Moderators John317 Posted March 19, 2009 Moderators Share Posted March 19, 2009 Most Christians, including those who oppose the Trinity, are in total agreement that God the Father is eternal; that is, He has always existed and therefore is without beginning. At the same time, the Bible is clear that absolutely nothing exists that Christ did not make. Question: If God the Father has existed from eternity, but Christ has a beginning, how long did the Father exist completely in solitude? How long did God the Father exist before Christ existed? No matter when Christ came into existence, the belief that God has no beginning means that God existed totally alone for endless ages before anything else existed or was made. Does this make sense to anyone-- that God would exist completely in solitude for endless ages before the first thing was made? It doesn't make sense to me, yet it must be true if Arians are right, that God the Father alone is eternal. My next point is that if Arians are right, this means of necessity that God the Father existed completely alone for endless ages without having anyone to love or communicate with-- if indeed there is no Trinity and if indeed Christ has a beginning and the Father does not. For the Bible is very clear that nothing has ever existed apart from Jesus Christ. Since God IS love, is it consistent and reasonable (to say nothing of being in agreement with Scripture) to believe that a God who IS LOVE would exist in total solitude for endless ages without anyone or anything to love except Himself? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 I'm inclined to believe that God transcends time and space, so He has never really been alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
True-believer Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 This is just plain stupid!!! We all believe and know from the Bible that God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Ghost are in FACT the three in one. Why are there still people who don't get it!!! Trinity and Godhead both mean the same thing... Trinity means the three in one... Godhead means also the three in one... Please read your Bible!!! Quote Luke 4:19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 So....tell us what you really think. LOL I'm assuming you were not intending to respond to me, since I didn't say anything about the Trinity. At any rate, your post is probably not the best way to win friends and influence people on the forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Quote: Why are there still people who don't get it!!! Well ... let me see. How long did it take Ellen White to 'get it' ? Honestly ... I think we need to show more tolerance for those of different faiths and beliefs. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted March 21, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted March 21, 2009 This is just plain stupid!!! We all believe and know from the Bible that God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Ghost are in FACT the three in one. Why are there still people who don't get it!!! I certainly believe in the Trinity, but there are millions of believers in Christ who don't believe in it, including some SDAs. They believe that Christ had a beginning. They also believe the Holy Spirit is the power or influence of the Father rather than a distinct Person. There is a relatively minor movement in the SDA church to return to the way the church believed on this doctrine during the the first 40 years of our history. This is one reason I am posing the questions. I believe that we as a church need to know what we believe and why we believe it. Many don't. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted March 21, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted March 21, 2009 I completely agree with you, dgrimm60. Good response. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted March 21, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted March 21, 2009 Trinity and Godhead both mean the same thing... Trinity means the three in one... Godhead means also the three in one... Please read your Bible!!! I like your last line and believe it is great advice for anyone wanting to know the Bible teaching on the Trinity because it is actually very clear. For instance, John 1: 1 says straightforwardly that "in the beginning the word [Christ] was God." Also, the only correct way to translate Titus 2: 13 and 2 Peter 1: 1 is that Jesus is God. I agree with you about the Trinity, but it is not true that Godhead means three in one. "Godhead" is a translation of the Greek word, theiotes or theotetos, and only occurs in Col. 2: 9. It may also be translated as "Deity." theiotes is a feminine singular noun. It simply means "the state of being God," but it has no reference to the number 3. Of course the word Trinity does refer to 3, but it does not occur in the Bible. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted March 21, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted March 21, 2009 This is just plain stupid!!! We all believe and know from the Bible that God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Ghost are in FACT the three in one. Please give the best 4 or 5 Bible verses which teach that Jesus is without beginning and that He is God, also that the Holy Spirit is a distinct Person in the Godhead. Ok, maybe not 4 or 5 verses-- just give as many as you can. I don't know if you are like a lot of people who believe these things but can't give the Bible evidence for it. It's good to review and refresh our memories. