Moderators Bravus Posted April 18, 2009 Moderators Share Posted April 18, 2009 There are two separate issues. One is the conservatives/KKK comparison. The other is Lazarus' job. Can you separate them? If you say you're interested to hear his opinion on the comparison as a pastor, in his pastoral role, that's one thing. If you say, as you seem to be, that he has no right to make the comparison at all because he's a pastor, that's something quite different. Why not leave aside the issue of his job entirely for the moment, and just focus on the comparison? It's an interesting discussion - and I can see how it might make some people angry. The fact that a particular value is shared with a bad person does not in itself make the value bad: SDAs share vegetarianism with Hitler, but that does not make vegetarianism bad. So (if I can venture to speak for Lazarus), the fact that the KKK holds any particular value does not automatically mean that it is bad for conservatives to hold it. It also does not mean that conservatives are the KKK, are like the KKK or anything like that. SDAs are not Hitler. What is interesting is a whole constellation of values and beliefs. You could quite easily do a similar comparison between, say, the beliefs of the Chinese Communist Party and the Democrats. Or the Communist Party and President Obama. It would be an interesting comparison. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 Originally Posted By: bonnie it would be interesting to hear more from Laz as to the KKK and conservative values as a pastor I am only speaking for myself here, but I think even pastors should have the right to come here and speak their mind without having the fact that they are a pastor thrown back at them at every opportunity. This should be a safe place for all to have freedom of conscience without need for labels. Just a clarification. Laz first made this post to Taylor. I left it alone. The next day he posted to me. I am assuming he wanted an answer as he posted the same thing twice. Maybe you need to post a new rule book that "No answer unless it is what the OP wants to hear. Or in this case what others want to hear. A pastor is always a pastor. It is not 8 to 5:00 PM I wouldn't think a SDA pastor that considers SDA conservative as following the KKK platform above being questioned. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 Originally Posted By: bonnie it would be interesting to hear more from Laz as to the KKK and conservative values as a pastor I am only speaking for myself here, but I think even pastors should have the right to come here and speak their mind without having the fact that they are a pastor thrown back at them at every opportunity. This should be a safe place for all to have freedom of conscience without need for labels. Given my background ... I have to say that I agree with you on that one. Being a pastor does not need to be thrown in ones face. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 Quote: Given my background ... I have to say that I agree with you on that one. Being a pastor does not need to be thrown in ones face. This is not something I even considered as throwing anything in anyone's face......it would be interesting to hear more from Laz as to the KKK and conservative values as a pastor Straight forward . How would a pastor,any pastor, be able to pastor a conservative church if he believe such values have much in common with the KKK? Or relate to conservative members in a church that considers itself as mainly liberal or opposed to the KKK? Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted April 18, 2009 Moderators Share Posted April 18, 2009 I tried. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 I tried. Maybe you did but I have no idea where. Nor do I have any idea how you could try to answer for Laz. I did not question him as a poster or a pastor till he made it known he wanted a response. Or I am assuming he did. Maybe he just wanted the opportunity to make his feelings known about conservative SDA's. If that is the case he should have said so. I made no remarks as to what I may have thought of him personally. Nothing was thrown in his face. I responded to what he addressed to me. I am still quite curious how a pastor of any congregation can view a portion of his congregation (if conservative) as vile as the KKK and still minister to them. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvin mccarty Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 Bonnie you and I have been hanging around the forums for a long time and I have never had a problem understanding what you are saying. Some just seem to have a problem with plain speaking. Too bad!......mel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted April 19, 2009 Moderators Share Posted April 19, 2009 Just posting to change the thread title back to its original form Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 Bonnie you and I have been hanging around the forums for a long time and I have never had a problem understanding what you are saying. Some just seem to have a problem with plain speaking. Too bad!......mel Thanks,I don't believe anything was misunderstood either. It should have been obvious that Laz wanted a response to his comparison,KKK and conservative SDA's. Where the misunderstanding came in is Laz or friends neglected to request only comments in agreement were to be posted. As for throwing it in his face for being a pastor that wasn't done either but does shift the focus. Still curious how a pastor ministers to a congregation that has a mix while believing the conservative share and have a lot in common with something as vile as the KKK. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 Just posting to change the thread title back to its original form Why change it?? If what you said originally was true and your honest belief, then you should not back up and remove. I didn't have a problem with it and you have not had for some time now. