Neil D Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Not directed to anyone in perticular... How does that document start out.....- The United States Declaration of Independence, which was primarily written by Thomas Jefferson, was adopted by the Second Continental Congress on July 4, 1776. The text of the second section of the Declaration of Independence reads: We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. So, how can one have the inalienable right of "life" if you don't have healthcare? Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 I was just thinking we needed to start another thread. I'm probably the worst threadjacker on the board. Maybe I have ADD. Can't seem to be happy to stick with one train of thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 I believe healthcare should be a right, not a privilege. All basic human needs should be rights, not privileges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Who denies those who work the right to eat? Who has said those that cannot work because of disabilities should not be cared for. You have a right to what you have worked for,you have a right to work as hard as you choose to pay for those rights. You have a right to own your own home as long as you work and pay the mortgage. Simply because you are breathing does not give you rights and the rewards others work for. Maybe a new trend could be started. Obama could up his rather pathetic charitable donation on his million + income. He could certainly get by with an average salary and give the rest to others needing health care and shelter. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Not directed to anyone in perticular... How does that document start out.....- The United States Declaration of Independence, which was primarily written by Thomas Jefferson, was adopted by the Second Continental Congress on July 4, 1776. The text of the second section of the Declaration of Independence reads: We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. So, how can one have the inalienable right of "life" if you don't have healthcare? Millions have enjoyed the inalienable right to life. They will continue to do so for a time yet. Quite a stretch to imply that Jefferson was referring to universal health care. It is also a bit of a stretch to imply that unless their is universal health care citizens are left without recourse if they become sick. But on the other hand maybe those that want it as their right should work a little harder and exercise their right to insurance if they pay. Nothing whatsoever in the constitution granting the right to health care Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Key Guy Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Gov't-provided health care does nothing to encourage personal responsibility in us to care for ourselves any better. The whole purpose of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as to instill in us greater responsibility for our actions and have that ripple effect extend to our families and neighbors. Just like the military, the welfare system, the infrastructure, our law makers, the judicial system, the IRS, the Postal Service, the Social Security system, the Medicare system (did I miss anything?), any attempt by the gov't to control the health care system of this country will end up with corruption, graft, and even higher taxes. Nothing EVER gets cheaper or more efficient when the gov't touches it. I do not want to pay for the health care of a smoking, drinking, drug-infested, abortion-loving, obese diabetic with high blood pressure and one foot in the grave. Why should I be responsible for the wrong decisions made by idiots? Why should they be responsible for my lifestyle and the costs involved (or not). Once again, the gov't and those that support this move, think that I don't have the right to spend my hard-earned money the way that I want to, that I can't manage my money better than they can. That's anti-freedom, folks.... also called socialism and/or communism. All of you that support gov't provided health care keep your blankety fingers out of my pockets, your abortion on-demand medical bills to yourselves and your thermometers out of my behind! I, for one, hope health care stays in private enterprise and that I stay healthy for a long, long time. Anybody that supports gov't health care deserves the medical disaster that's sure to come. Whew! That was a spout-off, for sure. Now, where's the nearest tea party? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted March 28, 2009 Author Share Posted March 28, 2009 ..um...how can one have life, if one is sick and unable to work? By your logic, a person who gets into a car accident, who is not able to work, is not entitled to any health care... Current distribution of healthcare is such that only those who have health insurance are able to have access to health care. But the healthcare industry, specifically hospitals, health clinics, doctors, ERs are not allowed to deny any health care to anyone. As such, premiums go up such that only those who have health insurance due to hospital costs. The burden of care is shifted to those who can pay for it. Problem: those businesses find the health care insurance going up and are unable to pay for it. The results are more and more businesses are forgoing health care. And the costs shift more to those who are able to bear the cost. The middle class is getting squeezed by copayments and deductables. