Life After Death???

[jasd]

>>Eccl 9:5 NIV<<

Have you noticed the thematic "under the sun", which flows through the Book of Ecclesiastes? As I recall, there are at least four times the theme “under the sun” is found in the ninth chapter alone... once immediately before the fifth verse; that is, the third verse.

That is not to say that it is not as you seem to understand the text..., however, I ask you to consider that

Ecclesiastes was written quite some time before the Lord Redeemer went to the cross and – thereby, legitimized the right for the one in Jesus the Christ – to pass from ‘death of his or her tabernacle of flesh’ – to life. To, as stated in Writ,

be with the Lord – not as though unclothed, as it were,

but to be "clothed upon"..., "upon" what? and how immediately after one is "absent from the body"?

[B Humble]

>>1. It has prayers to the dead<<

Though I am not necessarily negating the idea of prayers to those who have died..., I ask, does Luke 16 relate "prayers to the dead", or prayers among the dead?

>>2. There is no appeal at all to God - in the parable the sovereign of the dead is Abraham - not God.<<

Live by/in the Law, die by/in the Law.

>>3. Abraham even has sovereign control over who can be raised from the dead.<<

Luke 16:27 informs us of the rich man's belief – which does not necessarily translate that as fact.

Christ offered himself as a sacrifice for the dead thereby removing all doubt that the dead were aided by the sacrifice made by Christ.

[Taylor]

We don't need to pray for the dead as their destiny is forever sealed since they are just sleeping till the second coming .However, it is true that Jesus died for all humanity past and present...i.e. everyone who is saved is saved by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted By: True-believer

I am currently doing a study on Eternal Torment, and what the word "Forever" really means...

It literally means "to time indefinite" and is defined by its context. You might want to look it up in the Bible concordance and see how it's used. When used of mortals, it means as long as we live, or for a long time. When used in reference to God, who is immortal, it means "without end."

Forever has more than one meaning..

1. Eternal..i.e. God is immortal..without end.

2. While life lasts..(i.e. slaves were slaves to their masters forever...but that was while they had life as there won't be any slaves in heaven. Samuel was lent to the Lord to be in the temple of God forever, and he isn't still ministering in a temple for the Jews...it meant for as long as he lived.

3. The fire of Sodom and Gomorrah was "eternal" but Sodom and Gomorrah aren't still burning..because eternal or "forever" meant untill it was "burned up"

[B Humble]

Originally Posted By: jasd

>>I yet to read of someone with near-death experience go to hell. I'll stick with Scripture.<<

...not saying the experience validates the premise; however, there are many whose NDE took them to that outer darkness; there are the books, which have compiled these experiences.

>>The time is coming when we will either believe our eyes or believe Scripture.<<

Indeed, should “Scripture” be rightly discerned...

Scripture is pretty clear to me what it says: "The living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing," Eccl 9:5 NIV

So, Gerry, do you also believe the scripture from Solomon that says, "ALL IS VANITY" ???? d

Ecclesiastes 1:2-3 ( KJV ) 2Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity. 3What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?

Do you now believe that all the work a man does is vanity?

It is very clear Solomon is speaking as a CARNAL man's view point, AS LIFE SEEMS ON THE EARTH AND NOT LIKE IT REALLY IS.

[Taylor]

Yes, everything done apart from God is vanity. Everything that does not have "eternal meaning" is just a "chasing after the wind" of honor, money, prestige. So yes it is easy to take both texts and understand them both.

[B Humble]

We don't need to pray for the dead as their destiny is forever sealed since they are just sleeping till the second coming .However, it is true that Jesus died for all humanity past and present...i.e. everyone who is saved is saved by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross.

So, you agree that Christ offered himself as a sacrifice for the dead. Do you also believe that the followers of Christ should "walk even as he walked" as scripture says??

[B Humble]

Yes, everything done apart from God is vanity. Everything that does not have "eternal meaning" is just a "chasing after the wind" of honor, money, prestige. So yes it is easy to take both texts and understand them both.

Ahha, I noticed you QUALIFIED our answer.

[B Humble]

Originally Posted By: Taylor

We don't need to pray for the dead as their destiny is forever sealed since they are just sleeping till the second coming .However, it is true that Jesus died for all humanity past and present...i.e. everyone who is saved is saved by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross.

So, you agree that Christ offered himself as a sacrifice for the dead. Do you also believe that the followers of Christ should "walk even as he walked" as scripture says??