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 John 1:1-3 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Amnsn Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Trinity means the three in one...Godhead means also the three in one... Please read your Bible!!! I have read the Bible. The word "trinity" is not found in the Bible. I have never heard a person explain or defend the trinity without going well beyond what the Scriptures actually say -- essentially adding to Scripture the teachings and philosophy of men. It is possible that the word "trinity" describes the nature of God, but it is possible that "unity" is a better description of the nature of a God with multiple manifestations. The Christian concept of three Gods is a major hurdle that keeps Jews from accepting Jesus as the Messiah. We should be willing to give up the non-scriptural terms in order to win the Jews. In the Old Testament the Messiah is often depicted as God's right arm or right hand. That depiction is completely compatible with what the New Testament teaches. Whatever words we choose to describe the nature of God, we should be able to explain our beliefs without going beyond what Scripture actually says. And we certainly shouldn't break fellowship with others who believe differently about an area where Scripture is silent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 The Trinity is a major hurdle for Muslims, as well. It's unacceptable paganism to believe in more than one god. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted March 22, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted March 22, 2009 Originally Posted By: True-believer Trinity means the three in one...Godhead means also the three in one... Please read your Bible!!! I have read the Bible. The word "trinity" is not found in the Bible... Neither is the word "incarnation" in Scripture, but the Bible teaches both the Trinity and the Incarnation. These are words that express what the Bible teaches. But it isn't necessary to use those terms to teach or defend either of those beliefs. John 1: 1 says clearly that "in the beginning the Word was God." The Revised English Bible reads, "what God was, the Word was," which is what the original is saying. It's saying the same thing that is found in Hebrews 1: 3, which describes Jesus Christ as "the exact reproduction of His [the Father's] nature." These both agree with Phil. 2: 6, which says that Jesus Christ "existed in the form, or nature, of God" before the Incarnation. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted March 22, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted March 22, 2009 The Trinity is a major hurdle for Muslims, as well. It's unacceptable paganism to believe in more than one god. I know what you are saying, but of course the Trinity does not teach the worship of more than one God. We believe in 1 God in 3 Persons. It does NOT mean 1 God in 3 Gods, or 3 Persons in 1 Person, or 3 Persons in 3 Gods, or 1 Person in 3 Gods Rather The Father is God-- 1 Cor. 1: 3; 8: 6; Eph. 4: 4-6 The Son is God-- John 1: 1-5, 14; 20: 28; Hebrews 1: 6, 10; 2 Peter 1: 1. The Holy Spirit is God-- Acts 5: 3-4; 2 Cor. 3: 17 (cf. v. 6 and Ex. 34: 34) When we say we believe in "one" God, we are using "one" in the same sense that Jesus used it in John 10: 30-33 when He said, "The Father and I are one." It's the same use of "one" as occurs in Gen. 2: 24, where Scripture says that two people who marry "shall become one flesh." Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
True-believer Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Originally Posted By: Ron Amnsn I have read the Bible. The word "trinity" is not found in the Bible... Neither is the word "incarnation" in Scripture' date=' but the Bible teaches both the Trinity and the Incarnation. These are words that express what the Bible teaches. But it isn't necessary to use those terms to teach or defend either of those beliefs. John 1: 1 says clearly that "in the beginning the Word was God." The Revised English Bible reads, "what God was, the Word was," which is what the original is saying. It's saying the same thing that is found in Hebrews 1: 3, which describes Jesus Christ as "the exact reproduction of His [the Father's'] nature." These both agree with Phil. 2: 6, which says that Jesus Christ "existed in the form, or nature, of God" before the Incarnation. Thankyou for your feedback... But John317 says that the bible teaches reincarnation???????? I thought Christians didn't believe in reincarnations????? Please explain?? Quote Luke 4:19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted March 22, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted March 22, 2009 But John317 says that the bible teaches reincarnation???????? I thought Christians didn't believe in reincarnations????? Please explain?? There's a very big difference between "incarnation" and "reincarnation." The incarnation is mentioned in John 1: 14. It refers to the Word (who existed alongside God the Father from the beginning) becoming a man, or taking on flesh. "Reincarnation," on the other hand, is the rebirth of a soul in a new body. So it is the belief that when people die their soul or spirit is reborn in a different body. This belief is not taught in the Bible but occurs in many heathen religions. