carolaa Posted April 27, 2009 Share Posted April 27, 2009 What I'm saying is that the people who made the decisions about torture (GW and his admin) are not the people who put their lives on the line for you. That's all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted April 27, 2009 Share Posted April 27, 2009 Early on in the War on Terror, the CIA was allowed to torture without direct approval from the President. The controversy started with the granting approval to the military to torture. That has since been reversed. The military is no longer allowed to torture. The CIA is still allowed to do it. I am referring to the psychological torture that we have been discussing in this thread. Physical torture like electrocution, breaking bones, pulling off finger nails, etc. is not allowed nor do I think we have been doing such things. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Posted April 27, 2009 Share Posted April 27, 2009 [quote Quote: Our enemies atrocious acts, which must be punished, never justifies us using torture. I firmly stand on the fact that we must be different. We must walk the higher road. We must not lay down and "take their abuse" but neither must we become the abusers. No, I do not think there is wide-spread abuse in our military but ANY abuse that happened with our military to anyone friend of foe, should not be tolerated. It is very simple. What the enemy does to does to us does not justify us torturing them. It does demand punishment and somehow making sure they do not do it again, to the best of our ability, but no amount of torture or punishment will ever "pay" them back for what they have done, the crime is too great. Just ask the person who has had a daughter raped and murdered by some terrible criminal. It seems we have to different topics here. One,prevention of another 9/11 or having our citizens abused and or beheaded ,or paying back and getting even. I don't think that has been part of this converstaion. We cannot punish them,if they do not confess we must let them go. Anything other than that will be defined as torture. We are not talking after the fact but before trying to prevent Quote: Later those parents attend the electric chair killing of the murderer...expecting to feel finally at peace as "justice has been served.". What they feel is "relief that he can't do it again to someone else", but other than that the anger, loss, bitterness is still there and somehow there is no "relief". You can't make others pay enough for such sins. Yes we need to keep society as safe as possible but not through torture of our enemies. We are to "love our enemies and pray for them". We are not speaking of retribution or justice being served tho are we? Nor are we asking that others pay enough. Placing it on the level of payback is not accurate or even difscussing the topic at hand. No one is stopping you from loving your enemies but I believe there are a lot of people out there hoping you love them and theirs even half as much Quote: Now that doesn't mean we "condone" what they do. It doesn't mean there isn't something called "tough love which lets them face the consequences of their decisions" but it means they are treated as humans for whom Christ died and not like some non-human. God says "Vengance is mine", we can leave the "final punishment" which will "completely take care of the problem" in God's hands. I think that some members of CA should sign on to keep our country safe and give tough love. Keeping them imprisoned is not acceptable here. Nor is obtaining information that might protect someone else unless of course when we ask nicely they feel obligated to answer honestly. Somehow I don't think it works that way You still are on a totally different subject with this....... God says "Vengance is mine", we can leave the "final punishment" which will "completely take care of the problem" in God's hands. No one has advocated vengence have they? Those that are so bent on the "end doesn't justify the means" will of course put that into their daily life. Eliminates the possibility of calling 911 if you are being attacked. If your family member was in danger,do not call 911. Use tough love. By calling 911 you are giving the permission for a swat team to kill another human being. Let God take care of the problem calling for help. We had a case in MN where a woman being attacked by her estranged husband. Somehow she was able to call 911. When they arrived she had a knife held against her throat,he had already drawn blood. She was pleading for her life. A swat team had been dispatched and he was shot and killed. Guess who was blamed for the death of her suddenly dearly beloved. She was a african amercian and sued the swat team. They could have talked him down,they shot him she was sure because he was african american. The point is if you expect that it should all be left to God then that is your opinion. Do not ever call for helpif you or yours are ever in that position. You know very well someone could die and by doing so you are pulling the trigger as well It is truely amazing to me that you can think I would mean to not call 911. I am simply against torture that is it. I am simply against thinking that it might be ok since what they did was so terrible. I keep hearing references to crimes, to 9/11 to dragging deaths and be-headings. I think that sometimes capital punishment may be necessary, war may be necessary but I just think that death is more merciful than torturing someone so they wish they could die. I have called 911 on situations, just