God breathed the breath of life into the human form he had fashioned - we are told "Man became a living soul". In other words, life consists of the union of the breath of life and the human form - it makes sense to me to conclude that when that breath of life is gone, the soul is no longer living - ie it loses consciousness. You can probably quote many other texts, but I will just mention two, from Paul - God only has immortality (1 Tim 6:16) and when Jesus comes the mortal will put on immortality - see 1 Cor 15:52-3. If we accept that the soul is immortal in and of itself it follows that the claims of spiritualism, that the dead can communicate with the living, are valid. I see that as a huge potential danger. Others may give better explanations than this, but I hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
True-believer Posted March 17, 2009 Author Share Posted March 17, 2009 DO you not believe that the Catholic Church is Christian? You seem to have some doubt but I wanted to check. And if you don't think that they are Christian .... on what basis do you have this belief? Redwood, I'm not game enough to respond because I don't want to judge the Catholic Church, but to answer the question from my own experiences with them and my own opinion of them, I have to say that the: THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS NOT CHRISTIAN... Firstly, they already have there own Father--the priest in there so-called church; Secondly, Mary is the Mediator between God and Man; Thirdly, they have added to the Bible, the Apocrypha; Fourthly, they have added and changed the Ten Commandments; Fifthly, the hail Mary prayers take first place over ordinary prayers; sixthly, Sunday is the Sabbath; All mainland Christian Churches DO NOT HAVE THESE BIZARRE DOCTRINES. The Roman Catholic Church is NOT a Christian Church. Remember, I tried not to judge them, but sometimes it gets very hard not to because it is the truth. Any more comments Redwood or others? Quote Luke 4:19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Generally it is Adventist belief that if you believe in mainstream Christianity idea of temporary paradise and temporary hell... it is not only not consistent with scriptures, but also is inviting deception in the end times. I've been on the both sides of the argument, and I've thoroughly studied the both perspectives for myself. Basically, the mainstream evangelical approach is that THE BODY and THE SOUL is two separate entities... in Jesus' own words: Quote: Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. This is one of the scriptures that supposedly teaches the dual nature of man... i.e. people can not destroy your soul... only God can. But, there are plenty of OT and NT verses that do support the idea that the body is simply a machine that God powers. Once the power is withdrawn, the machine is inoperable. Actually the subject begs various deeper questions... 1) A question for the proponents of the "soul is the person" side..... When you say "It is my body" ... who is it that is speaking? IF there's no spiritual duality, then the idea of "my body" is absurd... because I am my body. Where do we get this language and why is it even there if we are our body? If we are not our body, then what are we? Are we merely a brain? 2) A question for the "body is separate from the soul" side... At what point is the human soul come into existence? If men are unable to create it, the it would mean that God would have to either create it at conception, or it exists and floats around until it finds a "host", which does invite for some interesting "new age" thinking. 3) There are numerous OBEs peer reviewed scientific studies that can not be explained away by Doug Batchelor's "hallucination due to lack of oxygen" dismissal. There are people describing in great detail the details that they could not have known... and they have seen it from a perspective of being outside of their bodies. I would not go about and dismiss these without proper evaluation and study. These phenomenon are widely documented and occurred with Religious and Atheists alike... Can Satan get into brain of people and fake visions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuff sed Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Separation of the body into separate components was a Greek concept if my memory serves me. I do like the algebraic concept of body and soul. It's about the only thing I remember of Algebra (which I learned quickly the year I had to teach it <g>) A + B = C God created man from the dust of the earth (A). He breathed into his nostrils the Breath of Life (. And man became a "Living Soul" ©... No body, no breath .......... no "Living Soul"..... Man does not have a Soul. Man "IS" a Soul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Originally Posted By: Redwood DO you not believe that the Catholic Church is Christian? You seem to have some doubt but I wanted to check. And if you don't think that they are Christian .... on what basis do you have this belief? Redwood, I'm not game enough to respond because I don't want to judge the Catholic Church, but to answer the question from my own experiences with them and my own opinion of them, I have to say that the: THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS NOT CHRISTIAN... Firstly, they already have there own Father--the priest in there so-called church; Secondly, Mary is the Mediator between God and Man; Thirdly, they have added to the Bible, the Apocrypha; Fourthly, they have added and changed the Ten Commandments; Fifthly, the hail Mary prayers take first place over ordinary prayers; sixthly, Sunday is the Sabbath; All mainland Christian Churches DO NOT HAVE THESE BIZARRE DOCTRINES. The Roman Catholic Church is NOT a Christian Church. Remember, I tried not to judge them, but sometimes it gets very hard not to because it is the truth. Any more comments Redwood or others? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