HMMM, if "their fates were sealed since they are just sleeping"...then why did Christ offer a sacrifice for them???

[Taylor]

I know many have posted a lot of evidence from the Bible, becuase the subject of death is very clear, but here are some texts for you to consider:

Psalm 146:4 says that the day a person dies his thoughts die too

Psalsm 29:17 in death you take nothing with you and no glory goes with you.

Acts 2:29-34 talks about David not having ascended to heaven

Psalm 115:17 says that dead praise not the Lord (if they were in heaven they would certainly praise the Lord)

Isa 38:18,19 says there is no praise or hope in the grace

Job 7:9,10 talks about he who does does not come and return to his house anymore, neither shall his place know him any more. (So anyone who has talked to a "dead ancestor" or "friend" is not talking to that friend at all, but to something far more dangerous.)

There are many many other such texts....many of which have already been mentioned.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted By: B Humble

So, you agree that Christ offered himself as a sacrifice for the dead. Do you also believe that the followers of Christ should "walk even as he walked" as scripture says?? [/quote']

HMMM, if "their fates were sealed since they are just sleeping"...then why did Christ offer a sacrifice for them???

Their salvation was sealed...based on the eventual death of Jesus Christ. Those who had chosen to follow Christ will be saved but only by the merits of Jesus death. No one is saved any other way than by the death on the cross. His sacrifice was complete for them and for all future people who weren't born yet when Jesus did die.

(Again, the problem does not lie in salvation through Jesus's death on the cross, but a missunderstanding of what constitutes "death" and the "second chance theory" of the popular belief of the rapture and the 7 years of tribulation...where we can have another chance. There is no second chance like that...so then the subject of the judgement and all has to be studied as well. But praise the Lord he has not left us in doubt on any of these things because the Bible is very clear in it's teachings on all these subjects and many others as well. Praying for the dead is a very mormon thing.)

[B Humble]

When the day of judgment comes the wicked are not annihilated. They are “tormented day and night forever and ever” . Rev.14:11 and Rev.20:10. Rev.4:8 uses the term “day and night for ever and ever” to clearly mean the UNENDING praising of God by the Angels in heaven. And so it is correct to understand the same “day and night for ever and ever” as the unending torment of the wicked in Rev.14:11 and Rev.20:10 As Christ clearly says in Matt.25:46 “These (the wicked) shall go into unending punishment but the righteous into life unending”

So I guess than, according to what your saying above than, that would mean that Sodom & Gomorrah are still burning today. Because didn't God say that they would burn forever and ever? Just asking

pk

2Peter 2 makes EXPLICITLY CLEAR THAT SODOM AND GOMORRAH'S INHABITANTS ARE BEING PUNISHED THIS VERY MOMENT,

2Peter 2: 9 Specifically says that the wicked are “RESERVED”. The translation of “reserved” is in the present, active, infinitive form, which means that he wicked are BEING HELD CAPTIVE CONTINUOUSLY” . The RSV correctly translates the verse to understand that the WICKED ARE “BEING KEPT UNDER PUNISHMENT” while they wait for the DAY OF JUDGMENT to be punished. Quoting “9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trial, and to KEEP THE UNRIGHTEOUS UNDER PUNISHMENT until the day of judgment 10

When the day of judgment comes the wicked are not annihilated. They are “tormented day and night forever and ever” . Rev.14:11 and Rev.20:10. Rev.4:8 uses the term “day and night for ever and ever” to clearly mean the UNENDING praising of God by the Angels in heaven. And so it is correct to understand the same “day and night for ever and ever” as the unending torment of the wicked in Rev.14:11 and Rev.20:10 As Christ clearly says in Matt.25:46 “These (the wicked) shall go into unending punishment but the righteous into life unending” . Both words are “aion” which clearly means UNENDING in both places.

[Taylor]

AGain this is the problem of a missunderstanding of the judgement. The judgement hadn't begun yet so they were reserved and God is a fair God who has (in the recent past) and is continuing to go through every name. He wants to make it clear to the universe that no mistake has been made. The decisions that people made here on this earth have affected their eternal destiny becuase God doesn't force anyone to be saved. Their rejection of God has eternal consequences but God does not ever burn any sinner forever, or it would mean that sin has eternal life and the

Bible is clear that "The soul that sinneth it shall die" Ezekiel 18:4. Also Malachi 4:3 says we will tread on the ashes of the whicked and Malachi 4:1 says that there will be left neither root nor branch...because it shall burn them up". You see, there is a hell where the consequences or the punishment is eternal but the fire or "torture" is not eternal..they will simply be burned up. Praise the Lord it is very clear in his word. God is not worse then Hitler...who tortured people...God has the ability to keep them a live, but he is not that kind of tyrant. He is after erradication of sin, not after torturing people throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity that is why they are "burned up" and why all "souls that sin wil die".

