Key Guy Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Laz, your original story did not mention the 11 year thing. I'd like to know how long things went on from the time she was actually diagnosed, your story infers that you didn't know of her condition as she didn't share it with you for awhile. Your story infers that she herself maybe didn't know of her condition for years. If true, I can't blame anyone else for her delay in diagnostics. Diagnostics may cost some money but they are quite a bit cheaper than surgery. I have more questions about this case, but it's neither here nor there. Look, we can all find anecdotal stories to back up our claims in any side of an issue. I'm still hoping someone will help me understand how gov't is the ultimate answer to private enterprise's problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted March 31, 2009 Moderators Share Posted March 31, 2009 Laz, your original story did not mention the 11 year thing. I'd like to know how long things went on from the time she was actually diagnosed, your story infers that you didn't know of her condition as she didn't share it with you for awhile. Your story infers that she herself maybe didn't know of her condition for years. If true, I can't blame anyone else for her delay in diagnostics. Diagnostics may cost some money but they are quite a bit cheaper than surgery. I have more questions about this case, but it's neither here nor there. Look, we can all find anecdotal stories to back up our claims in any side of an issue. I'm still hoping someone will help me understand how gov't is the ultimate answer to private enterprise's problems. From what I know she knew she had the condition for 11 years. It may have gotten worse over time but the fact remains that she was unable to get treatment due to financial issues and the fact that the condition was not life threatening. I have never said that the government is the ultimate answer to private enterprise problems. I'm not sure which posters have made that assertion. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Quote: I have never said that the government is the ultimate answer to private enterprise problems. I'm not sure which posters have made that assertion. Government is the problem, not the solution. Gov't controls the licensing of Doctors, Hospitals, and Insurance companies. Gov't controls the Court system, which makes outrageous awards, costing everyone. Gov't won't allow competition between Insurance companies in different states. Gov't controls and delays the approval of drugs. Gov't cannot provide universal health care. That's obvious in every place it's been implemented. Gov't only limits and rations health care. Gov't health care: from the same people who brought you the public schools, and the post office. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Quote: From what I know she knew she had the condition for 11 years. It may have gotten worse over time but the fact remains that she was unable to get treatment due to financial issues and the fact that the condition was not life threatening. I have never said that the government is the ultimate answer to private enterprise problems. I'm not sure which posters have made that assertion. If we go to socialized medicine who will pay the bills,where will life saving technology come from. Who will give us cheap prescriptions as the US gives everyone else. Check into who sells drugs to third world countries and those that have socialized medicine. Now if we demand and get who will give us the cheap drugs. Don't know how many are on the prescription D plan but check out how much you pay for your co-pay and how much the the government pays. One drug my husband requires is 160.00. My co-pay is 27.00. Prior to medicare the insurance paid the difference. After medicare when I checked the receipt it showed the government paying less than I did. I started checking as something just didn't connect. Third world countries,any country with socialized medicine,our welfare recipients,medicare cannot be charged the full price. The able bodied middle class and the wealthy of the US underwrite 75% of the world drug cost. Wonder how it will work when so many that take their medical care for granted face the nasty little truth. What country would you suggest when my husband was a candidate for a new,high tech procedure? Should we have taken him to Canada where everything is free? Funny how there were canadians there for the same thing? Why not stay where it is free? Give you a little guess. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted April 1, 2009 Moderators Share Posted April 1, 2009 As the richest country in the world of course the US will be ahead in some aspects of its health care program but in general the current system does not serve the average American as well as the average European, Canadian. Quote: Third world countries,any country with socialized medicine,our welfare recipients,medicare cannot be charged the full price. The able bodied middle class and the wealthy of the US underwrite 75% of the world drug cost. Wonder how it will work when so many that take their medical care for granted face the nasty little truth. What country would you suggest when my husband was a candidate for a new,high tech procedure? Should we have taken him to Canada where everything is free? Funny how there were Canadians there for the same thing? Why not stay where it is free? Give you a little guess. Err.....I'm not sure where you got your info from, please post it. Reducing the Cost of Prescription Drugs http://dorgan.senate.gov/issues/families/rx/index.cfm In March 2009, Senator Dorgan introduced bipartisan legislation with Senators Olympia Snowe (R-ME), John McCain (R-AZ), Debbie Stabenow (D-MI), and others to bring down the high cost of prescription drugs in this country. The legislation, the "Pharmaceutical Market Access and Drug Safety Act," will bring consumers immediate relief and will ultimately force the pharmaceutical industry to lower drug prices in the United States. The bill allows U.S.