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Key Guy Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Remember when families and neighborhoods took care of each other? Remember when we had schools that were close enough to people's homes that the kids walked there and the parents knew the teachers very well? Remember when we bartered for things with our neighbors... traded goods for services or vice versa? Remember when fire companies were all-volunteer because neighbors were looking out for each other? Remember when police officers were hired from their own communities and walked the beats... when they knew every family? Remember when you would risk getting spanked by your neighbor or teacher for misbehaving, then be reported to your parents so they could punish you, too? Remember when hangings happened within the communities, when the criminal was not shipped across the state to be cared for for the rest of his/her life? Remember when crime was virtually non-existent, when divorce was not acceptable, when taxes were low, when politicians were afraid of their voters, when women were happy to be wives and mothers, when men worked to support their families, when we had local doctors make house calls, charged a reasonable rate, did not have malpractice insurance and families cared for the medical needs of each other? Do you see how society has broken down? Does anyone not realize that we are traveling down a non-reversible path? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Gov't-provided health care does nothing to encourage personal responsibility in us to care for ourselves any better. The whole purpose of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as to instill in us greater responsibility for our actions and have that ripple effect extend to our families and neighbors. Just like the military, the welfare system, the infrastructure, our law makers, the judicial system, the IRS, the Postal Service, the Social Security system, the Medicare system (did I miss anything?), any attempt by the gov't to control the health care system of this country will end up with corruption, graft, and even higher taxes. Nothing EVER gets cheaper or more efficient when the gov't touches it. I do not want to pay for the health care of a smoking, drinking, drug-infested, abortion-loving, obese diabetic with high blood pressure and one foot in the grave. Why should I be responsible for the wrong decisions made by idiots? Why should they be responsible for my lifestyle and the costs involved (or not). Once again, the gov't and those that support this move, think that I don't have the right to spend my hard-earned money the way that I want to, that I can't manage my money better than they can. That's anti-freedom, folks.... also called socialism and/or communism. All of you that support gov't provided health care keep your blankety fingers out of my pockets, your abortion on-demand medical bills to yourselves and your thermometers out of my behind! I, for one, hope health care stays in private enterprise and that I stay healthy for a long, long time. Anybody that supports gov't health care deserves the medical disaster that's sure to come. Whew! That was a spout-off, for sure. Now, where's the nearest tea party? I really can't afford for them to save me much more money and provide for my medical care. Prior to my husband's 65th birthday he was notified it was now time to review his policy and provide one for medical supplemental insurance. Medicare sent us this liitle invitation as well. It was phrased nicely but the bottom line was if he refused medicare at this time when he did decide to "take advantage" of medicare he would from there on pay a higher premium. His medical coverage had been 140.00 per month. 500.00 deductible,prescriptions,hospital,Dr visits etc. Only a government body could save me money as this did. Instead of the 140.00 per month for 100% coverage,Medicare would now give us 80% coverage at roughly 100.00 per month. Supplemental insurance now is 155.00 per month for 20% coverage.Let us not forget the presription drug plan which I believe is around 40.00 per month. I start every month 155.00 in the hole with a government run medical coverage. Can hardly wait to see what they can do with universal health care Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 ..um...how can one have life, if one is sick and unable to work? By your logic, a person who gets into a car accident, who is not able to work, is not entitled to any health care... Current distribution of healthcare is such that only those who have health insurance are able to have access to health care. But the healthcare industry, specifically hospitals, health clinics, doctors, ERs are not allowed to deny any health care to anyone. As such, premiums go up such that only those who have health insurance due to hospital costs. The burden of care is shifted to those who can pay for it. Problem: those businesses find the health care insurance going up and are unable to pay for it. The results are more and more businesses are forgoing health care. And the costs shift more to those who are able to bear the cost. The middle class is getting squeezed by copayments and deductables. You really take a great deal of liberty with what someone else has said....... By your logic, a person who gets into a car accident, who is not able to work, is not entitled to any health care... The person that gets in an car accident is not denied health care nor did I imply