Life After Death???

[jasd]

>>31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

That in Red will tell you what this parable is all about....<<

Indeed, the story amplifies upon the economy of those of whom Jesus Christ spoke. He rose from the dead – and

until this day – all [good] things pertaining to Him is disbelieved by those of the economy of Law.

[jasd]

>>Let's say you'll die and go up into Heaven.

Will you be happy there, seeing the misery and strife on Earth?

I don't think I would be happy, sitting in Paradise and watching my family struggle through hard times...<<

I don’t think the believer in ‘life after death’ is forwarding the concept that the redeemed NT spirit is in either Paradise or heaven – voyeuristically peering upon the activities of this earth – especially those of his loved ones.

[John317]

I don’t think the believer in ‘life after death’ is forwarding the concept that the redeemed NT spirit is in either Paradise or heaven – voyeuristically peering upon the activities of this earth – especially those of his loved ones.

If you go to the Catholic church, for instance, you will be able to meet many people who believe that their dead mother or father is aware of the suffering of their children here on earth.

[guibox]

I don’t think the believer in ‘life after death’ is forwarding the concept that the redeemed NT spirit is in either Paradise or heaven – voyeuristically peering upon the activities of this earth – especially those of his loved ones.

This is indeed the case, jasd. I can't count the number of times I've heard people in real life and movies say, 'Uncle Jim is smiling down on us now. We know he wants us to do this' or some variation of such.

The thing is, is that people don't really think for themselves the ramifications of what they are saying. They've automatically accepted what they believe as a given and usually just frivolously throw variations on the argument out there without giving much thought to theological, philosophical, logical and rational arguments that might be to the contrary. Most don't even know what the bible says about the matter.

[B Humble]

>>Let's say you'll die and go up into Heaven.

Will you be happy there, seeing the misery and strife on Earth?

I don't think I would be happy, sitting in Paradise and watching my family struggle through hard times...<<

I don’t think the believer in ‘life after death’ is forwarding the concept that the redeemed NT spirit is in either Paradise or heaven – voyeuristically peering upon the activities of this earth – especially those of his loved ones.

Both the question and the answer is a carnal totally earthly fleshly view of both this life and the next. I wonder if you think GOD and the ANGELS can be happy while viewing the miseries on earth. Do you suppose they are all in mourning? No, when a person dies, the veil over the soul is lifted and he sees life from an entirely different perspective. The righteous judgment of sin is seen from God's point of view and the momentary SUFFERINGS of this life is seen from an eternal perspective to be "not to be compared" the eternal rewards.

The arguments presented by the Armstrongites and Adventist are carnal and foolish because they are they are the same GODLESS arguments USED BY THE ATHEISTS. The Adventist are actually preaching ATHEISM AND THEY ARE GLAD TO DO IT. T

[B Humble]

Originally Posted By: B Humble

This is your opinion, and you're welcome to it if that's what you think, but it's not evidence. Our beliefs must be based on Bible evidence, not on what we would like to believe or on what we think God ought to do.

Answer: The problem is that Adventist read the scriptures with a carnal mind darkened by the gospel of the carnal atheism. And they have WILLFULLY CHOSEN to shut their eyes to the truth. Thus from Genesis to Revelation, they have no idea what even DEATH is much less eternal life.

The truth is that Seventh-day Adventists teach exactly what the Bible teaches, that all people will be judged and receive their rewards, just as Rev. 20: 11-15 and Ecc. 12: 14 say.

Where we differ is that you believe the lost will be punished with eternal life in pain, whereas Seventh-day Adventists teach that people will be punished with eternal death. We agree with the Bible. Romans 6: 23-- "The wages of sin is death." It doesn't say the wages of sin is endless suffering.

Again, you have no IDEA WHAT DEATH IS. You think it's annhilation or nonexistence. It's not. You have no idea why Paul could write, "while you were DEAD in your sins, CHRIST DIED FOR YOU." They gloss over verses without thinking or understanding the impact.