-licensed pharmacies and drug wholesalers to import FDA-approved medications from Canada, Europe, Australia, New Zealand and Japan and pass along the savings to their American customers. This approach will allow Americans to benefit from prices in these countries, which are 35 to 55 percent lower than in the U.S., while still enabling consumers to receive medications at their local pharmacy. The legislation would also allow individual consumers to purchase prescription drugs for their own personal use from safe, reliable, FDA-inspected Canadian pharmacies. The Congressional Budget Office estimates the bill would save American consumers $50 billion over the next decade, including more than $10 billion in federal government savings. North Dakotans alone are expected to save more than $112 million. The legislation does more than just make drug importation legal-it makes it safe. The bill includes a range of safety features intended to guarantee that only safe, FDA-approved prescription drugs are imported. Dorgan and Snowe introduced bipartisan legislation that had over 30 Senate co-sponsors in the last session of Congress, including President Obama and Senator John McCain. The legislation has strong bipartisan support and has been endorsed by a number of consumer organizations including the AARP. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Quote: As the richest country in the world of course the US will be ahead in some aspects of its health care program but in general the current system does not serve the average American as well as the average European, Canadian. Most can pick up a phone and be seen within a day or two or within hours if necessary.If I need access to expensive tests I can having them without going to another country. Our care is not rationed. I need to take a little time to locate the article. Both our insurance agent and the pharmacy has said exactly the same thing. In addition other countries love to slam the US because our medical care is not "free" Their price controls and the taking advantage of and been very happy to allow the US to pay the full cost of research and develpoment of drugs and medical advancement. Maybe a little gratitude that the US is generous enough to make their cheap drugs and medical possible. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted April 1, 2009 Moderators Share Posted April 1, 2009 Most can pick up a phone and be seen within a day or two or within hours if necessary. maybe if you live in a rural community. To have our kids seen by a pediatrician, in the "burbs", you'll have to wait a couple of weeks. A lot of folks I know complain about it. Quote: If I need access to expensive tests I can having them without going to another country. Our care is not rationed. Did not say it was rationed. Its not rationed where I come from either. In essence its not "free" I paid for health care in the UK. I paid for it through my taxes. That system allowed the poorer family to have full pre-natal care just like my wife did. That's great if you ask me. No one is saying the US system is all bad and does not have good points. I'm saying it can be better. What would you suggest that the insurance companies could do to reduce costs and enable the 40 million who have no coverage to get coverage? Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted April 1, 2009 Administrators Share Posted April 1, 2009 Or have the drug companies reduce the cost of medicine to American citizens the way they do for foreign countries? Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Or have the drug companies reduce the cost of medicine to American citizens the way they do for foreign countries? Really? Most of the drugs sold cheaply in Canada come from the US. Maybe the rate that canadians pay is possible because of the amount we pay. Maybe we will see the day when canadians step forward, lead the way in research and development ,spend the enormous amount of money to get a drug to market,only one in five actually make it,then provide the US with reasonably priced drugs. That would be refreshing Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Quote: maybe if you live in a rural community. To have our kids seen by a pediatrician, in the "burbs", you'll have to wait a couple of weeks. A lot of folks I know complain about it. I should have clarified. If you have a sick child or if you are the one needing a Dr,it would be odd to have to wait 2 weeks.If you are really to sick to wait and a Dr refuses to see you,urgent care clinics are numerous. Those are walk ins. Many people will complain if they cannot have something on demand. Maybe because the bulk of all medical advancements comes from the US. Quote: In essence its not "free" I paid for health care in the UK. I paid for it through my taxes. That system allowed the poorer family to have full pre-natal care just like my wife did. That's great if you ask me. Maybe like the young family I know that just had a baby. no insurance and job loss. Was provided great pre-natal care and put on a completely reasonable payment plan Or maybe our young neighbor. Decided it would be fun to have a baby. Wanted a bi-racial child as "they are so cute". No husband or father to support her or child. Morbidly obese,developed gestational diabetes. By-pass surgery. She lost 75 lbs and then began what got her into the problem in the first place. Many,many thousands of dollars went into her care. Paid for by the imperfect US. Quote: No one is saying the US system is all bad and does not have good points. I'm saying it can be better. Yes,the US could be perfect or at least as perfect as the socialized medicine countries. Maybe if the countries and people that love to condemn would actively work towards all paying their fair share we could be as respected as other countries. Not to fear tho,as long as we remain a free country we will provide the drugs and medical procedures Quote: What would you suggest that the insurance companies could do to reduce costs and enable the 40 million who have no coverage to get coverage? I don't believe there are 40 million that are without insurance involuntarily. We went without insurance voluntarily for several years. It was our decision,one I never expected someone else to pay for. I would also expect those that feel insurance is mandatory,get another job. Many people work two jobs,my husband one of them. Most that complain they cannot afford it would stil complain if it were cheaper. Unless it were at the taxpayers expense. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Quote: Did not say it was rationed. Its not rationed where I come from either. Oh, but it has to be. No one, not even government, has unlimited resources. Therefore, everything is rationed one way or another. Waiting lists are one way of rationing. High prices are another. But it has to be rationed. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted April 1, 2009 Administrators Share Posted April 1, 2009 I knew a woman, too, who ended up single and pregnant. Because of an inpropriety on her husband's part, she separated from her husband. She had 3 other children. She had her baby at home, not being able to afford medical care. Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Some months ago I watched program on health care . I am pretty sure it was the UK. It seems that those brought to the hospital by ambulance,which would signal to me a emergency type situation. Waits in the ambulance of 1/2 or more was not considered uncommon. Would much rather work a bit harder and pay my own way Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 I knew a woman, too, who ended up single and pregnant. Because of an inpropriety on her husband's part, she separated from her husband. She had 3 other children. She had her baby at home, not being able to afford medical care. I don't know about other women but I did not mysteriously "end up pregnant" Something on her part contributed to another child. Aside from that as the best laid plans go astray at times,she would not have been denied. Regardless of what you have heard there is more to simply not being able to afford. No job or a low paying job she would have qualified for programs to help those just like her. Having a baby at home is no longer unusual or always solely because of cost. We have a family in church that did not have insurance,poor planning and having 4 children,all born at home. The first one being born before the financial situation and no insurance. M Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 I knew a woman, too, who ended up single and pregnant. Because of an inpropriety on her husband's part, she separated from her husband. She had 3 other children. She had her baby at home, not being able to afford medical care. If she was covered for the first three because was married and her husband's insurance covered her,it would cover her regardless of the divorce. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted April 1, 2009 Administrators Share Posted April 1, 2009 For some reason it didn't, whether he wasn't working at the time or somehow otherwise wasn't effective by the time it came for her to have the baby, I can't remember. I just remember how people were talking about it on this side of the border, where the family had attended church. Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 For some reason it didn't, whether he wasn't working at the time or somehow otherwise wasn't effective by the time it came for her to have the baby, I can't remember. I just remember how people were talking about it on this side of the border, where the family had attended church. Perfect system,no we don't have one. Neither do those in other countries that benefit from what we provide the world. Knowledge or care or drugs that other countries don't develop. Besides this woman would not have been turned away. Hospitals have a built in budget that allows just for that type situation. Generally funded by alumni of the facility. If there is any ability to pay at all,a very low payment plan with a reduction in cost is usually given Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 One of our sons had a very nasty break in his ankle. He required a orthopedic surgeon. We didn't have insurance at the time. There was not the slightest hesitation in getting the help he needed. After the surgery a very reasonable payment plan was offered. One we were happy to pay. And yes, we had to work a bit harder to pay for it. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted April 1, 2009 Moderators Share Posted April 1, 2009 Quote: Yes,the US could be perfect or at least as perfect as the socialized medicine countries. Maybe if the countries and people that love to condemn would actively work towards all paying their fair share we could be as respected as other countries. Not to fear tho,as long as we remain a free country we will provide the drugs and medical procedures Who has said any country's system is Perfect? Who has condemned any country here? Who has said people should not pay their fair share? Who said one particular country is not respected? What is the free country you are talking about? You seem to be rejecting a lot of ideas or suggestions that have not been made. Does criticism of the US mean that people think their countries are perfect? Does criticism mean condemnation to you? My understanding of fair may mean that the unemployed person may path nothing for their hip replacement but the rest who are employed may have to pay 20 cents more in taxes. I could go on but there seems to be a lot of projection going on here. You seem to be arguing against points or sentiments that have not been expressed. Perfection, Condemnation, Respect, Fair Share.....hmmm. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Our children were all born at home, and not due to lack of insurance, but because it is demonstrably safer. So far, all of our grandchildren have also been born at home. Same reason. Oddly, our daughter-in-law was refused pre-natal care for the last one, when she made it clear that she planned a home birth. I did not say this before, but the statistics are crystal clear on this. One major reason for higher infant mortality rates in the U.S. is because of medical intervention in pregnancy. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 1. Who has said any country's system is Perfect? Phrase it as you will. Do you see EVER complaints about the medical care of .Canadian,Germany,Sweden etc What you do see is countries that take advantage of our knowledge,our research, and access to those treatments in our country as well when they cannot get it in a timely fashion in their own countries. 