[B Humble]

I know many have posted a lot of evidence from the Bible, becuase the subject of death is very clear, but here are some texts for you to consider:

Psalm 146:4 says that the day a person dies his thoughts die too

Psalsm 29:17 in death you take nothing with you and no glory goes with you.

Acts 2:29-34 talks about David not having ascended to heaven

Psalm 115:17 says that dead praise not the Lord (if they were in heaven they would certainly praise the Lord)

Isa 38:18,19 says there is no praise or hope in the grace

Job 7:9,10 talks about he who does does not come and return to his house anymore, neither shall his place know him any more. (So anyone who has talked to a "dead ancestor" or "friend" is not talking to that friend at all, but to something far more dangerous.)

There are many many other such texts....many of which have already been mentioned.

Oh boy, here THEY come the "proof texts" JUMPING FROM ONE SCRIPTURE TO THE NEXT WITHOUT CONSIDERING ANY CONTEXT. I love how the Adventist avoid the new testament.

Ps.115 is referring to the persons plans.. they die because he isn't alive in the flesh on earth to carry out his "thoughts".

Isa.38:18-12 the same is true with this scripture.

Job himself said he would "WAIT" UNTIL he was raised.

ACTS 2: IS SPEAKING OF DAVID'S BODY NOT HIS SOUL..

[Taylor]

I am not avoiding the NT and there is very clear proof of death being a sleep in the NT. It is very clear in both testaments. Be careful with accusations. I feel that perhaps someon in your family or close friend became an SDA and you have been deeply frustrated with that,...maybe I am wrong...but based on previous posts I think that is possible. But please don't say that anyone of us is avoiding anything.

One has to understand what the soul is.....that is also Biblical and easy to understand and no there is no conscious part of any "saint" in heaven who died and was not "resurrected". Sure there are some people in heaven right now, Enoch, Moses and Elijah but they are the exception not the rule.

Death is like creation in reverse....I will do my best to get back here to explain it. I am in the middle of moving, however, and if I don't get back to packing and get to bed before midnight...I won't make our deadline, but I will try to get back to it, though many here could also explain it. It isn't SDA doctrine at all. I have met MANY people who have never heard of SDA's who have found the Sabbath, the state of the dead, the judgement etc just the same as we have found it, becuase they have found it in the Bible.

[B Humble]

AGain this is the problem of a missunderstanding of the judgement. The judgement hadn't begun yet and God is a fair God who has (in the recent past) and is continuing to go through every name. He wants to make it clear to the universe that no mistake has been made. The decisions that people made here on this earth have affected their eternal destiny becuase God doesn't force anyone to be saved. Their rejection of God has eternal consequences but God does not ever burn any sinner forever, or it would mean that sin has eternal life and the

Bible is clear that "The soul that sinneth it shall die" Ezekiel 18:4. Also Malachi 4:3 says we will tread on the ashes of the whicked and Malachi 4:1 says that there will be left neither root nor branch...because it shall burn them up". You see, there is a hell where the consequences or the punishment is eternal but the fire or "torture" is not eternal..they will simply be burned up. Praise the Lord it is very clear in his word. God is not worse then Hitler...who tortured people...God has the ability to keep them a live, but he is not that kind of tyrant. He is after erradication of sin, not after torturing people throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity that is why they are "burned up" and why all "souls that sin wil die".

You obviously don't know what death is. It's not annihilation. As well, you don't know even the differences between Hitler and God in judgment. Hitler was evil, God is righteous. His judgment is RIGHTEOUSNESS. Hitler did not create you, GOD DID. Hitler did not offer HIMSELF as a sacrifice for your sins and salvation CHRIST DID. GOD IS RIGHTEOUS TO TORMENT THE WICKED! As Paul writes in Romans 2:, the wicked don't receive annihilation But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, INDIGNATION AND WRATH, TRIBULATION AND ANGUISH! upon every soul of man that doeth evil, NOT SOUL SLEEP OR ANNIHILATION

[B Humble]

I am not avoiding the NT and there is very clear proof of death being a sleep in the NT. It is very clear in both testaments. Be careful with accusations. I feel that perhaps someon in your family or close friend became an SDA and you have been deeply frustrated with that,...maybe I am wrong...but based on previous posts I think that is possible. But please don't say that anyone of us is avoiding anything.