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted April 19, 2009 Moderators Share Posted April 19, 2009 I can't speak for Laz, but again, I did address the issue of the comparison clearly and in detail (in plain language) above. As far as I know he is *not* saying 'conservatives are the KKK' or 'conservatives are as bad as the KKK' or even 'conservatives are like the KKK'. He is saying 'there are many similarities between the policies of the conservatives and those of the KKK' and inviting a discussion of that. Why not discuss that, rather than get off on this tangent about his job, since that is the question being asked? Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted April 19, 2009 Moderators Share Posted April 19, 2009 I did not change the thread title to 'crazy woman', Redwood did, and I never said the phrase 'crazy woman'. I did try to post that I thought your *actions* in the discussion were crazy. I have since withdrawn and apologised for that post, and so I changed the title back because I thought it was rude to you to continue a thread entitled 'Crazy Woman', but if you'd prefer that by all means change it back. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 I did not change the thread title to 'crazy woman', Redwood did, and I never said the phrase 'crazy woman'. I did try to post that I thought your *actions* in the discussion were crazy. I have since withdrawn and apologised for that post, and so I changed the title back because I thought it was rude to you to continue a thread entitled 'Crazy Woman', but if you'd prefer that by all means change it back. There was no tangent. I responded to his deliberate post to me. Laz can speak for himself I would guess. What you or redwood do with the title is really unimportant from my standpoint Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted April 19, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted April 19, 2009 Wow! I just arrived home after having a great Sabbath, Liberals and conservatives worshiping together I might add. Bonnie, you don't know how wide of the mark you are. During the election some of our teens came to me and said "Pastor, you're a republican aren't you, you support McCain don't you" I laughed because I know the truth. I preach Jesus and only those who are close to me know what my politics are. I Have liberals and conservatives in my church. My call is to minister to people. People often accuse people of doing things they themselves would do. I wonder how you would treat the Liberals in your conservative church? Bonnie, I'm not sure where the attack on conservative SDA's comes in. Who mentioned SDA's. I didn't? Don't mistake conservative theology with conservative politics. That may be where your problem comes in. It may be that you assume that because I may have liberal political perspective that I also have a liberal theological perspective. Give me an example where I am liberal as far as the 28 are concerned? You said the KKK was not right wing. I reposed a list of KKK platforms in the hope that it would show that they are to the right of the spectrum. To infer that this was an attack on conservative SDA's is bizarre at best. I don't understand your train of thought. As far as the Pastor thing is concerned I'm often called upon to respond to issues as a Pastor. That's OK. Other times people use their expectations of a Pastor as a means to try to manipulate, belittle, elicit guilt etc. It's precisely what you are doing. You are saying " I don't like what you have said and I dislike it even more because you are a Pastor and a Pastor should know better". You are uncomfortable with posting that so you seek to invalidate what I'm saying and my position by saying "as a Pastor" etc. You may not even realize you are doing it and of course you may deny it but its plain for all to see. That's why I said "you little invalidation you" a few days ago. You didn't respond either because you didn't understand or you did understand. Quote: am still quite curious how a pastor of any congregation can view a portion of his congregation (if conservative) as vile as the KKK and still minister to them. I won't take the time to try to refute something I didn't suggest or even think. You're projecting you own conclusions about me onto me. It is not materialism that is the chief curse of the world, as pastors teach, but idealism. Men get into trouble by taking their visions and hallucinations too seriously. H. L. Mencken Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted April 19, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted April 19, 2009 OK I didn't change the thread title, who did? Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted April 19, 2009 Moderators Share Posted April 19, 2009 Laz, you'll have to read this whole thread to really get what's been going on. Have fun with that. You might want to switch your preferences to 'threaded' rather than 'inline' view as well, temporarily, since it might make more sense that way. Hope I stayed off your toes in those places where it seemed as though I might be speaking for you. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted April 19, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted April 19, 2009 Please can everyone refer to me a Pastor Lazarus from now on. I won't respond to posts that refer to me as Laz, Lazoo, Liz, L, Lazzy, Big Laz, Ole Laz, Lazaa mate(for the Aussies) Pastor, Ps, Pr, Prs or any such combination, abbreviation, derivation or conjugation. Thank You. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted April 19, 2009 Moderators Share Posted April 19, 2009 /salutes Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 Yes. Pastor O'Malley. If we really must be that formal. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted April 19, 2009 Moderators Share Posted April 19, 2009 And I'll go by 'Dr Bravus the Raving Pinko', please. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted April 19, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted April 19, 2009 Yes. Pastor Murphy. If we really must be that formal. oh cheers mate!!! let me post my conference Presdient's cell number too!!!!! Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 Quote: Bonnie, you don't know how wide of the mark you are. During the election some of our teens came to me and said "Pastor, you're a republican aren't you, you support McCain don't you" I laughed because I know the truth. I preach Jesus and only those who are close to me know what my politics are. I Have liberals and conservatives in my church. My call is to minister to people. I believe that is the role of pastor. My question remains the same. How do you minister to those that you see as having the same platform of KKK Quote: People often accuse people of doing things they themselves would do. I wonder how you would treat the Liberals in your conservative church? I am the last original member in our church.I have never held membership in another church. Get along very well with the exception of two I steer clear oof. We have had both liberal and conservative members as I am sure most do. Same goes for pastors. Some were so liberal they would not be recognised as SDA. If they are not convicted of the adventist message,they should not be a SDA pastor. The last one, a very good friend lost his credentials as a result. He rightfully lost his credentials but the way it was handled had everyone pretty steamed and the conservatives were among his strongest supporters. We have about 75 members and growing at this time. We have a variety of races and all get along well. Probably the reason is that they do not make the conservatives feel they are on the same ground as KKK. The flip side of that is the conservatives do not get in their face and tell them what hopeless sinners they are. As for close friends within the church it would be about 50-50. Never thought to tally them according to which side I view them. There is a liberal I now go out of my way to avoid. He is so busy trying to ferret out the conservatives it is easier to avoid. There is a conservative I do the same with. She likes to run the food police unit and questions what is coming in for potluck. Most that try to deal with her are sorry they did. That is a pretty good cross section of how I deal with both. Quote: Bonnie, I'm not sure where the attack on conservative SDA's comes in. Who mentioned SDA's. I didn't? Don't mistake conservative theology with conservative politics. That may be where your problem comes in. It may be that you assume that because I may have liberal political perspective that I also have a liberal theological perspective. If you did not intentionally draw a comparison to conservative SDA's and KKK then I apologize. It did appear to me as what you meant Quote: Give me an example where I am liberal as far as the 28 are concerned? I really don't care if you are liberal where the 28 are concerned. Quote: You said the KKK was not right wing. I reposed a list of KKK platforms in the hope that it would show that they are to the right of the spectrum. To infer that this was an attack on conservative SDA's is bizarre at best. I don't understand your train of thought. Perhaps someday you will explain then exactly as you meant. I don't consider the KKK to the right of anything or the left for that matter. They are vicious,cruel and bigoted Quote: As far as the Pastor thing is concerned I'm often called upon to respond to issues as a Pastor. That's OK. Other times people use their expectations of a Pastor as a means to try to manipulate, belittle, elicit guilt etc. It's precisely what you are doing. No it is not. I responded to you after you addressed the post to me. If that is not the way you meant it I have apologized for that. The responding as a pastor to issues is what I was getting at had you meant it as I took it to mean Quote: You are saying " I don't like what you have said and I dislike it even more because you are a Pastor and a Pastor should know better". You are uncomfortable with posting that so you seek to invalidate what I'm saying and my position by saying "as a Pastor" etc. You may not even realize you are doing it and of course you may deny it but its plain for all to see. That's why I said "you little invalidation you" a few days ago. You didn't respond either because you didn't understand or you did understand. The reason the pastor issue came into this was,first what you posted and how as a pastor if that is how you felt could you minister to those that were conservative SDA. You may believe what you wish. I didn't respond as to what you said as I saw no reason to. I understood perfectly what you were saying. Quote: I won't take the time to try to refute something I didn't suggest or even think. You're projecting you own conclusions about me onto me. There is no reason for you to take the time to do that. I accept your word for it. It appeared to me that is where you were coming from Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted April 19, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted April 19, 2009 I stayed off your toes in those places where it seemed as though I might be speaking for you. It's good to have an Aaron in the congregation. You did good. I have no complaints. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Jeannieb43 Posted April 19, 2009 Moderators Share Posted April 19, 2009 Laz, I'd like to attend your church sometime. It sounds like you have a varied membership as far as politics and theology are concerned, but that you minister to all of them successfully. That type of pastor is all too rare. Quote Jeannie<br /><br /><br />...Change is inevitable; growth is optional.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 Laz, I'd like to attend your church sometime. It sounds like you have a varied membership as far as politics and theology are concerned, but that you minister to all of them successfully. That type of pastor is all too rare. I was going to invite him to come on over to our church ... but we only invite pastors who are Sarah Palin supporters to our pulpit. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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