such. The person should not be driving a car if they cannot insure it. If insured his health care needs are taken care of by insurance,if not the state takes care of it By the time we are done with cap and trade,higher taxes for the vulgar rich,squeezing the small business man,higher taxes to provide for more and more welfare recipients,etc there will be little tax left to take. Don't let us forget Obama wants smart meters in your home now and then the tracking device in cars to hit you again if you drive more than they allow. We were doing reasonably well in MN with welfare. Recipients had a lifetime of five years and then off to work you go. They carried the child care costs and medical till training or the job was stable and they were on their own. That is off the table now as we can no longer require them to work. They cannot run what they have so somehow the wisdom is if they get their hooks into you for more they will do better. I have no idea what the break down is now but when we were foster parents in the 70's only 28 cents out of every dollar actually went to actual welfare. The rest was state employees ,implementing,pensions,and wages. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Key Guy Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Bonnie, where do you think the gov't gets the money to cover the elderly? You are saving money, but SOMEBODY is paying more than their fair share to provide this coverage for your husband. And they are doing it against their will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Bonnie, where do you think the gov't gets the money to cover the elderly? You are saving money, but SOMEBODY is paying more than their fair share to provide this coverage for your husband. And they are doing it against their will. I think you misread. I do believe however in their convoluted way they have managed to make it the cost higher and are those that are getting bilked for each on medicare. I am actually paying 155.00 more per month under their system than I was when my husband was on my policy. But they make sure you take medicare the minute you turn 65. If you don't ,when you do sign up you are punished by always paying a higher medicare premium than you would have Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Bonnie, where do you think the gov't gets the money to cover the elderly? You are saving money, but SOMEBODY is paying more than their fair share to provide this coverage for your husband. And they are doing it against their will. These are cost now compared to our own private insurance. Doesn't anyone think maybe that medicare is being run by the inmates.Besides what we pay I do believe others have to pay more than they should to my husband's health care. Isn't there something wrong with this picture How can they charge us 155.00 more per month and still be running out of money when insurance companies charged us 140.00 and they seem to be doing just fine. Are current cost now........ Only a government body could save me money as this did. Instead of the 140.00 per month for 100% coverage,Medicare would now give us 80% coverage at roughly 100.00 per month. Supplemental insurance now is 155.00 per month for 20% coverage.Let us not forget the presription drug plan which I believe is around 40.00 per month. I start every month 155.00 in the hole with a government run medical coverage. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Key Guy Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Good example of gov't over-control. "Do it our way or else" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Remember when crime was virtually non-existent And what part of world history would this have been? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted March 28, 2009 Author Share Posted March 28, 2009 Gov't-provided health care does nothing to encourage personal responsibility in us to care for ourselves any better. The whole purpose of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as to instill in us greater responsibility for our actions and have that ripple effect extend to our families and neighbors. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Key Guy Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Originally Posted By: KeyGuy Remember when crime was virtually non-existent And what part of world history would this have been? Even in my lifetime.... we never locked doors when I was a kid. Can't say that now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 We always locked our doors at home when I was a kid, and we lived in the Midwest. I think my parents and grandparents did the same. Anyway, I'm threadjacking again..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted March 28, 2009 Author Share Posted March 28, 2009 Quote: Remember when families and neighborhoods took care of each other? Remember when we had schools that were close enough to people's homes that the kids walked there and the parents knew the teachers very well? Um, hmmmmm....never knew this experience....and my friends never knew this experience either.... ...just out of curiousity, what planet did you say you're from???? [jk] Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Key Guy Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Um, hmmmmm....never knew this experience....and my friends never knew this experience either.... ...just out of curiousity, what planet did you say you're from???? Good ol' central PA I went to church school, did not receive the