did so this weekend, as I wittnessed in a public place a man put his hands around a woman's throat while screaming obsenities at her. He was so angry he could have klled her so ya we called 9/11 and the cops came and arrested him. I think he needs to get help, to be put in the slammer if necessary but I don't think he needs to be water boarded, or beaten, or choked or whatever. Please don't make me into something I am not. I am not that illogical as to think that 911 shouldn't be called, or that I am saying that we should not punish evil doers, or that war is never necessary. Anyone who knows me in real life would just laugh if they knew I was being accused of that. However, I do think we are called to a higher road than the one our enemies take no matter how "bad" they are. I am not looking for loop holes I am just sharing my opinions, which is what I think we all do on CA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted April 27, 2009 Share Posted April 27, 2009 You have made several references in your post to revenge,payback etc. Go back over your previous post and see how often you made the reference to revenge or paybac. Nothing was ever said about that at all. Revenge and payback usually requires an act to be committed. No one has even suggested that revenge would be an acceptable reason for water boarding I don't believe the go ahead for water boarding was given lightly or just for sport. It is to obtain information,not a payback. Information that may be vital What I meant by do not call 911 if you are opposed to the call ending in a show of force and guns. Very possible someone will end u dead. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Posted April 27, 2009 Share Posted April 27, 2009 To me it is amazing that anyone could condone waterboarding..wow. I wouldn't do that to anyone no matter their crime, but I would make sure they could never hurt anyone else....and if that meant capital punishment I would be glad I wasn't on the jury but I would admitt that it could be necessary. I am all for "removing people from the possibility of further harming others" and for "punishment" but no "punishment" will ever atone for their henious crimes. It simply is a way to keep society safer. I just think that torture, no matter how useful, is wrong. That is my opinion. Sorry some here don't like it. And actually I am a registered Republican, but I do vote conscious To me it is simple. If our men were being water-boarded and that country (say Iran or N. Korea etc..) saw us as much of the "enemy" as we might see them...they would justify the water boarding, stress positions, being naked for hours, beatings, etc on our service men. They would say they were protecting their regime and had every right to use these methods to obtain information from our men. However, I dare say we would have a fit about it...becuase we know we do not deserve that kind of treatment. I just maintain we can't do to them what we are not willing to take from them. I.E. we can't condone what we condem. I give up. Guess I can't make myself clear on the subject. Oh well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planey Posted April 27, 2009 Share Posted April 27, 2009 I give up. Guess I can't make myself clear on the subject. Oh well. ( Taylor, in my opinion your meaning would be crystal clear to any normal, rational person. Graeme Quote Graeme____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Posted April 27, 2009 Share Posted April 27, 2009 Well I think Bonnie is normal, I just don't think she actually hears what people are trying to say sometimes, for some reason. (And no I am not going to go over my posts point by point again.) But I am glad you think my posting is clear. I don't think I could make it any clearer, and frankly I am weary of trying to explain it over and over again. Strange how I usually don't have any problem making myself understood in any other setting, except an occasional person here. Must be partly the "internet factor". Sometimes the only solution, unfortunately, is to quitt the discussion because no amount of explaining is going to make it clear. Oh well....asi es la vida. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted April 27, 2009 Share Posted April 27, 2009 Originally Posted By: Taylor I give up. Guess I can't make myself clear on the subject. Oh well. ( Taylor, in my opinion your meaning would be crystal clear to any normal, rational person. Graeme Taylor was crystal clear. She was talking about revenge and payback. That had not been said or suggested it ws a good idea Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted April 27, 2009 Share Posted April 27, 2009 Well I think Bonnie is normal, I just don't think she actually hears what people are trying to say sometimes, for some reason. (And no I am not going to go over my posts point by point again.) But I am glad you think my posting is clear. I don't think I could make it any clearer, and frankly I am weary of trying to explain it over and over again. Strange how I usually don't have any problem making myself understood in any other setting, except an occasional person here. Must be partly the "internet factor". Sometimes the only solution, unfortunately, is to quitt the discussion because no amount of explaining is going to make it clear. Oh well....asi es la vida. You are crystal clear. You are talking about payback and revenge. Payback and revenge have nothing to do with preventing with information another 9/11 attack. Many have this armchair job of running the military our Cia