One has to understand what the soul is.....that is also Biblical and easy to understand and no there is no conscious part of any "saint" in heaven who died and was not "resurrected". Sure there are some people in heaven right now, Enoch, Moses and Elijah but they are the exception not the rule.

Death is like creation in reverse....I will do my best to get back here to explain it. I am in the middle of moving, however, and if I don't get back to packing and get to bed before midnight...I won't make our deadline, but I will try to get back to it, though many here could also explain it. It isn't SDA doctrine at all. I have met MANY people who have never heard of SDA's who have found the Sabbath, the state of the dead, the judgement etc just the same as we have found it, becuase they have found it in the Bible.

Sir, you are thoroughly confused person. Not only is it clear you don't know what death is, it's clear you don't know what sleep is. When a person is sleeping his BODY is at rest while his SPIRIT OR SOUL IS ALIVE AND WELL.

People find lots of false teachings they THINK they got from "the bible", it's because they lack understanding and knowledge. I've known a lot of people who WERE SDA but they LEFT THE SDA when they found out the bible didn't teach what the SDA said it taught. They found out they were only fooled for a time when they learned more about what the bible really teaches.

[B Humble]

What is sad, is that the SDA while imagining themselves to be a great teaching body of truth, they DON'T really know what "life" is in scripture. They don't know what "death" is in scripture and they don't know what "sleep" is in scripture.

The SDA when backed into a corner will claim that "eternal punishment" is actually eternal life.

They will claim that "death" is sleeping one minute and annihilation in the next minute .

Then, they claim the sleeping is death as well but then in the next breath they will say that death is not sleeping it's annihilation.

They constantly mix all 3 terms whimsically to suit their own purpose.

To top this off, they can't explain why God would possibly resurrection some evil person from his sleep ( which for all intents and purposes is exactly the same as annihilation TO THE SDA, SINCE ACCORDING TO THE SDA THEY HAVE NO SELF CONSCIOUSNESS OR AWARENESS) and only to annihilate them the next second.

What is certain, is the scripture is explicit that the wicked are punished in duration forever and some people will do every mental gymnastic possible to avoid the explicit truth. While the scripture teaches that it is the FALSE TEACHERS that will be PUNISHED FAR WORSE because of their deliberate corruption of the truth of the gospel.

Lord knows, how many persons were and are sent to hell because of the false teaching of annilhilationism. HOW MANY WOULD HAVE REPENTED HAD THEY NOT BEEN PROMISED THE PEACE OF SOUL SLEEP AND ANNILHILATION. BUT DID NOT REPENT BECAUSE THESE WICKED WERE PROMISED SLEEP AND ANNIHILATION ONLY TO RECEIVE EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT. What will God do those false teachers!

[John317]

2Peter 2: 9 Specifically says that the wicked are “RESERVED”. The translation of “reserved” is in the present, active, infinitive form, which means that he wicked are BEING HELD CAPTIVE CONTINUOUSLY” . The RSV correctly translates the verse to understand that the WICKED ARE “BEING KEPT UNDER PUNISHMENT” while they wait for the DAY OF JUDGMENT to be punished. Quoting “9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trial, and to KEEP THE UNRIGHTEOUS UNDER PUNISHMENT until the day of judgment ...

Mr. Humble, it seems to me you are positive that it ought to be translated to mean that the wicked dead are being tormented by God while they await the day of judgment.

But please see the following excellent translations which translate the verse differently than you believe it should be. Later we can parse and translate the verse.

Here are 17 translations:

2 Peter 1: 9 should be translated thus: "The Lord knows how to be delivering the godly out of testing and temptation but to be reserving the unrighteous for the day of judgment to be punished." (New Testament translated by Kenneth S. Wuest, Teacher Emeritus of New Testament Greek, The Moody Bible Institute)

Rotherham's translation (one of the most accurate and dependable ever published in the English language): "Then the Lord knoweth how to rescue the godly out of trial; but to keep the unrghteous unto a day of judgment to be punished."

