R I P

[Bravus]

If you don't consider that a fair summary of your views, bonnie, why not create a simple table of 'legitimate uses for taxes' and 'illegitimate uses for taxes' in a post?

[olger]

It's very simple, Laz: taxes for buying equipment to kill people - good, taxes for helping people - bad

Once you understand that, you understand everything

So you are a warmonger. Help yourself.

`oG

[bonnie]

I agree with bonnie on this one: that comment was not tongue in cheek. Read through all of bonnie's prior posts about what taxes are good and what are bad, and tell me that my comment is not a succinct summary of the whole thing.

You along with a couple of other posters have a strong tendency

to twist and make someone else's statement mean what you wish had been said.

I have never said the vulnerable among us do not need to be taking care of. Am I opposed to a life of welfare and handouts.YES. That has a insidious effect on those we claim to be helping.

If we expected more of many of them we would be in better position to help the truly vulnerable,those that cannot help themselves.

No,I would not rather see people killed. I would rather see people off welfare roles and become productive citizens.

When we create such a dependency it is not kindness.

Statements as to people like those still in FEMA trailers needing to be booted off may sound to you as if I would rather spend the money to kill people. It is time they began taking responsibility for their lives and that of their families. If they are disabled and cannot take care of themselves then they need to be taken care of.

Just so you don't get confused again.

1. I am all for a hand up. Even if some receiving it have caused their own problem.

2. I am not for a continuing hand out.

3. I am all for those with special needs children receiving the help they need.

4.Vulnerable citizens of our country should be helped.

5. Most on welfare are not in that position.

6. A strong defense system for our country.Yes,but Obama has other ideas.

7. Taking care of our vets. Yes. Many have given their lives for us. Many have given their health.

8. The government needs to be responsible for the infrastructure of our country.

[bonnie]

If you don't consider that a fair summary of your views, bonnie, why not create a simple table of 'legitimate uses for taxes' and 'illegitimate uses for taxes' in a post?

While you were posting I was doing exactly that.

I believe you know it wasn't a fair summery.

[bonnie]

Welfare recipients that are able bodied should not be allowed at taxpayer expense for years.

A cap on welfare benefits worked quite well here but will be lifted as part of the money the less than bright governor accepted.

If they continue to have children while on welfare they should lose custody of those children.

There is little excuse for welfare women to have multiple accidental pregnancies.

Their birth control of choice is free for them,even abortion.

[Bravus]

It was a simplification. But you're still spending a huge amount of energy delineating the people taxes *shouldn't* help - much more than goes into figuring out who they should. Are you able to just say 'some people really do need help, and giving them that help is one of the things taxes are for?' and just leave it there?

[jasd]

However, for those of us who've been here awhile, and are familiar with the sentiments expressed by our guy from down under...

[/tic]

in the instance above may really be a misapplication

[bonnie]

It was a simplification. But you're still spending a huge amount of energy delineating the people taxes *shouldn't* help - much more than goes into figuring out who they should. Are you able to just say 'some people really do need help, and giving them that help is one of the things taxes are for?' and just leave it there?

No huge amount of energy at all.

Taxes that keep on giving to those that can take care of themselves with some effort should not be getting taxpayer money.

Doesn't matter how they may have gotten there give them a hand up.Welfare for a short specified time Not making them hapless victims.

The majority of people that are living off the welfare roll have no business on there.

They have no business having baby after baby. Those that are vulnerable,sick,elderly needing help need all the help we can give them. Would be a whole lot easier to help the needy if the not so needy would take some initiative.

My husband contracted with HUD to paint the HUD homes.

Home after home had to be redone within a year. Welfare families moved in and just trashed everything. Each time one moved the mess he would find was a given.

Taxpayer dollar so why should they care. There were frequently men in the home. Whether married to the tenet or not I have no idea. Their days seemed to be spent drinking beer and laying on the couch watching TV.

That happened many times.

What a waste of money

[Bravus]

I agree, but the point is the emphasis. Count your words on the 'undeserving' versus on the 'deserving' poor.

[bonnie]

I agree, but the point is the emphasis. Count your words on the 'undeserving' versus on the 'deserving' poor.

I don't need to count the words. The undeserving poor believe they have a right to take from my pocket and put it in theirs. expecting people to work harder and take care of them.

The young girl down the street that has a child "because she thought it would be cool to have a baby". She does not deserve to live her life on welfare. She might even consider working.

She depletes an already stressed ability for the government to pay.

No one has a "right" to take money from me and use it as theirs.

