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[bonnie]

Quote:

The US was not founded on socialism.It was founded on freedoms

The two are not mutually exclusive.

Your logic is faulty.

Then we disagree. Freedom from any form of tyranny was our base.

Our freedom to fall flat on our face,our freedom to get up and start again. Freedom to reach as high as we could.

Our freedom from unreasonable taxation . Freedom from our president to target a specific group and promise punishment for people that had not broken any law.

Freedom from taking my money to give to another.

You still evade the real issue. You are doing same as Neil refusing to answer and instead tried to make it my responsibility why he was refusing.

Explain please how my logic is faulty? You believe Obama is a socialist and you are fine with that. Great. how do you like his lies about who he is and what he stands for.

If what you believe to be true concerning socialism then Obama had no reason to lie by words and actions. He should not have run as a democrat.

If he had tried honesty and won,so be it. He didn't. His whole presidency is base on a lie.

I don't know about you but when someone is afraid to stand on his principals whatever they be and claims to be something else I don't believe he should be president of the US

[lazarus]

Then we disagree. Freedom from any form of tyranny was our base.

So really the USA has been a dictatorship since the new deal!

[qoute]

Our freedom to fall flat on our face,our freedom to get up and start again.

No VA hospitals then

No unemployment benefits then

No Headstart for kids then.

Quote:

Freedom from our president to target a specific group and promise punishment for people that had not broken any law.

?

Quote:

Freedom from taking my money to give to another.

No more taxation then

No more defense spending

No USA aid

No more special ed

Quote:

how do you like his lies about who he is and what he stands for.

this is new! Don't tell me he's a member of the illuminati!

[bonnie]

It would be helpful to stick to what was said and not expand on it to make it say as you wished it had been said

Quote:

So really the USA has been a dictatorship since the new deal!

It would be helpful to stick to what was said and not expand on it to make it say as you wished it had been said.

But as to the new deal it was a total disaster.

Did we begin the slide? Yes we did.

I have not said that Obama is not a socialist.

Quote:

No VA hospitals then

No unemployment benefits then

No Headstart for kids then.

We will probably lose the VA benefits so that may be a yes.

The defense of our country,those that defend it,deserve to be cared for by us,the recipients.

I am all for unemployment benefits as long as they are paid by the recipient. If they are frugal and with an eye towards taking care of unemployment when it arises,great.

I don't see why an employer owes an employee anything except a fair wage for job well done and safe working conditions.The employer does not become a caretaker that assures me a continued check when I am no longer doing the job.

I would love to see Headstart disbanded.

Quote:

Freedom from our president to target a specific group and promise punishment for people that had not broken any law.

Seems again this one is left without comment.Should we or should we not be free of becoming a target by the president towards those that had not broken any law?

Pretense of shock and outrage by him and others,knowing from the beginning this was in the terms and approving it.

Quote:

No more taxation then

No more defense spending

No USA aid

No more special ed

Let me clarify if you truly are questioning.

Penalties in the form of taxes to go after those that receive bonuses. As in at least 90%

Laying a heavier burden on small business just because they can .Taking from one group to redistribute their money to someone else.

We need a strong military,we need to care for those that have given all in our defense.

Personally I would have no problem cutting back on USA aid. It is never enough,never done right and very rarely reciprocated.

I have never indicated that those that are vulnerable and handicapped should not be cared for. Problem comes in that to many that could get off their back sides don't and there just isn't enough.

Quote:

how do you like his lies about who he is and what he stands for.

this is new! Don't tell me he's a member of the illuminati!

[bonnie]

Just another try at getting a answer without trying to divert the responsibility elsewhere.

You said

Quote:

I have not said that Obama is not a socialist.

As you certainly are not denying my belief that Obama is a socialist and that socialism is a good thing......

Should he have run as a socialist in a open and honest manner.

As good as you feel socialism is would you have liked to see him step forward and acknowledge he wants socialist programs?

Should he have lied to the american people as to AIG bonuses?

Should he have professed outrage and shock when "he claimed to have found out"

Should he have explained to the american people that he knew of the bonuses and that he and a few from his party okayed them?

Should he have help create the climate that brought threats to those that had not broken a law and their families.

None of the above can be answered or countered with the arguments you and others put forth

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

The politicians and greedy, irresponsible Americans have been strangling America for several decades now. And who have been presidents for all that time?

All the overt hysteria from the right wing on this forum is so ridiculous. In 72 days this country has been "destroyed", become "socialist" blah, blah , blah.