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Originally Posted By: carolaa The Trinity is a major hurdle for Muslims, as well. It's unacceptable paganism to believe in more than one god. I know what you are saying, but of course the Trinity does not teach the worship of more than one God. We believe in 1 God in 3 Persons. It does NOT mean 1 God in 3 Gods, or 3 Persons in 1 Person, or 3 Persons in 3 Gods, or 1 Person in 3 Gods Rather The Father is God-- 1 Cor. 1: 3; 8: 6; Eph. 4: 4-6 The Son is God-- John 1: 1-5, 14; 20: 28; Hebrews 1: 6, 10; 2 Peter 1: 1. The Holy Spirit is God-- Acts 5: 3-4; 2 Cor. 3: 17 (cf. v. 6 and Ex. 34: 34) When we say we believe in "one" God, we are using "one" in the same sense that Jesus used it in John 10: 30-33 when He said, "The Father and I are one." It's the same use of "one" as occurs in Gen. 2: 24, where Scripture says that two people who marry "shall become one flesh." You have to admit that the concept is a difficult one to wrap our human heads around. So we tend to put God in a box that we can understand, and it can't be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted March 22, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted March 22, 2009 You have to admit that the concept is a difficult one to wrap our human heads around. So we tend to put God in a box that we can understand, and it can't be done. Yes, I do agree completely. There's a lot there that we simply don't and can't understand. We can't really even grasp what not having a beginning means. We know the definition but our minds aren't capable of truly understanding it. I can't even understand what it will actually be like to live a trillions years on the new earth, let alone have a trillion trillion years left to live after that. And more trillions after that and no end to that. But when we put that in the past, that is really mind boggling. So if we can't understand time, how are we going to really understand what God is like in Himself as He is in His being? To me it is like asking an ant to understand human life. I'm sure there's going to be many surprises in heaven. Ellen White says we won't ever stop learning about God and about the sacrifice Christ made to save us. I can believe it. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Cloned Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 This is my first post. Thank you for your patience. I agree that trying to understand the fullness of God is... Well... the work of our eternity. But there are things about Himself that I believe He has revealed but not always in plain sight. I believe that the things that are most important God makes most clear. The Trinity concept that has developed in SDA thinking I believe is a unique contribution to the world that is supported by scripture and the SOP. The fact that every other major Christian denomination has in its beliefs that Jesus was born from the bosom of the Father in eternity past is interesting because that terminology comes right out of the councils that formed the Catholic church. Some say that the concept of the Trinity was a Catholic creation. The word Trinity may have originated with the students of the first few centuries but the concept of the 3 in 1 Divine being is not a creation of man. And the way I have come to appreciate this beautiful belief as E.G. White presented after her husband died is exciting. Maybe we can talk more about that. Quote Put the horse before the cart! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Our God is ONE God Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 When we are fully able to comprehend having always been, and omnipresence we can understand the trouble of packaging terms and other matters such as the Son of God, in our heads... Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Welcome to Club Adventist NotCloned. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Perhaps we should explain to Notcloned .... the rules of Club Adventist. Rule #1 is that when you post something exciting ... you must always end with: ha ha ha he he he ho ho ho. ha ha ha he he he ho ho ho Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted March 28, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted March 28, 2009 HEY NOTCLONED Some christian denominations other than S.D.A. do believe in the Trinity... but other chrisitans don't dgrimm60 Yes, most Christians believe in some form of the Trinity doctrine. 1 God in 3 Persons. I don't believe in 3 Gods or gods. I think what NotCloned is referring to is the fact that some of the Christian churches have concepts of the Trinity that are not the same as others have. And some of these concepts are not fully supported by the Bible. For instance, the Roman Catholic Church believes that God the Father "produced" the pre-incarnate Christ. And they also believe that the Holy Spirit is "produced" by the love of the Father and the Son. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Okay. I will show him a little mercy but not for long ... HA HA HA HE HE HE HO HO HO Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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