Operatives. If waterboarding were the way to prevent an impending attack or provide information to reach a captive and you claim you would say no,that is your position. A position on revenge was never taken by anyone else. If waterboarding would save my son or someone else's I would not hesitate Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Posted April 27, 2009 Share Posted April 27, 2009 Now that is funny! Yes it was mentioned but it wasn't the main point at all. Your point has come accross as being (notice I don't say it is your point...becuase only you know what you are trying to say.) that becuase they have done such terrible things then in order to protect and "get information" it is ok to do water boarding or whatever. I completely disagree it is ever appropriate to torture no matter 1. Their crime 2. The possible benefit to us. 3. Regardless if it is way less "bad" than what they did to us. The end does not justify the means....OR if it does...then we can NEVER complain when torture is used on our soldiers. BUT there IS room for justice, for our judicial system to be put in place, for capital punishment in extreme cases, for war at times. The sad thing is that since we are not in a theocracy...we can make serious mistakes and condem the innocent but unfortunately such is life. But we do not have to torture. THAT is my point. (Capitalization for emphasis only, not for shouting. I never shout. Just thought I would clarify that.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Posted April 27, 2009 Share Posted April 27, 2009 Originally Posted By: Taylor Well I think Bonnie is normal, I just don't think she actually hears what people are trying to say sometimes, for some reason. (And no I am not going to go over my posts point by point again.) But I am glad you think my posting is clear. I don't think I could make it any clearer, and frankly I am weary of trying to explain it over and over again. Strange how I usually don't have any problem making myself understood in any other setting, except an occasional person here. Must be partly the "internet factor". Sometimes the only solution, unfortunately, is to quitt the discussion because no amount of explaining is going to make it clear. Oh well....asi es la vida. You are crystal clear. You are talking about payback and revenge. Payback and revenge have nothing to do with preventing with information another 9/11 attack. Many have this armchair job of running the military our Cia Operatives. If waterboarding were the way to prevent an impending attack or provide information to reach a captive and you claim you would say no,that is your position. A position on revenge was never taken by anyone else. If waterboarding would save my son or someone else's I would not hesitate Interesting how you can know the intent behind my post. I would never condone torture, but I would protect my family as best as I could, and yes that may mean war etc. I can't condone something I wouldn't want used on our own military Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Posted April 27, 2009 Share Posted April 27, 2009 But since I appear to be making Bonnie upset and no matter what I say...I do not need to keep repeating myself. (Bonnie, are you the same person that posted so much on the 3ABN situation? Seems as if you might be. Just curious. I just see you've been a member for a long time but I hadn't seen you here for a long time till recently.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Posted April 27, 2009 Share Posted April 27, 2009 If you would read what I posted I said "tough love lets people face the consequences for what they have done", but I don't believe that includes torture. It may, in extreme cases, include death but not torture. However, I am not into "armchair politics" or being namby pamby and "taking it" from them. We do have a right to defend ourselves but I do not believe that means torture. But I can have my opinion or conviction and you can have yours, Bonnie, and that doens't make I hate you, because I don't, and I hope you don't dislike me either. We live in a free country where people can have their opinions and convictions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted April 27, 2009 Share Posted April 27, 2009 Originally Posted By: bonnie You are crystal clear. You are talking about payback and revenge. Payback and revenge have nothing to do with preventing with information another 9/11 attack. Many have this armchair job of running the military our Cia Operatives. If waterboarding were the way to prevent an impending attack or provide information to reach a captive and you claim you would say no,that is your position. A position on revenge was never taken by anyone else. If waterboarding would save my son or someone else's I would not hesitate [/quote'] Interesting how you can know the intent behind my post. I would never condone torture, but I would protect my family as best as I could, and yes that may mean war etc. I can't condone something I wouldn't want used on our own military Taylor, You are the one that brought in payback and revenge. No getting around if the actions were for those reasons it is wrong and can never be condoned or excused We also have very little of the story and this administration has proved it's willingness to profess ignorance ,outrage and shock at a issue being brought out to the american people. Most of us do not have the slightest idea of what our operatives,military etc are faced with. I don't think any that loose a family member in one of these hideous ways will be comforted by holding accountable after the fact. As enough has been released now to give an incentive to our enemies,knowing our military is helpless to do anything,I hope the rest comes out.Our president had just fininshed a world tour groveling and apologizing for the US. We have now told the captives,never fear,refuse to give important information and the US Military is helpless. We cannot keep them confined at Gitmo. Wasn't that long ago we released one of the "innocents" and he blew up a bunch of people as a suicide bomber. So tell me what we do with them It is before the fact that I was referring to and after the fact holding accountable seems to be what you are. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Posted April 27, 2009 Share Posted April 27, 2009 There are no easy answers. I am glad I am not the president nor in the military. However, I still say torture is out. We need to look for solutions, and frankly there are no fool proof solutions till Jesus comes back.(The ultimate solution is Jesus changing their hearts, but most will not accept him but we can pray and work actively with everyone that surrounds us.) But we do not need to stoop to the level of our enemies in the torture department, but yes, war may be completely necessary as well as long imprisonments or rehabilitation or capital punishment, sad but true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted April 27, 2009 Share Posted April 27, 2009 If you would read what I posted I said "tough love lets people face the consequences for what they have done", but I don't believe that includes torture. It may, in extreme cases, include death but not torture. However, I am not into "armchair politics" or being namby pamby and "taking it" from them. We do have a right to defend ourselves but I do not believe that means torture. But I can have my opinion or conviction and you can have yours, Bonnie, and that doens't make I hate you, because I don't, and I hope you don't dislike me either. We live in a free country where people can have their opinions and convictions. I did read,I have read this. Tough love is again,after the fact. But we are unable to proceed there as far as I can see. If extreme painful measures are used, cutting off body parts,or pulling fingernails off is something that never should be done. If our operatives go thru this procedure to be able to withstand that and more,I have no problem with it being used if there is credible evidence to a impending attack or someone dying. After accidently hearing that young man being beheaded I would not think twice if it could prevent another. Personally,I think I would dress them in lacy woman's underwear and stick a pork hot dog in their mouth until they talked. Sometimes defendings one self may have to be proactive instead of reactive. Nor did I believe there was any hatred involved between us. I am speaking before the fact,you seem to be speaking after the fact. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 Wasn't that long ago we released one of the "innocents" and he blew up a bunch of people as a suicide bomber.So tell me what we do with them I wonder what might have happened if we had treated this prisoner more humanely. Perhaps we would not have incited such hatred toward us that he went straight out and committed violence against us. Do you really think you would not have done the same thing as he did, were you in his shoes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 Originally Posted By: bonnie Wasn't that long ago we released one of the "innocents" and he blew up a bunch of people as a suicide bomber.So tell me what we do with them I wonder what might have happened if we had treated this prisoner more humanely. Perhaps we would not have incited such hatred toward us that he went straight out and committed violence against us. Do you really think you would not have done the same thing as he did, were you in his shoes? Must have got his directions screwed up. He didn't bomb any of ours. He went straight out and committed violence against others. No, would not become a suicide bomber. Many people have been falsely accused and imprisoned,they do not turn themselves into a bomb. Maybe,just maybe there was a good reason he was confined Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 My point is that our actions (torture being only one of them) have caused the number of al-Quaeda recruits to increase. I don't believe anything is gained by torture that cannot be gained by legitimate, traditional, proven interrogation techniques. It's easy to respond to beheadings and other cruelties with torture, but that response is coming from emotion (fear or revenge), not reasoning. Torture has never proven to be an effective method of getting reliable, accurate information. On the other hand, torture has resulted in turning people against us, and I believe it has made our troops and our country less safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 My point is that our actions (torture being only one of them) have caused the number of al-Quaeda recruits to increase. I don't believe anything is gained by torture that cannot be gained by legitimate, traditional, proven interrogation techniques. It's easy to respond to beheadings and other cruelties with torture, but that response is coming from emotion (fear or revenge), not reasoning. Torture has never proven to be an effective method of getting reliable, accurate information. On the other hand, torture has resulted in turning people against us, and I believe it has made our troops and our country less safe. What was it that caused 9/11. No water boarding at that time as I remember. al-Quaeda will always hate us. It will never be different unless the US turns radical Islam. What you believe is torture I do not. Our operatives go thru that routinely in training. Pleasant,I doubt it,but unpleasant and scary is not torture. You do not know as I don't what was gained. I still believe you would make a different decision if a family member was about to be beheaded and there was a good chance water boarding could give you the means to save them. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted May 1, 2009 Members Share Posted May 1, 2009 I agree with much that you have stated. I believe one of the reason's we have all these terrorist organizations, is the way we have treated Muslim and Arab countries, for all these years. I'd say the same for communism, etc. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that sometimes it wasn't justified. We backed the Shah of Iran over others, even though he was killing his people left and right, until the Aotolah got back into power, than we backed Iraq against Iran, and all for our own interests. Look at the middle east problems. First we helped the Saudis, Iranians, Iraqis, etc. with all the oil we could get, than they started shoving us out of there when they realized the kind of money they could make and didn't need us. So now we try to tiptoe between the oil producers and Israel. Not really committing fully to either. We back Israel because of them being a democracy, and of course all the Jews, besides Israel being out number a million to one. And of course we also back the Arabs because of the oil we need so badly, so we tiptoe around the terrorist problem, otherwise they might stop giving or allowing us to purchase oil. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Quote: I agree with much that you have stated. I believe one of the reason's we have all these terrorist organizations, is the way we have treated Muslim and Arab countries, for all these years. I'd say the same for communism, etc. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that sometimes it wasn't justified. I don't think it is accurate to blame the US for communism in the slightest. Nor did the US cause terrorism to flourish. They are quick to take advantage of those trying to mollify them and be nice. There is not one here that can be nice enough to be considered worthy,unless you convert to Islam,the most radical. They hated us long before either Bush,and they will hate us till the end. Seeing the US as corrupt and of course that is only going to get worse. A little beheading is good for effect. The profanity,the porn and corruption is what they see and claim to be fighting against. Hogwash,any that will cut off the head of another hasn't got to much to rave about. They hate us and always will for what they see as US decadence. Quote: We backed the Shah of Iran over others, even though he was killing his people left and right, until the Aotolah got back into power, than we backed Iraq against Iran, and all for our own interests. Look at the middle east problems. First we helped the Saudis, Iranians, Iraqis, etc. with all the oil we could get, than they started shoving us out of there when they realized the kind of money they could make and didn't need us. Most countries back "allies" that have a common interest at the time. Always right?? Of course not If I remember my bible, the middle east problem was created by two brothers. A family fight. That is unlikely to be settled till Christ comes again. Quote: So now we try to tiptoe between the oil producers and Israel. Not really committing fully to either. We back Israel because of them being a democracy, and of course all the Jews, besides Israel being out number a million to one. And of course we also back the Arabs because of the oil we need so badly, so we tiptoe around the terrorist problem, otherwise they might stop giving or allowing us to purchase oil. I am not so sure we will continue to back Israel. Our own democracy is slowly eroding,why would we worry about theirs? We have oil but are not allowed to use it. Isn't Norway?? in the gulf of Mexico drilling now? Norway securing drilling rights http://www.norwaypost.no/content/view/21790/1/ As to the torture issue,I have family that is in the Marines. They were sure they were being tortured in basic. I wouldn't be surprised to see putting a terrorist thru that listed as torture. Waterboarding is used as a training tool for our operatives. It is not done for amusement. Again,if you had a family member scheduled for beheading,or to be turned into a human torch in the twin towers and there was a chance that the means to stop this could be obtained thru waterboarding,you would do what?? It is always good for debate,good versus bad.When it is your innocent loved one would you be debating the issue. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 It is usually true that emotions do not help a person to think clearly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 It is usually true that emotions do not help a person to think clearly. You are right. That is why the intense training our operatives undergo. So that the intent remains to gain information, not to get even for past transgressions. As family members would not be in the know or responsible for ordering such emotions won't play a part. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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