Is your fear so overwhelming that you are losing all sense of perspective? This so bizarre!

Me? Hysterical? Now, that's a laugher to anyone who really knows me!

Me? Right wing? Now, that's another laugher to those who know my politics!

Friend, I've lost confidence in both parties. For years I believed the Republican line that they were the fiscally responsible party, only to realize that they are the party that cut taxes but spend more. And the other? It's true, tax and spend, spend and tax.

[lazarus]

It would be helpful to stick to what was said and not expand on it to make it say as you wished it had been said.

I'm trying to get to the reality of your rhetoric. It's great to throw out these lofty sentiments about freedom and tyranny but what are the "real-world" implications of what you are saying.....

socialism = tyranny

If the New Deal was socialism. I assume from your perspective it is.

Therefore the US has been socialist......under tyranny since the New Deal.

Quote:

Did we begin the slide?

who said anything about slide? So we've been sliding for all these years then 72 days ago we fell off. LOL.

Quote:

The defense of our country,those that defend it,deserve to be cared for by us,the recipients.

Why? Pay them and enough and let them take care of themselves.

Does that include Police officers, Fire officers, EMT's.

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I am all for unemployment benefits as long as they are paid by the recipient.

Folks who receive unemployment have contributed toward their benefits.

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I would love to see Headstart disbanded.

So how would low income children with IEP's receive the extra help they need?

Quote:

Freedom from our president to target a specific group and promise punishment for people that had not broken any law.

? = what are you talking about?

Quote:

Pretense of shock and outrage by him and others,knowing from the beginning this was in the terms and approving it.

Please provide links/evidence that Obama was pretending shock/outrage/that he approved and knew about bonuses.

Quote:

No more taxation then

No more defense spending

No USA aid

No more special ed

Let me clarify if you truly are questioning.

Penalties in the form of taxes to go after those that receive bonuses. As in at least 90%

Laying a heavier burden on small business just because they can

Quote:

That is the essence of all taxation.

Quote:

We need a strong military,we need to care for those that have given all in our defense.

Again pay them enough and let them take care of themselves!

Personally I would have no problem cutting back on USA aid.

Quote:

It is never enough,

The poor you will always be with us

Quote:

never done right

Never?????...Not true, Wrong

I have members who work for World Vision/USA Aid. They do an incredible job. I know the work they do. Know folk who work in Gaza, Sudan, Ethiopia, Rawanda.

Quote:

and very rarely reciprocated.

In what circumstances and by what means would it be reciprocated? Uh? How much aid should the DRC send to the poor parts of Georgia?

Quote:

I have never indicated that those that are vulnerable and handicapped should not be cared for. Problem comes in that to many that could get off their back sides don't and there just isn't enough.

What percentage of those parents with kids who are "Downs", autistic, aspurgers, blind etc who are receiving help should be getting off their backsides?

50%, 70%, 10%

where do you get this stuff from. So many of "these" people should get off their backsides??????

Quote:

how do you like his lies about who he is and what he stands for.

?????

When has Obama lied about what he stands for??????

[lazarus]

Originally Posted By: lazarus

All the overt hysteria from the right wing on this forum is so ridiculous. In 72 days this country has been "destroyed", become "socialist" blah, blah , blah.

Is your fear so overwhelming that you are losing all sense of perspective? This so bizarre! [/quote']

Me? Hysterical? Now, that's a laugher to anyone who really knows me!

Me? Right wing? Now, that's another laugher to those who know my politics!

Friend, I've lost confidence in both parties. For years I believed the Republican line that they were the fiscally responsible party, only to realize that they are the party that cut taxes but spend more. And the other? It's true, tax and spend, spend and tax.

No, No, No,

I didn't mean YOU! I was actually agreeing with you and tagging on. Sorry If I was unclear.

[olger]

It wasn't socialism that made America unique & great.

[lazarus]

It was the same activities and atitudes that made every great nation great and unique.

[olger]

The US is more uniquer and more great,

`oG

[Bravus]

It's very simple, Laz: taxes for buying equipment to kill people - good, taxes for helping people - bad

Once you understand that, you understand everything

[bonnie]

Quote:

It would be helpful to stick to what was said and not expand on it to make it say as you wished it had been said.

I'm trying to get to the reality of your rhetoric. It's great to throw out these lofty sentiments about freedom and tyranny but what are the "real-world" implications of what you are saying.....

socialism = tyranny

If the New Deal was socialism. I assume from your perspective it is.

Therefore the US has been socialist......under tyranny since the New Deal.