2.who has condemned any country here? Depends on what condemnation sound like to you. To me someone that makes statement of "Not believing citizens had to choose between home and medication in a civilized country". That was not meant as a compliment. It is also said as if this is typical which it is not. 3.who has said people should not pay their fair share? Socialized medicine is inherently unfair. Apparently the woman you referenced of waiting for 11 years ,waited because she did not have the money. If I have the money,have worked for it honestly,someone else does not have it and does not work it is unfair. Excluding those that are unable to work. What I choose to do with my money to help another is up to me. 4.Who said one particular country is not respected? When one country is singled out for negative comments it is pretty obvious. Would show same if I always signaled one race out for negative comments. Be pretty safe bet that I did not have much respect for that specific race 5.What is the free country you are talking about? The only one I know is the US for a time yet. Bit by bit that will cease to be true 6.You seem to be rejecting a lot of ideas or suggestions that have not been made. No what I reject is the attempt to suggest and at times say what is said concerning our health care. Not perfect but not what so many would like to make it be. What I would like to see is those that continue to do this refuse to take part of the generosity of the US. To bad we can't keep it all to ourselves and watch other countries play catch up. Canada gets at least over half it's prescription drugs from us. They maybe should start producing their own 7.Does criticism of the US mean that people think their countries are perfect? Kind of defies logic our calling it anything different. When other countries with socialized medicine want us to follow their example they certainly have to be pleased or jealous. Even tho there is a mountain of information on how well it is not working 8. Does criticism mean condemnation to you? Yes, as a matter of fact when it is only one singled out for criticism by others that have many problems in their own countries. Back to same as it would be taken if all criticism were leveled at one race over and over. 9. My understanding of fair may mean that the unemployed person may path nothing for their hip replacement but the rest who are employed may have to pay 20 cents more in taxes. No, that isn't fair and saying 20 cents more in taxes isn't even realistic. Any one that needs medical help should have it. If as in your example someone is employed when he breaks his hip,he should have some responsibility in paying when healed and employed. Just like so many of us have had to do. No one owes me medical care,food,a right to a house,educating my children. They only owe me the right to work as hard as I want or can to obtain what I want or need. Let me pursue what makes me happy,no one owes it to me. 10.I could go on but there seems to be a lot of projection going on here. You seem to be arguing against points or sentiments that have not been expressed. No you would like be to be arguing against points not made. Go back and look. Pregnant woman can't get medical care. Simply untrue. For most everyone there is medical available. Some will always slip thru the cracks but of course it does everywhere. Never has it been acknowledged that socialized medicine countries have any problems,only "caring for their citizens" I don't want someone taking care of me,I want to pick my DR and have what he believes I need. That does not belong to any government. I want to raise and educate my children how I feel is best. Their well being was up to my husband and myself. I don't want to be penalized for my husband having the motivation to own his own business and work as he sees the need for. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Originally Posted By: Gail Or have the drug companies reduce the cost of medicine to American citizens the way they do for foreign countries? Really? Most of the drugs sold cheaply in Canada come from the US. Maybe the rate that canadians pay is possible because of the amount we pay. Bonnie, it sounds to me like that was exactly Gail's point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Originally Posted By: bonnie Really? Most of the drugs sold cheaply in Canada come from the US. Maybe the rate that canadians pay is possible because of the amount we pay. Bonnie' date=' it sounds to me like that was exactly Gail's point. [/quote'] No,I don't think so. Having drug companies reduce the cost is what was said. Someone is going to pay for the millions it takes to get a drug to market. I think it is something like only one in five drugs ever reach market. Maybe if everyone world wide pays their share that would be possible. Or maybe countries that take advantage of what we produce,start producing it in their own country Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Originally Posted By: Gail I knew a woman, too, who ended up single and pregnant. Because of an inpropriety on her husband's part, she separated from her husband. She had 3 other children. She had her baby at home, not being able to afford medical care. I don't know about other women but I did not mysteriously "end up pregnant" Something on her part contributed to another child. I can't see that Gail said anything about it being "mysterious." She simply said a woman ended up single and pregnant due to an impropriety on her husband's part. It sounds like the impropriety is what led to her become single. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Originally Posted By: carolaa Bonnie' date=' it sounds to me like that was exactly Gail's point. [/quote'] No,I don't think so. Having drug companies reduce the cost is what was said. I think her point was that America could consider providing drugs as cheaply to its own citizens as it does to other countries in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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