What should be done from a moral and humanitarian standpoint is not a right.It is what a moral and caring society should feel compelled to do.

No one sitting in a Fema trailer all this time waiting for the federal or state government needs to quit waiting for their right to someone elses's money.

My husband and I lost everything we owned. It was there then gone. No diapers even for the baby.

It did not take us or the others in the same position years looking out the window waiting for "our right to someone else's hardwork"

There is no excuse for that,other than they are parasites on society.With the exception of handicaps they need to get off their backsides.

Handicaps alone do not stop a lot of people. It is not unusual to see those with handicaps working. More power to them. They don't want special privileges,they want to be independent.

It is not a kindness to keep giving and giving. Those that need the immediate help of a meal and shelter should get it and then they need to be responsible for themselves.

The undeserving poor need to get their hands out of my pocket

[lazarus]

When Christ healed the cripple by the pool. He could have helped him up,he could have commanded others to set him on his feet. Instead he chose to make the man a part of his own miracle. He needed "to get up and walk" We are expected to do same.

He gave the "hand out" of "new" legs. The man could not do that for himself! It's revealing that you latch onto the get up and walk part not the healing part.

"Hand outs damage the receiver in many ways"

Jesus was handing out gifts of healing all over the place. It was free!

[lazarus]

Quote:

You have your choice: either he is lying, or he is incompetent.

Is it possible that this report got it wrong?

Is it possible that he did not know? Are you seriously expecting that the president should know the details of all the Tarp recipients bonus packages?

Is it possible he knew about bonuses but not the scale?

[lazarus]

Quote:

1. I am all for a hand up. Even if some receiving it have caused their own problem.

we agree on that

Quote:

2. I am not for a continuing hand out.

we agree on that but it depends on what continuing means.

Quote:

3. I am all for those with special needs children receiving the help they need.

4.Vulnerable citizens of our country should be helped.

Agreed.

Quote:

5. Most on welfare are not in that position.

So you're saying at least 51% of those on welfare don't need it.

Quote:

6. A strong defense system for our country.Yes,but Obama has other ideas.

Obama believes in a strong defense. Kept Gates on should be evidence enough.

Quote:

7. Taking care of our vets. Yes. Many have given their lives for us. Many have given their health.

Agreed

Quote:

8. The government needs to be responsible for the infrastructure of our country.

Agreed but it seems like you have a lot of socialism going on in this list

[bonnie]

Quote:

When Christ healed the cripple by the pool. He could have helped him up,he could have commanded others to set him on his feet. Instead he chose to make the man a part of his own miracle. He needed "to get up and walk" We are expected to do same.

He gave the "hand out" of "new" legs. The man could not do that for himself! It's revealing that you latch onto the get up and walk part not the healing part.

"Hand outs damage the receiver in many ways"

Jesus was handing out gifts of healing all over the place. It was free!

[there buster]

Quote:

Is it possible that he did not know? Are you seriously expecting that the president should know the details of all the Tarp recipients bonus packages?

Sen. Dodd initially put language in the bill that would have prohibited bonuses. Then someone from Treasury came (he won't say who) and asked him to change that language. This was some weeks before the bonuses.

Treasury knew. If they didn't tell the Pres., then he should fire them. He is incompetent to have appointed such. If they did tell him, or, more likely, he told them, then he's lying.

[there buster]

Quote:

The undeserving poor believe they have a right to take from my pocket and put it in theirs. expecting people to work harder and take care of them.

I prefer the undeserving poor to the preening of the self-proclaimed compassionate left.

At least those with entitlement are direct about what they want.

The preening left like to declare themselves compassionate by "caring" for others, with what someone else produced.

Will Rogers said, "I can remember when a liberal was someone who was generous with his own money."

Sad to say, I can't.

[bonnie]

Quote:

You have your choice: either he is lying, or he is incompetent.

Is it possible that this report got it wrong?

Is it possible that he did not know? Are you seriously expecting that the president should know the details of all the Tarp recipients bonus packages?

Is it possible he knew about bonuses but not the scale?

He is responsible. The buck stops with the president. Especially one that said more than once "he would go line by line" and everyone would have a chance to read what was involved.

Nancy Pelosi said it far more honestly than the president. To the republicans that complained there had been no time to read it.

"Republicans are lucky they got the time they did.

I am still waiting for the shock and outrage from Pelosi,Frank and the president over the retention bonuses of Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac. The amount greatly exceeds the amount that caused them so much angst and righteous indignation. Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac were brought to their knees by those getting the retention bonuses.