[bonnie]

The US is more uniquer and more great,

`oG

And you are it seems are pretending to understand it this way.

That has never been said.

I happen to believe that the US is part of bible prophesy.

It was and continues yet for awhile to be a free nation of sorts. Bit by bit that will change. At least that is what bible prophecy tells me. The US cannot stand as it was. It needs the citizens to be willing accomplices to do what will take place.

More and more that is happening.

Yes, I think it is happening with Obama,to many want to turn their responsibilities to the government and be taken care of.

Maybe the difference in opinion is because of what I believe bible prophecy to say and some of you have other ideas.

Will it be 1 yr,10 years,20years,no one knows

[lazarus]

Bonnie

What I have read in you posting is a collection of rhetorical assertions with no supporting evidence.

Quote:

I believe that when we began the "give" and "give" we laid the groundwork for those like Obama to "take and take"

The US started the socialized slide and yes it is accelerating at RAPID PACE.

What does this mean????

So Obama is faking his rage. How on this earth do you know that?

You have no evidence.

Obama knew about the bonuses. Where is the "tick-tock, quotes, leaked information to support that.

You have no evidence.

Quote:

You cannot pay enough to take care of the many things these many and women face.

do you really mean that? Give them 10 million each. Again rhetoric.

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Those like Obama wants to cut them loose and force them into private insurance

You just made that up right?

My question was "So how would low income children with IEP's receive the extra help they need?"

And this was your answer.......

"The making of the low income less able or less interested in their children's welfare is nothing but a slap in the face. Unless the government is trying to make up for the lack of low income parents. Unless their is backup in the home and that is not a cost factor,it is not a way to make up for the parents lack. Low income does not and should not influence the time parents take with their children."

????????????????????????????????????

Just because someone says he [Obama] knew it does not mean he knew. You present it as fact and label him a liar. You don't know for sure that he knew. How could you?

Quote:

Deliberately attempting to twist what was said. Rather a curious behavior from a pastor.

Why do you right wingers always retreat to this stuff? LOL? I hope you don't try to run this kind of guilt trip on your own pastor, you little invalidator you!

[lazarus]

It's very simple, Laz: taxes for buying equipment to kill people - good, taxes for helping people - bad

Once you understand that, you understand everything

yeah, you're right...............as usual!

[there buster]

Quote:

So Obama is faking his rage. How on this earth do you know that?

You have no evidence.

Obama knew about the bonuses. Where is the "tick-tock, quotes, leaked information to support that.

You have no evidence.

NPR, via the AP.

Quote:

Obama Aides, Lawmakers Knew Of AIG Bonus Plan

by Julie Hirschfeld Davis, Associated Press Writer

Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner appears at the White House.

Enlarge

Gerald Herbert

The AIG bonus situation has the White House and Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner on the defensive. AP

NPR.org, March 18, 2009 · For months, the Obama administration and members of Congress have known that insurance giant AIG was getting ready to pay huge bonuses while living off government bailouts. It wasn't until the money was flowing and news was trickling out to the public that official Washington rose up in anger and vowed to yank the money back.

Why the sudden furor, just weeks after President Obama's team paid out $30 billion in additional aid to the company? So far, the administration has been unable to match its actions to Obama's tough rhetoric on executive compensation. And Congress has been unable or unwilling to restrict bonuses for bailout recipients, despite some lawmakers' repeated efforts to do so.

The situation has the White House and Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner on the defensive. The administration was caught off guard Tuesday trying to explain why Geithner had waited until March 11 to call AIG chief executive Edward Liddy and demand that the bonus payments be restructured.

You have your choice: either he is lying, or he is incompetent.

[bonnie]

Quote:

What does this mean????

Exactly what it said.

Quote:

So Obama is faking his rage. How on this earth do you know that?

You have no evidence.

Obama knew about the bonuses. Where is the "tick-tock, quotes, leaked information to support that.

You have no evidence.

This is one of the many reports that says otherwise

You can not express shock and outrage over something you have known for sometime,unless the shock and outrage were expressed when first known. He lied,plain and simple

Quote:

NPR.org, March 18, 2009 · For months, the Obama administration and members of Congress have known that insurance giant AIG was getting ready to pay huge bonuses while living off government bailouts. It wasn't until the money was flowing and news was trickling out to the public that official Washington rose up in anger and vowed to yank the money back.

Quote:

do you really mean that? Give them 10 million each. Again rhetoric.

Again you are being foolish while trying to mock.

Giving most people 10 million dollars does not change their behavior,just makes more of the same easier

Quote:

You just made that up right?