I know that you believe death is consciousness, a form of life; but that is not what the Bible teaches. In the plainest language possible, God tells us that "the dead do not know anything." Ecc. 9: 5.

Answer: The quotation of Ecc.9:5 is a beautiful simply fabulous example of Adventist gross neglect for context scripture. Solomon writing from the CARNAL view point of how everything appears to the CARNAL MAN..ie.. "everything under the sun", makes the point that from a carnal man's view it appears that the dead know not anything. And then the Adventist quote it as gospel because that is exactly how they view everything from CARNAL VIEW of how everything looks ON THE SURFACE, JUST LIKE ATHEIST!!!

If the dead are actually alive and aware and continue to be capable of responding in some fashion, the concept of "dying to sin" would not make sense. See Romans 6: 2-11. The whole significance of the phrase "dying to sin" comes from the fact that the dead can't and don't respond at all. The illustration only makes sense if the dead are unconscious and cannot respond to stimuli.

Answer: your statement is totally untrue! Paul says that Christ died for you while YOU WERE DEAD IN YOUR SINS, yet you are ALIVE PHYSICALLY.

It would be different if you could show from the Bible that God made humans with an immortal spirit or soul, but the Bible says no such thing. See Gen. 2: 7. Dust + breath of life= a living soul, or living being. The idea is that we are living souls, not that we have an immortal soul living within a body. So when a person dies, here's what happens: living soul- breath of life= dust. That is precisely what God told Adam and Eve would happen when they died. See Gen. 3: 19. It is also in Ecc. 12: 7: "Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit [breath] will return to God who have it." Notice here that the breath, or spirit, of all mankind-- both of the wicked as well as the good-- returns to God. Ecc. 9: 2 says that the same event (death) happens to the righteous and the wicked. Death is the same for all.

The ultimate difference between the the righteous and the wicked is shown in the resurrection and in the judgement, not in the first death. See again Ecc. 12: 14 and also John 11:11-14, 23.

Answer: Once carnallity rules for the method of reading scripture by the Adventist. Who refuse to read the bible in it's overall context before reading scripture in its precise context. Rather, context is completely thrown out the window while the spend their life PROOF-TEXTING 1 VERSE AT A TIME WITH A TOTAL DISREGARD TO CONTEXT.

In the above quotation over verses, my friend tries to make the death of the righteous and the death of the wicked equal. As if the righteous have no reward after death are treated exactly as the wicked. Notice: 2Peter 2: 9 Specifically says that the wicked are “RESERVED”. The translation of “reserved” is in the present, active, infinitive form, which means that he wicked are BEING HELD CAPTIVE CONTINUOUSLY” . The RSV correctly translates the verse to understand that the WICKED ARE “BEING KEPT UNDER PUNISHMENT” while they wait for the DAY OF JUDGMENT to be punished. Quoting “9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trial, and to KEEP THE UNRIGHTEOUS UNDER PUNISHMENT until the day of judgment 10

When the day of judgment comes the wicked are not annihilated. They are “tormented day and night forever and ever” . Rev.14:11 and Rev.20:10. Rev.4:8 uses the term “day and night for ever and ever” to clearly mean the UNENDING praising of God by the Angels in heaven. And so it is correct to understand the same “day and night for ever and ever” as the unending torment of the wicked in Rev.14:11 and Rev.20:10 As Christ clearly says in Matt.25:46 “These (the wicked) shall go into unending punishment but the righteous into life unending” . Both words are “aion” which clearly means UNENDING in both places.

[guibox]

Once carnallity rules for the method of reading scripture by the Adventist. Who refuse to read the bible in it's overall context before reading scripture in its precise context. Rather, context is completely thrown out the window while the spend their life PROOF-TEXTING 1 VERSE AT A TIME WITH A TOTAL DISREGARD TO CONTEXT.