heavily-shoveled manure that one gets in public school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Key Guy Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Quote: I got a hunch that the above statement just ain't true...The premise is that if one gets health care for free, everyone will be wanting it .....The idea of getting poked with needles, have tubes shoved up our noses, and unmentionables in other places and, irradiated, and cut our abdomens open, is such a strange myth....the concept that WE LIKE THAT STUFF!is ludicrious. So, in reality, there will be no sacrificing of personal responsiblity any more than currently enjoyed under a private payer system.. It stands to reason that, if you don't want to be poked, prodded, etc, you'll do things to prevent that from happening, or at least reduce the risk. The lifestyle of the average American does not demonstrate any motivation to avoid a doctor's care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Quote: I got a hunch that the above statement just ain't true...The premise is that if one gets health care for free, everyone will be wanting it .....The idea of getting poked with needles, have tubes shoved up our noses, and unmentionables in other places and, irradiated, and cut our abdomens open, is such a strange myth....the concept that WE LIKE THAT STUFF!is ludicrious. So, in reality, there will be no sacrificing of personal responsiblity any more than currently enjoyed under a private payer system.. Personal responsibility comes in the form of taking care of yourself so far as possible. Sacrificing personal responsibility is when I can take care of my own and don't. Maybe a second job if necessary. Quote: Second point, you think the private sector will let you do anything you want in regards to the health industry? You think that insurances, run by the private secctor, have the most efficient, lowest cost system?...boy, have I got news for you! If they don't it is not to be had. The government surely does not have it. For the most part the insurance covers your Dr's care. They have restrictions and at times you have to wade thru them but nothing like government run. Prior to medicare we never had to wait and fight for prescriptions. I have had to on medicare several times. Quote: I have seen, people who have what is called 'donut' insurances. What is 'donut' insurances? Well, for the first $25k, they pick up the tab for 80% and you are on the hook for 20% and your deductable. After you cross that $25k gross amount, you are then required to pick up 35-50% of your bill. I have even seen where you are required to pick up 80% and the insurance picks up the rest, minus your deductable. And then when the bill get to $100,000 , they will revert to paying the usual 80%-20% plan, where they will pick up 80% and you pick up 20%....Ever think how much 20% of $100k is??? A couple of years of that, and my retirement is gone... It would be tough to believe that people that take out insurance are not aware of that. If someones retirement pays for their medical cost so be it. A comfortable retirement isn't part of the constitution either. Quote: Some insurances top out at a certain amount. For example, you get CANCER and you prolong your life with lots of drugs and chemotherapy and radiation and your bill comes back at you for $1.5 million and your insurance tops out at $500K. Guess who is stuck with the bill? Are you actually saying medicare doesn't cap out. I think if you came back at the average person demanding 1.5 million they will be stuck. Most would simply file bankruptcy Quote: If you think that this is rare, I got news for you...I was seeing this on average 1 every two months...it happens alot...to senior citizens who can not figure out which medicare to go under...of which there are 4 [?] plans...each plan is for a specific problem...and each plan will change amounts of reimbursments and change deductables and change coverage in the middle of the 2 years you are required to be on...Yeah, you got it right... Senior citizens are pretty savvy, they are not the helpless sheep to be led around that so many try to paint. Any good insurance agent will help guide you to the best overall coverage for your specific needs. Unless there is mental impairment they need to do their homework. As this process begins at age 65 many are still working so I suspect they are a lot more on top than given credit for Quote: If you think this is confusing, a healthy middle of life individual, think what the senior citizen has to figure out...And if things continue the way they are, it will be even more confusing for YOU. I hate to say this, but you really want a simplified payer plan....One payer pays it all...and insurance companys loose the business... Nothing complicated about our policy or that anyone I know. The parts that may not be easily understood a qualified insurance agent will get you to the right plan Quote: Hmmmmm.....the mental health department needs a visit from you...You can tell all those bipolar vetrans who got agent orange that thier mental conditions are all in thier head. In fact, you can tell the single mother,working at the Pennys womens department store [with no health insurance], whose alcoholic hubby that ran out on them, and left 2 young teens that she has inoperable cancer [or worse, operable cancer that will place her in debt for the rest of her life]. ....you think that your smoking drinking drug-ingested abortion loving obese diabetic with