Not unless you believe Obama made it up just for the fun of it. Obama has said he wants to have the vets on private insurance and cut lose from government care.

Quote:

My question was "So how would low income children with IEP's receive the extra help they need?"

And this was your answer.......

"The making of the low income less able or less interested in their children's welfare is nothing but a slap in the face. Unless the government is trying to make up for the lack of low income parents. Unless their is backup in the home and that is not a cost factor,it is not a way to make up for the parents lack. Low income does not and should not influence the time parents take with their children."

????????????????????????????????????

How would children of low income families learn?? Low income does not make incompetent parents less incompetent. Low income is not new or novel. Maybe the same way my siblings and I learned. Our family would have made a chruch mouse look wealthy.

Our parents did their job at home,not expecting the government to do it as if low income made then incapable

Quote:

Just because someone says he [Obama] knew it does not mean he knew. You present it as fact and label him a liar. You don't know for sure that he knew. How could you?

How could I know?? Because I read,because i understand when articles and information,and his actions say he did. Try this one again

Quote:

NPR.org, March 18, 2009 · For months, the Obama administration and members of Congress have known that insurance giant AIG was getting ready to pay huge bonuses while living off government bailouts. It wasn't until the money was flowing and news was trickling out to the public that official Washington rose up in anger and vowed to yank the money back.

Quote:

Why do you right wingers always retreat to this stuff? LOL? I hope you don't try to run this kind of guilt trip on your own pastor, you little invalidator you!

Because you left wingers retreat to pick and choose.

I would certainly tell a pastor that was doing that. No,a guilt trip is usually ineffective as the one twisting needs to keep twisting as a means of defense for an opinion he cannot validate thru other means

[bonnie]

If giving without time limits and without requirements were going to suddenly make some parents better parents or give enough to lift people from poverty it would have happened before now especially with Lyndon Johnson's war on poverty. That has only maintained many on the government dole and robbed them of their own desire to succeed.

Big difference between a hand up when needed and a continuing hand out.

A little example my parents always used.

When Christ healed the cripple by the pool. He could have helped him up,he could have commanded others to set him on his feet. Instead he chose to make the man a part of his own miracle. He needed "to get up and walk" We are expected to do same.

Hand outs damage the receiver in many ways.

Look at Katrina,still those living in FEMA trailers and whing they have not been moved.

Government will take care of. I would not be afraid to bet you give most of these people a time limit. 30 days to land a job,30 days to find their own place to live,FEMA pays a final payment of first and last months rent. From there if they are still sitting in this trailers whining after the 30 days move them out.

Don't think to many would still be there. They are there because they can milk the system. The system did not take their homes.

[there buster]

Across the state of Iowa there was flooding last summer that affected just as many people as Katrina. But here, we simply went to work and cleaned things up. Government STILL has done almost nothing here, and what it has done took months. If we had waited and whined, it would be more in the news.

Around here, people take responsibility and exercise initiative.

[bonnie]

Across the state of Iowa there was flooding last summer that affected just as many people as Katrina. But here, we simply went to work and cleaned things up. Government STILL has done almost nothing here, and what it has done took months. If we had waited and whined, it would be more in the news.

Around here, people take responsibility and exercise initiative.

The government only does well with taking motivation and responsibility from people and replacing with a dependency on ineffective handouts

[Gerr]

It's very simple, Laz: taxes for buying equipment to kill people - good, taxes for helping people - bad

Once you understand that, you understand everything

Hey, that's a new line I never heard before, Bravus!

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

It's very simple, Laz: taxes for buying equipment to kill people - good, taxes for helping people - bad

Once you understand that, you understand everything

Hey, that's a new line I never heard before, Bravus!

Totally false as well. Interesting that there is a need for some to continue to try to have responses say what they wish was said instead of what was actually said

[Neil D]

Guys and gals....

Bonnie's post shows that we need to use that " [/tic]" more often....and for all the newbies out there who don't know us that well....Just a curteousy, guys and gals....

[bonnie]

Guys and gals....

Bonnie's post shows that we need to use that " [/tic]" more often....and for all the newbies out there who don't know us that well....Just a curteousy, guys and gals....

No Neil,no TIC.

The desire to slant what someone else has said is done by a few of you.

Whether Bravus claims a TIC comment,it is more than that.

Something to mock those that do not agree with him

[Bravus]

I agree with bonnie on this one: that comment was not tongue in cheek. Read through all of bonnie's prior posts about what taxes are good and what are bad, and tell me that my comment is not a succinct summary of the whole thing.