Doubtful will hear anything

[bonnie]

Quote:

2. I am not for a continuing hand out.

Quote:

we agree on that but it depends on what continuing means.

Continuing means "to continue". To continue to sit there after the handup for the continuing hand out is abusing the rights of the rest of us.

Quote:

So you're saying at least 51% of those on welfare don't need it.

I am saying I believe it is higher than 51%. The most on welfare are able bodied. As long as they are able bodied there is no excuse to make a career out of welfare. NONE

Quote:

Obama believes in a strong defense. Kept Gates on should be evidence enough.

If you are actually serious with that statement there is little point in explaining the events of the past few days and the cutting of our defense and dismantling nukes. That will be nice. Certainly NK ,China,Russia will be impressed and get rid of all theirs.

Quote:

7. Taking care of our vets. Yes. Many have given their lives for us. Many have given their health.

"Agreed"

Maybe you could use your influence to make sure he does not follow thru with cutting their health care

Quote:

8. The government needs to be responsible for the infrastructure of our country.

Quote:

Agreed but it seems like you have a lot of socialism going on in this list

That is a typical response from those trying to make the case for a much different type of socialism.

Countries have a responsibility for the safety as a nation.

The infrastructure is theirs as well.

The difference between your socialism and the "limited socialism" needed to maintain a country is miles wide

[bonnie]

Quote:

The undeserving poor believe they have a right to take from my pocket and put it in theirs. expecting people to work harder and take care of them.

I prefer the undeserving poor to the preening of the self-proclaimed compassionate left.

At least those with entitlement are direct about what they want.

The preening left like to declare themselves compassionate by "caring" for others, with what someone else produced.

Will Rogers said, "I can remember when a liberal was someone who was generous with his own money."

Sad to say, I can't.

Before Obama wants to take my money to give to someone,he shouldn't be such a piker with his own. He gives chump change and then talks about the patriotism of higher taxes to give to others

Seems he kept a pretty tight reign on that.

[Key Guy]

Bonnie, I think I'm in love. Certainly full of respect. I've been following this thread (gave up on the attempts to actually debate issues when my specific questions were constantly ignored) and you are dead on.

One point. When Jesus told the cripple to get up, the cripple had to decide whether to make the effort on his own. It was really up to him. We don't know how many people Jesus gave the same command to, only to see them shrink from making an effort.

If you run for president, you have my vote!!

[bonnie]

Bonnie, I think I'm in love. Certainly full of respect. I've been following this thread (gave up on the attempts to actually debate issues when my specific questions were constantly ignored) and you are dead on.

One point. When Jesus told the cripple to get up, the cripple had to decide whether to make the effort on his own. It was really up to him. We don't know how many people Jesus gave the same command to, only to see them shrink from making an effort.

If you run for president, you have my vote!!

Thanks LOL

We had nothing as children except parents that loved us. Because of actions of others my parents were unable to care for us as they wished and barely kept body and soul together.

I know what it is like to be hungry,cold and scared. I know what it is like to lose every thing you own. One thing our parents gave us was the knowledge that not one person on this planet owed us a thing. We had no rights to what someone else had.

We could say we didn't want to do something,or we didn't know how and didn't want to learn. What we could not say were the words "I can't".

Everyone is so entitled we are running out of those that can or are willing to keep granting entitlements .

Life has not been fair since Cain smacked Abel up side the head. I don't think things are going to suddenly reach the fairness level that so many think they deserve

[lazarus]

I am saying I believe it is higher than 51%. The most on welfare are able bodied. As long as they are able bodied there is no excuse to make a career out of welfare. NONE

Can you post some evidence other than your opinion. You seem to have it in your mind that there are masses of individuals living of the state simply because they can. Talk radio may push that propaganda but the facts don't support it

Here are the requirements for food stamps:

*

Households may have no more than $2,000 in countable resources, such as a bank account ($3,000 if at least one person in the household is age 60 or older, or is disabled). Certain resources are not counted, such as a home and lot. Special rules are used to determine the resource value of vehicles owned by household members.

*

The gross monthly income of most households must be 130 percent or less of the Federal poverty guidelines ($1,907 per month for a family of three in most places, effective Oct. 1, 2008 through Sept. 30, 2009). Gross income includes all cash payments to the household, with a few exceptions specified in the law or the program regulations.