[jasd]

>>Let's try the literal reading and see if it makes sense:

1) The beggar, Lazarus, dies and is literally carried bodily by the angels to Abraham's bosom (v. 22).<<

Writ does not tell us that the angels carried the body/tabernacle of Lazarus..., it tells only that the beggar died and was carried by the angels. One might enquire as to whether Writ meant to convey the thought of a carnal body, though deceased, being carried or whether it was the spirit/constituent self/animate vitality of Lazarus, which was conveyed by the angels.

>>2) The rich dies, and is buried in the ground. However, his physical body is somehow being literally tormented in Hades.<<

Again, Writ does not provide any information whereby we might assume a literal transport of the rich man’s “physical body” to the ‘torment in Hades’.

>>He has actual eyes and could literally see Abraham's bosom and Lazarus lying in his bosom (v. 23).<<

Indeed, even as Gd, being Spirit, seemingly has that by which to see – even that by which to walk; He also, appeared to have a preference for the ‘coolness’ of the day...

>>3) The rich man cries out and begs Abraham to have Lazarus dip the tip of his literal finger in real water and cool the rich man's literal tongue (v. 24).

So far a literal reading of the text means that both men were physically transported to their rewards. The rich man in Hades is suffering in a real flame of fire which obviously does not burn up a man's tongue or body.

Also it is evident that people in either place are able to see one another and to literally talk back and forth.<<

Our best understanding of Holy Writ informs us that we are spirit/souls within the framework of a carnal, fleshly ‘tabernacle’. It is when we are ‘disrobed’ from our earthly flesh (tabernacle) that we may experience what seems to be a physical, literal (parallel) world – which can be experienced only ‘as spirit’. Let us remember that

angels ate – manna. When the eyes of Elisha’s servant were opened – he saw upon the mountains – horses and ‘chariots’. Seems that the ‘other side’ is one where there is a physicality that parallels ours – after a manner; being different in one salient factor, that being, those habitants on the ‘other side’ seem to possess a sort of hyperplasma, rather than blood – as we know it. (perhaps it is that a higher frequency influences the nature of blood – causing its non-fluidity)

Lastly, there is a fire that burns but does not consume. There is also a fire by which the disciples were baptized...

>>4) There is literally a great pit (a wide chasm or deep rift) lying between Hades and Abraham's bosom, which prevents anyone from crossing over from one place to another (v. 26). But despite this physical separation, they are close enough that they can somehow easily see each other and hold conversation.<<

First, Abraham’s bosom must be understood to be metaphoric. Per “close enough”: indeed, that closeness may be but a gossamer veil – its thickness measured by but a few wavelengths. Having said that, note that

Writ only informs us that it were ‘Abraham’ and the rich man who conversed.

>>No wonder so many Bible scholars believe this is a parable and is not to be understood as teaching what literally happens when a person dies.<<

Jesus Christ told His disciples that He spoke in “parables” that ‘they’, in hearing, would not understand – and in seeing, they would not perceive... The question obtains – was, or was not Jesus Christ attempting to communicate understandably with His listeners? if so, then we must assume that He was utilizing a language that was understood – only diverging by employing a form of speech which trades upon the poetic and the metaphoric – yet, remaining integral.

I am not saying that Jesus Christ was not building a story to culminate with the 24th verse, “If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.” The question obtaining would be,

would He, willy-nilly, appeal to untrue elements to advance a denouement (or do we miss the point? it being, rather, Gd’s will is that He saves whom He wills – regardless of the blessings of worldly riches). Should that be so,

one must revisit one’s points of condemnation vis-à-vis ‘untrue elements’ within the Universal church.

[jasd]

>>1. It has prayers to the dead<<

Though I am not necessarily negating the idea of prayers to those who have died..., I ask, does Luke 16 relate "prayers to the dead", or prayers among the dead?