Concordant Literal Translation-- ".... yet is keeping the unjust for chastening in the day of judging."

Today's New International Version reads-- " if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment."

Phillips Modern English-- ".... how to reserve his punishment for the wicked until their day comes."

The New Translation, The Letters of the New Testament, "... to reserve the wicked for punishment at the Day of Judgment."

John Darby's Translation-- [the] Lord knows [how] to deliver the godly out of trial, and to keep [the] unjust to [the] day of judgment [to be] punished.

Wycliffe New Testament: For the Lord knoweth how to deliver pious men from temptation, and keep wicked men into the day of doom to be tormented; [The Lord knew to deliver pious men of temptation, soothly to keep wicked men into the day of doom to be tormented;]

The KJV gives it correctly, "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptation, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished."

21st Century King James Version: "then the Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust unto the Day of Judgment to be punished."

The New Testament, Confraternity Version (Catholic): "The Lord knows how to deliver the God-fearing from temptation and to reserve the wicked for torment on the day of judgment."

Christian Community Bible-- "... and keep the wicked for punishment on the Day of Judgment."

The Holy Bible in Modern English-- "... and He keeps the wicked for a day of judicial punishment."

New Testament, A Translation In Everyday English-- ".. and how to keep the unjust for Judgment Day, when they will be punished."

The New Testament of Our Lord and Savior (Knox)-- "... while the wrong-doers must await the day of judgment, marked down for torment."

God's New Covenant-- Heinz W. Cassirer-- "... while keeping the wicked in readiness, that they might receive their punishment on the Day of Judgment."

God's Word-- ".... He also knows how to hold immoral people for punishment on the day of judgment."

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Taylor

I know many have posted a lot of evidence from the Bible, becuase the subject of death is very clear, but here are some texts for you to consider:

Psalm 146:4 says that the day a person dies his thoughts die too

Ps.115 is referring to the persons plans.. they die because he isn't alive in the flesh on earth to carry out his "thoughts".

Please show where Ps. 115 refers to a person's plans?

Are you talking about Ps. 146: 4 or Ps. 115: 17?

I think you are confused a bit, Mr. Humble. Ps. 115 does not mention anyone's plans.

You must mean Ps. 146: 4. See Strong# 6250. It refers to "thinking; thought." Rotherham's Emphasized Bible translates it, "In that very day his thoughts perish."

The truth is that the word may be translated either way or both ways. That being the case, Ps. 146: 4 signifies that when people die, all of their plans, purposes, and thoughts perish. (See Amplified Version which includes both "plans and thoughts.")

Here is the New American Standard Version:

His spirit departs, he returns to the earth;

In that very day his thoughts perish.

Strong's Number: 6250

Original Word Word Origin

from (06245)

Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling

`eshtonah esh-to-naw'

Parts of Speech

Noun Feminine

Definition

thought

Translated Words

KJV (1) - thoughts, 1;

NAS (1) - thoughts, 1;

[John317]

Sir, you are thoroughly confused person. Not only is it clear you don't know what death is,it's clear you don't know what sleep is. When a person is sleeping his BODY is at rest while his SPIRIT OR SOUL IS ALIVE AND WELL.

People find lots of false teachings they THINK they got from "the bible", it's because they lack understanding and knowledge. I've known a lot of people who WERE SDA but they LEFT THE SDA when they found out the bible didn't teach what the SDA said it taught. They found out they were only fooled for a time when they learned more about what the bible really teaches.

Mr. Humble, I must say that the last two posts I replied to from you do not make it appear that you have a whole lot of understanding. You actually come off as pretty confused yourself. And you're pretty arrogant as usual, I see. You haven't changed at all since the last time you were with us.

As the moderator, Mr. Humble, I'm going to ask that you keep on topic and not denigrate people and groups. Be polite as you possibly can be and show common courtesy. Try to say something positive once in a while if you can bear it.

I expect to see you keeping your comments on the topic and away from put-downs and comments about whole groups of people.

[Robert]

When a person is sleeping his BODY is at rest while his SPIRIT OR SOUL IS ALIVE AND WELL.

The Bible states that "the soul that sins it must die". Paul states "in Adam all die". There's no escaping the 1st death. Why? We are fallen...we are sinful and we are mortal. So mortality is to sin what immortality is to righteousness. Hence the teaching that man has an immortal soul denies that the whole person is fallen and that nothing good dwells in him, outside the Holy Spirit. In other words the immortality of the soul says that there's something good in man and therefore salvation is partially by Christ and partially because mankind has something good in him.