*

Net monthly income must be 100 percent or less of Federal poverty guidelines ($1,467 per month for a household of three in most places, effective Oct. 1, 2008 through Sept. 30, 2009). Net income is figured by adding all of a household's gross income, and then taking a number of approved deductions for child care, some shelter costs and other expenses. Households with an elderly or disabled member are subject only to the net income test.

*

Most able-bodied adult applicants must meet certain work requirements.

*

All household members must provide a Social Security number or apply for one.

Of course there are swindlers but they are in the minority.

Based on a study of data gathered in Fiscal Year 2006:

*

49 percent of all participants are children (18 or younger), and 61 percent of them live in single-parent households.

*

52 percent of SNAP households include children.

*

9 percent of all participants are elderly (age 60 or over).

*

76 percent of all benefits go to households with children, 16 percent go to households with disabled persons, and 9 percent go to households with elderly persons.

*

33 percent of households with children were headed by a single parent, the overwhelming majority of which were headed by women.

*

The average household size is 2.3 persons.

*

The average gross monthly income per SNAP household is $673.

*

43 percent of participants are white; 33 percent are African-American, non-Hispanic; 19 percent are Hispanic; 2 percent are Asian, 2 percent are Native American, and less than 1 percent are of unknown race or ethnicity.

Quote:

7. Taking care of our vets. Yes. Many have given their lives for us. Many have given their health.

Quote:

Maybe you could use your influence

?????????????????????

Quote:

8. The government needs to be responsible for the infrastructure of our country.

Quote:

That is a typical response from those trying to make the case for a much different type of socialism.

Countries have a responsibility for the safety as a nation.

The infrastructure is theirs as well.

The difference between your socialism and the "limited socialism" needed to maintain a country is miles wide

I don't know how what you are advocating would be much different from what a lot of European already countries do. My guess you would consider the to be socialist.

A real free market person would get rid of welfare programs altogether, disband the education department, privatize road, rail etc., I think some even would like to see our defense be given over to the likes of Backwater.

Sorry but some of this socialism stuff has rubbed off on you.

[bonnie]

Quote:

Can you post some evidence other than your opinion.

What I can give you is experience with welfare recipients that span many years. As foster parents we took in many,many foster children. With the exception of one mother who turned to foster care temporarily,all other parents of these children were capable of working. Everyone of them.

The behavior of the one family showed a striking contrast to the career welfare children.

These children were well behaved, even to the manners you might not expect out of young children. Their mother called them every night,wonders of wonders they even knew about saying prayers at bedtime.

The other children came in belligerent,rude and required a lot of effort on our part. Even meals became a battleground till they learned we had different rules. They would demand and refuse to eat unless we went to MacDonald's.

We live in a small town. We do have a large trailer court and it is estimated 95% are on welfare. I have yet to see one disabled adult when we go for walks. What I do see is the beer and the mess and kids running wild.

The town three miles from us has quite a nice large complex of subsidized housing. Knowing some that live there I know there is not a disabled adult among them. You can see young mothers in the morning when it is hot hot. Mom with a cigarette and beer,toddlers with soggy diapers ,bottle and cookie playing on the sidewalk. There is no excuse for this and we provide it.

There is a trailer park there as well. It is on two sides of the highway. Driving by I can tell you which side has the welfare recipients.

Quote:

7. Taking care of our vets. Yes. Many have given their lives for us. Many have given their health.

Quote:

Maybe you could use your influence

Quote:

?????????????????????

Maybe you should look up the wish that Obama has and that is to take away their medical care and force them on to private insurance which of course they could not afford

Quote:

I don't know how what you are advocating would be much different from what a lot of European already countries do. My guess you would consider the to be socialist.

Most do understand the difference between America and European countries.

Especially those that sacrifice so much to come here. Odd that there isn't this long line waiting to get to this countries

Quote:

A real free market person would get rid of welfare programs altogether, disband the education department, privatize road, rail etc., I think some even would like to see our defense be given over to the likes of Backwater.

Sorry but some of this socialism stuff has rubbed off on you.

No, what has rubbed off is my religious beliefs. Again your comparisons are typical of those that try to keep diverting from the real issue

Being free market does not make one stupid or selfish. Most have the common sense from a humanitarian standpoint to care for the vulnerable. The public school system should be scrapped and began again. Less than two weeks ago one of our brillant school administrators was making special concessions for passing seniors. "You know that math test is pretty hard" so even if they don't pass we will let them graduate"

Lucky employer who hires one of these students.

Public schools are more a breeding ground for special causes than scholastic excellence

[Bravus]

[Key Guy]

(lame)