>>2. There is no appeal at all to God - in the parable the sovereign of the dead is Abraham - not God.<<

Live by/in the Law, die by/in the Law.

>>3. Abraham even has sovereign control over who can be raised from the dead.<<

Luke 16:27 informs us of the rich man's belief – which does not necessarily translate that as fact.

[jasd]

>>from logic alone:

1. What's the point of the resurrection if some disembodied spirit can already go to heaven and enjoy it right after death?<<

That we might be rewarded with the same glorious body that Jesus Christ possesses?

>>2. If you had been Lazarus or any of the dead that had gone to enjoy the pleasures of heaven and someone called you back, would you be happy? I'd be livid, even at Jesus if I had been Lazarus!<<

Is one who’s gone to the ‘other side’ disobliged from serving Gd? Wasn’t Lazarus’ death and recall from the tomb meant to glorify Gd? Should that have been so, I imagine Lazarus would have more than willing to return – however, temporarily...

>>3. If our Christian friends who believe in an immortal soul are correct, then their belief in eternally burning hell and eternal suffering would be correct also, in which case, that would make God the most satanic being in the whole universe for torturing sinners forever & ever, ad infinitum, for a short lifetime of wickedness.<<

That would be true for those who believe in the vindictiveness of Gd; however, it was Gd who stated, “Is my hand so short that it cannot save?” [/paraphrased] The answer, of course, is in the negative. Moreover,

does not Writ tell us that Gd will finish what He has begun? and is His work not that of redemption? The question remaining would be,

other than Jesus Christ and Him crucified, what are the means by which He will accomplish that redemption?

>>4. And if they are correct about hell & death or rather non-death, that would also make God a liar who warned: "The soul who sins shall die."<<

As has been pointed out – the soul is and includes the fleshly tabernacle; that dies.

[jasd]

>>I yet to read of someone with near-death experience go to hell. I'll stick with Scripture.<<

...not saying the experience validates the premise; however, there are many whose NDE took them to that outer darkness; there are the books, which have compiled these experiences.

>>The time is coming when we will either believe our eyes or believe Scripture.<<

Indeed, should “Scripture” be rightly discerned...

[jasd]

>>What happens when the time comes that Satan will impersonate Christ? Do we have such faith in the Bible as God's word that we will believe in the Bible rather than in our eyes?<<

Writ will often bear witness to our eyes. Example:

Is 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, ...

Chariots? in the plural? as in from horizon to horizon? That’s UFOs! flying saucers, yes?

When latter day events overtake us – we might do well to pray for discernment.

>>That's the point we have to come to. Otherwise Satan will have plenty of deceptions ready for us.<<

I don’t know about others, but as for me and my family, we will believe Writ – and not the expositions of vainglorious men who have gone before us...

>>As for the after-death experiences, those can be manipulated by Satan,<<

Though that may be rightly so – that still remains surmise.

>>...and they can also be explained naturally.<<

That reminds me of “neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

The ‘light’ so frequently encountered has been laid to a forwarded ‘fact’ that the last portion of the brain to shut down in death is that portion associated with light. That, however, does not explain the still remaining cogitative aspects remaining. That, also, does not explain the unexplainable – except to recognize the ‘naturalness’ of the experience.

>>I have never heard of anyone having those experiences who believed that the dead do not know anything.<< [/ed.jasd]

Without expanding upon the singular nature of the bolded..., that is found in Ecclesiastes 9, yes? That is OT literature, yes?

>>There are a number of good books on the subject written by medical doctors. The bottom line is that Satan is the father of lies and he was able to convinced Adam and Eve to believe his lies...<<

Umm, John317, I was under the impression that it was Eve who “believed his lies...” Speaking of “the bottom line” – as pertains medical doctors, they do not know...

>>...as well as 1/3 of the angels.<<

We do not know, as fact, the number of angels Satan caused to fall. The third of the stars mentioned in Revelation could as easily mean other than angels.