high blood pressure is common? The scenerios that I posted are a lot more common than yours..... Last person that I knew that worked for Penny's had health insurance. Many families have and do go without insurance. So what? Many qualify and do receive full coverage compliments of the taxpayer. Those that don't still have options available to them. Takes a little self interest doing some research but tough cookies. Quote: You think that is 'socialism"? Well, buddy, you are paying for socialism now...Your check has money coming out of it for health insurance....and buddy, you ain't got no say in it, 'cept if you want it or not...That's part of your "life and liberty while your are persuin' your happiness" part of the paycheck. That is why many of us would like to see the headlong rush to socialism stopped Quote: I dont think there will be the "desaster" that you claim it will be...Certainly, health care will be triaged out a bit different, various hospitals will be ran differently, a sort of managed health care thru out the country. that's the reality of health care. You bet they will be run differently. That is why many think it will be a disaster. A sort of managed care by the government is like saying I am partially pregnant Quote: So, the premise of people LOVING THE BENIFITS of health care so much that once they get them, they will jump right out and get thier IVs, and rectal exams, and floroscopys, is a big bunch of hogwash.... Nothing was said about loving the procedures. The love is of that magic word "free" Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Key Guy Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Quote: But on the whole, but for lately, the school system was taught pretty well. Sure, there were some who didn't get taught to read, but they were in problem areas that need to be adddressed. Lately? How 'lately'? And how can you say I need a civics lesson? I can nearly quote the constitution and happily accept it at face value (sort of like the Bible should be taken). When schools are skipping over the important documents of our country and would rather focus on the kids passing the SAT's (to the detriment of everything else), not to mention our drop out rates and crappy grades in all subjects compared to other developed nations, we are in deep trouble. Mom and Dad aren't teaching morality or helping with homework. Teachers are getting paid more but the kids are getting less educated. Look at the quality of intelligence coming from universities and colleges these days. We have adults who can't solve everyday problems that only require imagination or ingenuity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Key Guy Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 I know that a significant part of my taxes are being used for health care (not mine, of course... I'm too healthy for my own money). I also pay for gov't-funded abortions. I pay for the steaks and ice cream of deadbeat freeloaders. I pay for the 'war on drugs' (what a joke THAT is!). I pay the higher than necessary wages for the lazy unionized highway maintenance worker. I pay to feed and care for the criminal that should have been terminated a long time ago (not to mention the legal fees to screw the system). I pay the teachers in my state to fill the kids' minds with everything but the 3 R's. I pay the wages of crooked judges, law makers and presidents that are out to ruin me, my church, my family and my country. Do I have a choice in these things? Yes... I can move to another country or I can try to educate people regarding true freedom and how to obtain that. I have chosen the latter. Very few people want to listen, 'cause the ears close tighter the further the hand stretches to grasp a gov't dollar. I am self-insured... translation: no insurance. Every time an agent tries to sell me insurance, the pitch is always the same, 'we can save you money on your premium!' I always respond that what really counts is what the insurance co. pays on a claim and that changes every day plus you really never know what coverage you have until you make a claim. Then you know what you really DON'T have. Our last 2 ER visits were paid by cash. We negotiated the bills down as far as 60% below the original invoice. Trusting in God's care, preventative holistic care, creative negotiation of bills if you have to get outside care and living a clean life all contribute to surviving the mess. I don't mind paying my own way and helping the folks that 'I' feel need it. I do resent paying for others against my will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Key Guy Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 No... I am one of the most upbeat people you'd ever want to meet. But, to make a point, I needed to focus on the negative. I spent some time in Central America over the years and those visits drive home the fact that we in the USA have so many blessings. Yet, our freedoms allow us to rail against the inequities that exist here. Other countries do not permit that (openly). I love this nation and it simply hurts to see the direction we're headed. That may be a good thing in the perspective of eternity, 'cause if we continue to have it too good here on earth, Heaven may not be all that attractive. Frankly, I've had it pretty good. I don't want to lose the eternal goal over a short-term life of relative ease. Bad trade, bad trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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