As to this "sleep death". What does it mean?

John 11:11 Then he [Jesus] said, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but now I will go and wake him up." 12 The disciples said, "Lord, if he is sleeping, that means he is getting better!" 13 They thought Jesus meant Lazarus was having a good night's rest, but Jesus meant Lazarus had died. 14 Then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead."

The Bible teaches two deaths: The first death is called a sleep death because at the 1st resurrection "the dead in Christ will be raised". In other words it's only momentary. It's like when you fall asleep and then the alarm clock goes off.

The 2nd death isn't hell, it's "the curse of the law". Unbelievers will have to take this "curse" because they have refused Christ as their righteousness. Hence they will experience the 2nd death, which is not referred to as a sleep, but is rather goodbye to life forever. No resurrection and hence it is final. Remember the Bible doesn't teach eternal torment. It clearly states that "the wages of sin is death"

Anyway, there's a very interesting verse that sums this:

John 11:17 On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. 18 Bethany was less than two miles from Jerusalem, 19 and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. 20 When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home. 21 "Lord," Martha said to Jesus, "if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask." 23 Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again." 24 Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live [future tense], even though he dies [the 1st death]; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die [the 2nd death - the curse of the law]. Do you believe this?

Adventists are right here and this doctrine is most important because the immortality of the soul attacks the gospel. It denies man's depravity - it states something is good in him. Hence it is a legalistic teaching and must be opposed.

[John317]

When the day of judgment comes the wicked are not annihilated. They are “tormented day and night forever and ever” . Rev.14:11 and Rev.20:10. Rev.4:8 uses the term “day and night for ever and ever” to clearly mean the UNENDING praising of God by the Angels in heaven. And so it is correct to understand the same “day and night for ever and ever” as the unending torment of the wicked in Rev.14:11 and Rev.20:10 As Christ clearly says in Matt.25:46 “These (the wicked) shall go into unending punishment but the righteous into life unending” . Both words are “aion” which clearly means UNENDING in both places.

It could only be "unending punishment" if the wicked have immortal souls or spirits, but the Bible nowhere says that the wicked have immortal souls or spirits.

I am sure you realize that "aion" is an indeterminate length of time-- how long it is is determined by the subject. When it is someone that is immortal, it means endlessly; but when it has reference to mortals, it means "a long time" or "as long as the person lives." Are you familiar with this concept?

So at this point, you would need to show that the Bible teaches humans now have immortal souls or spirits.

Are you ready to do that? Give all the verses that say "immortal soul,"?

Or give all the verses that show that humans survive the death of the body and go on living after the body is dead and buried.

You might begin with the way God made man. Surely the Bible mentions that man has an immortal spirit or soul living inside him, doesn't it? Lay out all the evidence here, please.

[Robert]

2 Thess 2:9 The coming of the lawless one [the anti-Christ] is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth [the gospel - and it states that we can bring nothing to the table; that salvation is only in Christ and not because something is good in us], that they might be saved.

I believe that a large part of Satan's deception will be on this issue of the state of men after death.

[Robert]

When the day of judgment comes the wicked are not annihilated. They are “tormented day and night forever and ever” . Rev.14:11 and Rev.20:10.

Revelation is full of symbols. We must first go to those clear verses. Those who first go to these very symbolic books can make the Bible say anything!

This issue is really simple.

Did Jesus, as the Son of Man, die? Clearly "yes" for if He didn't then Romans 5:10 is untrue:

"We were reconciled to God through the death of His Son"

So we are justified, reconciled to God, because of Christ's death (which is our death - see Romans 6:6; 7:4). If Christ didn't die then we are lost.

We are told, by the Bible, that Christ took the sins of the whole world (the sins of everyone, past, present and future) upon Himself. How long did it take Christ to die the 2nd death? About 6 hours.

So in 6 hours He took the curse and died. He had the whole world's sin on Him.

Now, let's say a 10 year old girl dies. She has passed the age of accountability and she never accepted Christ. She wasn't a bad kid, she just didn't need Christ. By that I mean she stayed out of trouble. According to your theology she will be tormented forever and ever.

Now Christ paid the sins of the whole world in 6 hours and yet this girl, who is just one sinner, must be tormented not for just 6 hours, but for eternity? How is that fair? This is injustice and it attacks God's goodness.

Rob