[phkrause]

When the day of judgment comes the wicked are not annihilated. They are “tormented day and night forever and ever” . Rev.14:11 and Rev.20:10. Rev.4:8 uses the term “day and night for ever and ever” to clearly mean the UNENDING praising of God by the Angels in heaven. And so it is correct to understand the same “day and night for ever and ever” as the unending torment of the wicked in Rev.14:11 and Rev.20:10 As Christ clearly says in Matt.25:46 “These (the wicked) shall go into unending punishment but the righteous into life unending”

So I guess than, according to what your saying above than, that would mean that Sodom & Gomorrah are still burning today. Because didn't God say that they would burn forever and ever? Just asking

pk

[jasd]

>>But seriously I have heard that some people think "Abraham's bosom" is a special place where good people go when they die. It isn't exactly heaven. No one seems to be sure exactly where or what it is. Sounds confusing to me.<<

Metaphor.

>>The last I checked, the buried dead stay buried until the resurrection.<<

Buried bodies do; however, I am familiar with a dogma that confutes the very words of Jesus Christ, which same words inform us that no one had ascended to heaven except that he first came down from heaven. [/paraphrased]

That dogma would have us believe that the dead do not stay buried.

>>But here we have the angels carrying dead bodies to Abraham's bosom, if we take it literally.<<

If we take Luke 16 literally, we find no support that dead bodies were carried by angels...

[jasd]

>>Paul describes death for the believer as "sleep" in 1Thess4.<<

It is well that “sleep” is in quotes. St Paul also advises us that Gd will bring those same “sleeping” in Jesus – with Him when He comes. That tells me that those ‘sleeping in Jesus Christ’ are presently at a place that is near-to-hand with Gd. That being so, one asks,

is that ‘sleep’ one of insensateness? ...don’t think so.

>>Christ describes death for the believer as "sleep" in john 11.<<

Subsequently, Jesus Christ stated, “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?” (Jn 11:25,26)

“...though he were dead” – that is, those already in the grave – shall live again – in the resurrection.

“...whosoever liveth and believeth in me” – that is, those yet living and believe in me.

“...shall never die” – that is emphasized in the Greek with the double negative, ipso...: he (or she) shall never, never die; shall never, not die; shall not ever die. That is a forceful exclamatory! One, living and believing in Jesus Christ – shall never, ever die. That said, it remains that

we witness our loved ones in Jesus Christ die. But in fact, what do we really see dying? Can we see the breath Gd gave? or the spirit? In fact,

we only know that Jesus Christ used ‘sleep’ as a euphemism and that He stated in the emphatic that we shall never, never die. What, of ourselves/our being, continues...?

>>Paul argues in 1Cor 15 that IF there is no resurrection then ALL saints who have died - are wiped out!<<

No one argues against a resurrection.

>>Christ argues in Matt 22 that the ONLY way for God to have been the "God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob" when talking to Moses - was for there to be a future resurrection.<<

There was a future resurrection when the graves were opened at the time of Jesus Christ’s death – and there will yet be others – in the future...

>>The point made in John 11 about "Lazarus is DEAD" also equated to "Lazarus SLEEPS I go that I may wake him" is the SAME argument made in the SAME chapter by Christ to Mary saying "he who believes in me shall never die EVEN though he is DEAD". Christ was speaking to the resurrection.<<

Read above - John 11:25,26

>>He is also speaking to the fact that the spirit of man does not evaporate at death -- it goes to God.<<

There you have it; however, do not confuse the breath and that which is bound with the soul as bone to marrow.

[jasd]

>>Moses and Elijah "visit earth" in Matt 17.<<

Jesus Christ stated that that witnessed on the Mount of Transfiguration was a vision. It may be interpreted as a spectacle; however, Jesus Christ reveals elsewhere that “no man hath ascended unto heaven except that he first descended from heaven” [/paraphrased] That would have included both Moses and Elijah (unless there is esoterica on display here and Moses and Elijah traveled back in time from a yet future resurrection - or they manifested from somewhere else on earth - being alive in their spirit, yet never having been in Paradise or Heaven).