True-believer Posted March 18, 2009 Author Share Posted March 18, 2009 Life after death is biblical, thats what Luke 16 says about the rich man and Lazarus, some say it is only a parable, but it seems very real to me. Lazarus did go straight to heaven upon death and the rich man did descend into hell upon death to have continual burning. What else could that "so-called" parable be speaking about? Quote Luke 4:19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Life after death is biblical, thats what Luke 16 says about the rich man and Lazarus, some say it is only a parable, but it seems very real to me. Lazarus did go straight to heaven upon death and the rich man did descend into hell upon death to have continual burning. What else could that "so-called" parable be speaking about? Read Luke 16 again...look carefully at these verses- Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' 30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' 31"He said to him, [color:#990000]'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' " That in Red will tell you what this parable is all about.... Now, if you look at the details of the story, you will find that they do no aline with reality nor biblical reality.. ie 'cooling of the tongue' with a drop of water where there is eternal fire??? not logical. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthAfrican Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 @ True-believer : Let's say you'll die and go up into Heaven. Will you be happy there, seeing the misery and strife on Earth? I don't think I would be happy, sitting in Paradise and watching my family struggle through hard times... So therefore, for me, it makes sense that you sleep when you're dead. Have you ever been under anesthesia during an operation? The last one scared me, because I was more aware of the state of the dead then, and I wasn't aware at all... just an hour or two that's taken out of my life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted March 18, 2009 Moderators Share Posted March 18, 2009 Life after death is biblical, thats what Luke 16 says about the rich man and Lazarus, some say it is only a parable, but it seems very real to me. Lazarus did go straight to heaven upon death and the rich man did descend into hell upon death to have continual burning. What else could that "so-called" parable be speaking about? Have you ever tried reading that parable as if it is to be taken literally? Let's try the literal reading and see if it makes sense: 1) The beggar, Lazarus, dies and is literally carried bodily by the angels to Abraham's bosom (v. 22). 2) The rich dies, and is buried in the ground. However, his physical body is somehow being literally tormented in Hades. He has actual eyes and could literally see Abraham's bosom and Lazarus lying in his bosom (v. 23). 3) The rich man cries out and begs Abraham to have Lazarus dip the tip of his literal finger in real water and cool the rich man's literal tongue (v. 24). So far a literal reading of the text means that both men were physically transported to their rewards. The rich man in Hades is suffering in a real flame of fire which obviously does not burn up a man's tongue or body. Also it is evident that people in either place are able to see one another and to literally talk back and forth. 4) There is literally a great pit (a wide chasm or deep rift) lying between Hades and Abraham's bosom, which prevents anyone from crossing over from one place to another (v. 26). But despite this physical separation, they are close enough that they can somehow easily see each other and hold conversation. No wonder so many Bible scholars believe this is a parable and is not to be understood as teaching what literally happens when a person dies. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted March 18, 2009 Moderators Share Posted March 18, 2009 31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' " That in Red will tell you what this parable is all about.... It also teaches a couple of other important lessons: Our situation in this present life is not a reflection of what our situation will be in the next life. (The Jews of Jesus' time believed that if you were blessed in this life with wealth, it indicated that you had God's favor and this in turn showed that you would be blessed in the next life.) Take advantage of the present life because there will be no opportunity after death to make any changes in one's spiritual condition. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Life after death is biblical, thats what Luke 16 says about the rich man and Lazarus, some say it is only a parable, but it seems very real to me. Lazarus did go straight to heaven upon death and the rich man did descend into hell upon death to have continual burning. What else could that "so-called" parable be speaking about? As it turns out - there are a number of well-known well-accepted non-SDA Bible scholars and authors of Bible commentaries that believe in the immortality of the soul and YET they insist that Luke 16 has to be a parable. Here is why - 1. It has prayers to the dead 2. There is no appeal at all to God - in the parable the sovereign of the dead is Abraham - not God. 3. Abraham even has sovereign control over who can be raised from the dead. These non-SDA immortal-soul believing Bible scholars agree that there is no way that this is a "historiic account" of something -- but is a parable meant to teach the lesson "IF they do not LISTEN to Moses then neither will they listen though one rises from the dead" (Something that Christ in fact did!). in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted March 19, 2009 Moderators Share Posted March 19, 2009 Excellent post, Bob. Very good points. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted March 19, 2009 Members Share Posted March 19, 2009 Yes Bob I have to agree with John, very good points. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted March 20, 2009 Moderators Share Posted March 20, 2009 There are many texts in the Bible backing up the first death=sleep doctrine. Some will undoubtedly quote those, but I want you to consider the following just from logic alone: 1. What's the point of the resurrection if some disembodied spirit can already go to heaven and enjoy it right after death? 2. If you had been Lazarus or any of the dead that had gone to enjoy the pleasures of heaven and someone called you back, would you be happy? I'd be livid, even at Jesus if I had been Lazarus! 3. If our Christian friends who believe in an immortal soul are correct, then their belief in eternally burning hell and eternal suffering would be correct also, in which case, that would make God the most satanic being in the whole universe for torturing sinners forever & ever, ad infinitum, for a short lifetime of wickedness. 4. And if they are correct about hell & death or rather non-death, that would also make God a liar who warned: "The soul who sins shall die." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted March 20, 2009 Members Share Posted March 20, 2009 Good post Gerry. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
True-believer Posted March 20, 2009 Author Share Posted March 20, 2009 Yes, but what about the after-death experiences Christians have claimed to have? Quote Luke 4:19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted March 20, 2009 Moderators Share Posted March 20, 2009 I yet to read of someone with near-death experience go to hell. I'll stick with Scripture. The time is coming when we will either believe our eyes or believe Scripture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted March 20, 2009 Members Share Posted March 20, 2009 I would ask, are they really christians or do they just call themselves christians? Also I think that I've heard Doug Batchelor, Shawn Boonstra and others deal with medical phenomenon of this experience. Can't tell you off the top of my head without finding the DVD of these sermons. But I think what Gerry has mentioned are very good points. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
True-believer Posted March 21, 2009 Author Share Posted March 21, 2009 But the Bible does, "Eternal life starts now, as soon as you invite Christ into your life." So the Christian never really dies, because he has eternal life... So the Christian must transcend straight to heaven... if he has eternal life... What are your thoughts??? Quote Luke 4:19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lushi Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Hi true-believer, The bible is clear on the state of the dead. My thought on this is to stick to what the bible says (1Th 4:10-18). Remember the first and second deaths (physical) mentioned in the bible Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted March 21, 2009 Moderators Share Posted March 21, 2009 Yes, but what about the after-death experiences Christians have claimed to have? What happens when the time comes that Satan will impersonate Christ? Do we have such faith in the Bible as God's word that we will believe in the Bible rather than in our eyes? That's the point we have to come to. Otherwise Satan will have plenty of deceptions ready for us. As for the after-death experiences, those can be manipulated by Satan, and they can also be explained naturally. I have never heard of anyone having those experiences who believed that the dead do not know anything. There are a number of good books on the subject written by medical doctors. The bottom line is that Satan is the father of lies and he was able to convinced Adam and Eve to believe his lies as well as 1/3 of the angels. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Abraham must have a very large bosom indeed. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted March 21, 2009 Moderators Share Posted March 21, 2009 Either that or when people die their bodies become really tiny. But seriously I have heard that some people think "Abraham's bosom" is a special place where good people go when they die. It isn't exactly heaven. No one seems to be sure exactly where or what it is. Sounds confusing to me. The last I checked, the buried dead stay buried until the resurrection. But here we have the angels carrying dead bodies to Abraham's bosom, if we take it literally. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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