>>(God did say He would send Elijah - apparently He was serious about that after all).<<

Did not Jesus Christ allude to St John the Baptist as being ‘Elijah’?

>>2Cor 4:4 Satan is called "the god of this world". So this is a universal "war zone". I don't think those saints in heaven just pop in for a picnick. Satan offerred to GIVE the world back to Christ in Matt 4.<<

I would like to respond to the above but find it somewhat elusive in meaning.

[jasd]

>>51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall ...<<

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me.

[jasd]

>>If you go to the Catholic church, for instance, you will be able to meet many people who believe that their dead mother or father is aware of the suffering of their children here on earth.<<

Perhaps, I spoke hastily; however, though it is prima facie that the Catholic who places his supplication before that of this Saint or that Saint expects a certain awareness on the part of the Saints – I’ve not met the Catholic who believes that his or her loved ones are peering upon them from Paradise or heaven...

[jasd]

>>This is indeed the case, jasd. I can't count the number of times I've heard people in real life and movies say, 'Uncle Jim is smiling down on us now. We know he wants us to do this' or some variation of such.<<

My mother passed on a few years back. I often refer to her saying that she is dancing in the fields of glory with her brothers and sisters. Of course, it is not a thing I am given to know; it is simply poetic license or the liberty of expectations. That, by my reading of Writ – is permissible.

>>The thing is, is that people don't really think for themselves the ramifications of what they are saying. They've automatically accepted what they believe as a given and usually just frivolously throw variations on the argument out there without giving much thought to theological, philosophical, logical and rational arguments that might be to the contrary. Most don't even know what the bible says about the matter.<<

I find what you say true to an extent, and are given to by – both sides of the equation. I, will, at times,

set forth the undefined – to see what might scare up.

[guibox]

It is well that “sleep” is in quotes. St Paul also advises us that Gd will bring those same “sleeping” in Jesus – with Him when He comes. That tells me that those ‘sleeping in Jesus Christ’ are presently at a place that is near-to-hand with Gd.

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

I don’t think the believer in ‘life after death’ is forwarding the concept that the redeemed NT spirit is in either Paradise or heaven – voyeuristically peering upon the activities of this earth – especially those of his loved ones.

>>Both the question and the answer is a carnal totally earthly fleshly view of both this life and the next.<<

Perhaps, it is indeed – as you say; however, it is the best one might do – considering the limiting parameters of Holy Writ and the ability of a three-pound universe to parse the matter.

>>I wonder if you think GOD and the ANGELS can be happy while viewing the miseries on earth.<<

Of course, you address the question I attempted to answer. That stated, do you think that neither Gd nor the ANGELS can find anything on earth to give them joy?

>>Do you suppose they are all in mourning?<<

“They” meaning Gd and the angels? No, I do not believe they are in mourning – continuously.

>>No, when a person dies, the veil over the soul is lifted and he sees life from an entirely different perspective.<<

I find myself agreeing with you.

>>The righteous judgment of sin is seen from God's point of view and the momentary SUFFERINGS of this life is seen from an eternal perspective to be "not to be compared" the eternal rewards.<<

I would qualify the exactitude, which infuses the statement. We would still be short of Gd’s own understanding. For example: Spirits under the altar question and exhibit earthly attitudes...

>>The arguments presented by the Armstrongites and Adventist are carnal and foolish because they are they are the same GODLESS arguments USED BY THE ATHEISTS.<<

I confess that you will have to bring the above a bit closer to my understanding that I might respond.

>>The Adventist are actually preaching ATHEISM AND THEY ARE GLAD TO DO IT.<<

Atheism. Simply, isn’t atheism philosophical in sense? and denies dieties, especially the Diety of Xtians? Ipso facto, non belief... therefor, it is moot to even discuss the Biblical perspective on life after death, yes?

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

It is well that “sleep” is in quotes. St Paul also advises us that Gd will bring those same “sleeping” in Jesus – with Him when He comes. That tells me that those ‘sleeping in Jesus Christ’ are presently at a place that is near-to-hand with Gd.

>>This is a prime example of proof texting and the second most misunderstood and erroneously interpreted text next to 2 Corinthians 5:8<<

“Proof texting” – wha’s dat? The ‘contextual’ dialogic shibboleth? Not so. ‘Context’ is the sum of its parts, some of those parts separated, isolated, and independent from its ‘contextual' parameters. That said, one must

first realize the euphemistic character of the Biblical ‘sleep’, or ‘he bought the farm’, ‘pushing up daisies’, ‘planted’, ‘gone to Beulahland’, etc. ‘Sleep’ is simply more genteelly – literary. Second, one must

recognize the very words of Jesus Christ in John 11:25,26. Third, one must also bear in mind

the sea change represented by the crucifixion event. Let’s just dwell upon these three aspects and note that

the discussion re life after death can no longer be defined by OT constraints. There is now a New Covenant with man. That is not to say that man ceased, entirely, to exist in any manner, way, shape or form – before the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

So, tell me, how do you parse 2 Corinthians 5:8?

>>To take this phrase, ‘Even so them also which sleep in Jesus’ to mean 'Jesus will bring from heaven the souls of loved ones' makes this a contextual island that makes the entire passage redundant.<<

Again, not so. Text is very specific. The chapter employs the four: Christ, Jesus, Lord and Gd; that is, Jesus Christ, Lord and Redeemer Gd.

First, Christ the anointed, the promise. Second, Jesus, the humble servant redeemer. Third, Lord and Gd in glory. ...not entirely redundant, yes?

>>First and foremost, the passage says 'Will GOD bring with Him'. However we see that God the Father is not coming to take His children, but Christ the Lord.<<

Text does not state that it is Gd the Father being referenced. Textual collation informs us that it will be Jesus Christ, Gd – who is the central figure of the Parousia. Anyway, are you saying

that Jesus Christ is not Gd? and that neither the Apostles nor St Paul thought Him not Gd?

Please check the NT references that state that Gd raised Jesus Christ from the tomb and compare with...

Jn 10:17 ...I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

Jn 10:18 ...I have power to lay it down and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

(Compare)

Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

>>Second, Paul is saying 'Do not sorrow as others who have no hope' right before this. Paul's desire is twofold:<<

1 Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

>>1) That they know what has happened to their loved ones

2) That they don't sorrow like those who have no hope

Then he goes on to explain that they will live again...by resurrecting.<<

Herein you do stray from text. You supply “by resurrecting”. The modifier exists between the phrases “we believe” and “even so” as in ‘we believe, even so’ – rather than with the phrases “died and rose again” and "even so". The text does not state that

Gd will resurrect those who sleep in Christ - to meet Jesus Christ, Gd – in the air. It plainly states that Gd will bring them [from there to here, thence to hither] – not resurrect them.

>>To have the souls in heaven come down completely takes away Paul's emphasis on the resurrection and makes it meaningless.<<

St Paul’s “emphasis” does not lie with “resurrection” per se.

>>Why worry about sorrowing when they are already in heaven?<<

First, St Paul’s primary concern was with regards to their ignorance on the matter of those who’d fallen ‘asleep’. Second, it is obvious that they ‘sorrowed’ because they were ignorant of the disposition of their loved ones who’d fallen ‘asleep’. St Paul, because of the hostility of the resident Jews and a premature flight from Thessalonica, seemed to have been unable to address the singular matter of those ‘fallen asleep in Jesus’ Christ. He redressed the situation with both letter and the dispatch of St Timothy – to pastor the Thessalonians.

>>And yet Paul shows the hope is in resurrection, not immortality of the soul.<<

It appears that might be true re those who fell asleep ‘in Christ’.

Job 19:25 For I know [that] my redeemer liveth, and [that] he shall stand at the latter [day] upon the earth:

Job 19:26 And [though] after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Jn 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

>>Third, the phrase before is explained by this phrase. One reiterates the other. 'FOR IF (this setting up a connecting thought here) we believe that Jesus DIED and ROSE again, EVEN SO (or in the same manner of), them also which sleep in Jesus (the bible makes it clear the dead are asleep and need to be awoken from their graves)will God bring with Him. (The Bible says Jesus rose by the power of the Father who resurrected Him).<<

Read above re ‘modifier’... and Jn 10:17,18.

>>Simply put, as Jesus died and rose again, so those who have died will also rise just like Jesus did. The entire passage before sets this up, and the verses after show that this indeed does happen. There is no room for a body/soul reunification. Paul is speaking of the power and hope of the resurrection according to Christ's example.<< [/ed.jasd]

...and the continuing blessedness of those who ‘sleep in Jesus the Christ’ – two different things.

>>The Message Bible gets it spot on (go figure)<<

Quote:

Quote:

Since Jesus died and broke loose from the grave, God will most certainly bring back to life those who died in Jesus.

“Message Bible”? Indeed, go figure...

Interesting?

Westminster Standards Catechism: Question #37

What benefits do believers receive from Christ at death? A: The souls of believers are at their death made perfect in holiness, (1) and do immediately pass into glory, (2) and their bodies, being still united in Christ, (3) do rest in their graves, (4) till the resurrection.

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

That is not to say that man ceased, entirely, to exist in any manner, way, shape or form – before Redemption.

I, once more, recourse to my thread ‘Potpourri’...

On OBEs:

--EGW proposed that a soul could be both separate and cognizant apart from its physical ‘tent’. Nevertheless,

how does Writ address the matter?

Could Gd-inspired Gen 15:12 be relating anything other than exactly what it implies, that is, When Gd caused that “a deep sleep fell upon Abram … lo, an horror of great darkness…” , well,

did Gd covenant with the tabernacle Abram --wherein he doth groan, if you will, --or with his spirit (the animate vitality, the constituent man)? What does Writ say?

Gen 15:9 And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon. v10 And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not. v11 And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away. v12 And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him. … v17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces. v18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram,…

Wow, THAT! is some kind of BLOOD convenanting!

Gen 15:12 …a deep sleep fell upon Abram … lo, an horror of great darkness… (‘valley of the shadow of death’?)

Gen 15:17 …behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces. (…’pears to bear the somewhat syllogistic hallmark of an OBE)

Prov 20:27 The spirit of man [is] the candle {5216} of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

candle: Strong’s #5216. … nerah, nay-raw; from a prim. Root [see 5214; 5135] prop. Mean. to glisten; a lamp (i.e. the burner) or light (lit. or fig.):--candle, lamp, light.

Alternately: -- Gen 15:17 …behold Gd (a smoking furnace), and the spirit of Abram (a burning lamp) that passed between those pieces.

Bbbut, “…rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” (Mat 10:28)

Will destroy? or, able to destroy? Which is it?

[jasd]

jasd 12:12 There are more things in Writ, Horatio, than are dreamt in your philosophy...

Have a blessed and sanctified Easter, the accepted Resurrection day of the Lord.

[Gerr]

>>I yet to read of someone with near-death experience go to hell. I'll stick with Scripture.<<

...not saying the experience validates the premise; however, there are many whose NDE took them to that outer darkness; there are the books, which have compiled these experiences.

>>The time is coming when we will either believe our eyes or believe Scripture.<<

Indeed, should “Scripture” be rightly discerned...

Scripture is pretty clear to me what it says: "The living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing," Eccl 9:5 NIV