US News....Live like an SDA

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

No one is saying it's a sin to eat meat!!!

Enter Ellen G. White ... who is turning over in her grave.

Yes. According to Ellen White ... eating meat IS a sin.

Would you kindly give the reference where EGW said it is a sin to eat meat?

Thanks.

[Planey]

There is no doubt in anyone's mind that meat will not be served or consumed in Heaven. Therefore, at some point, anyone entering the Kingdom will have gotten to the point that meat-eating is not desired anymore.

This is not good logic (apart from not good theology.)

There will be a lot of persons in heaven who ate meat their whole lives, right up until their death. If they are there, why should it be any different for us now?

Or are you saying there is a whole 'nother standard for us living in the last days? Do we need to get ourselves to some level of perfection right now so that we can just step straight into heaven as we are?

Weird concept.

Graeme

[Woody]

Quote:

Or are you saying there is a whole 'nother standard for us living in the last days? Do we need to get ourselves to some level of perfection right now so that we can just step straight into heaven as we are?

Weird concept.

Weird ... yes.

And BTW ... we have been living in the last days for thousands and thousands of years. Nothin' new here.

[Robert]

By the same reasoning then, since no one can live up to God's agape love, therefore I shouldn't give up meat, alcohol, drugs, fornication, cheating, murder, gossip, or whatever?

Yeah, but do it for the right motive....

But wait, Gerry, I've found a contradiction in your quote above. Yesterday you said, "No one is saying it's a sin to eat meat!!!" Then why did you include this [meat] in the list of sins above?

[phkrause]

Not sure that that is what he meant Planey. I guess I'll let him explain it. But I do believe that at that period of earth's history just before Jesus comes, after the HS is removed from the earth for a short time, and we are hiding from those that want to do us harm, not sure that eating meat will be on our minds. Not because we want to give it up, but because we wont have time to think about what we're going to have for supper. And doesn't the Bible also say something about the 144,000 (symbolic number of course and not a literal number) the last ones left that they will be perfect to a certain point! I'll have to look that up, just thinking off the top of my head here, to make sure that that is correct.

pk

[Robert]

And doesn't the Bible also say something about the 144,000 (symbolic number of course and not a literal number) the last ones left that they will be perfect to a certain point!

It might be possible for the 144,000 to come to the point of sinless living, but the fact is they'll still have sinful flesh and therefore they are imperfect.

"When human beings receive holy flesh [glorified bodies], they will not remain on the earth, but will be taken to heaven. While sin is forgiven in this life, its results are not now wholly removed. It is at His coming that Christ is to "change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body" (Phil. 3:21). . . .2SM 33

We not only stand condemned, under law, for our past and present sins, but because we share Adam's fallen life. Again, EGW:

"Adam sinned, and the children of Adam share his guilt [curse or condemnation] and its consequences [death, disease, etc]; but Jesus bore the guilt of Adam, and all the children of Adam that will flee to Christ, the second Adam, may escape the penalty of transgression." FW 88

[Planey]

they will be perfect to a certain point!

Well pk, if that's the case I may as well give up now!

Actually on a serious note I have been considering that very act for a while now. Doesn't seem to be a lot of point, really.

Just for example, there are quite a number of members here on CA, ones that seem to be convinced that they will be citizens of the New Earth, that I would not want to spend five minutes in close proximity to, let alone eternity. And remember that spending eternity in the same universe means I will see them an infinite number of times, for an infinite time period. And also by the reverse token I can guarantee they would be equally unlikely to want to spend even a nanosecond with me (for good reasons)

Not much point trying to get to a place where you don't fit in, eh!

Graeme

[Robert]

No worries...they won't take their natures to heaven with them.

Rob

[Planey]

No worries...they won't take their natures to heaven with them.

Then will they really be 'them'?

If I don't take my nature with me, and I get a new body (and that had better be a 'given'), then what makes me 'me'?

It appears that we will be completely different people! Maybe the only bit that remains the same will be our names. Will be like the first day at school where we all wear name tags so we know who everybody is. Including ourselves, we will need the odd peep at our own name tags to remember who we are for the first little while...

I really struggle with the idea of a 'new nature'.

Graeme

[Robert]

Then will they really be 'them'?

[Planey]

"In heaven none will think of self

Well, with different bodies and different persons ("natures") inside them, there will be no "self" left to think about!

Graeme

PS Rob, it's midnight here so I am off for some shut-eye, Catch you l8ter.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

By the same reasoning then, since no one can live up to God's agape love, therefore I shouldn't give up meat, alcohol, drugs, fornication, cheating, murder, gossip, or whatever?

Yeah, but do it for the right motive....

But wait, Gerry, I've found a contradiction in your quote above. Yesterday you said, "No one is saying it's a sin to eat meat!!!" Then why did you include this [meat] in the list of sins above?

[color:blue] Eating meat may not be a sin, but it is also unhealthy. Neither is taking a cough syrup with alcohol in it, and not healthy to keep on taking it. Illicit drugs, fornication, cheating, murder, gossip, or whatever it may be that's not good, per you reasoning, i.e. that since we cannot live up to God's agape love, we shouldn't give up any detrimental habits/foods/etc., whether they are accounted as sinful or not?

[Robert]

Eating meat may not be a sin, but it is also unhealthy.

But you said that it wasn't a sin, now you are saying "may not be a sin", which leaves doubt. Which is it?

Also, remember Christ ate meat....

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

"In heaven none will think of self

Well, with different bodies and different persons ("natures") inside them, there will be no "self" left to think about!

Graeme

PS Rob, it's midnight here so I am off for some shut-eye, Catch you l8ter.

No, you (as a believer) have two natures. One you received from father Adam by birth. The other by "the new birth". This is the divine nature that comes by the Holy Spirit. Paul talks about this in Gal 5:17

"For the sinful nature [what you inherited by birth] desires what is contrary to the Spirit [the divine nature], and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature."

Now, if when you are translated you lose your sin nature and receive a body that is immortal and free from the ravages of sin, you'll be the same person. What you gain is a glorified life that is immortal and you'll also be free from "indwelling sin".

You are the same minus the junk. So yes, you'll act completely different, but hopefully you'll experience some of that change here through sanctification.

Rob

[Robert]

Also, remember Christ ate meat....

So the issue is who is preparing your meat and how are they handling it. That's the scary part....And that's the argument the vegetarian should use. In a nutshell greed is making meat unsafe....

[phkrause]

Here's what I was talking about Rob, Revelation 14:1-5 "Then I looked, and lo, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him the a hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; the voice I heard was like the sound of harpers playing on their harps, and they sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had not defiled themselves with women, for they are chaste; it is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes; these have been redeemed from mankind as first fruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are spotless." Like I mentioned in a sense they are perfect. Obviously Rob no one is perfect of themselves, but perfect in Jesus Christ.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Eating meat may not be a sin, but it is also unhealthy.

But you said that it wasn't a sin, now you are saying "may not be a sin", which leaves doubt. Which is it?

Also, remember Christ ate meat....

Good job of derailing the question:

Since we do not measure up to God's love, does that mean we shouldn't stop doing/eating things unhealthy or stop doing something sinful?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

But you said that it wasn't a sin, now you are saying "may not be a sin", which leaves doubt. Which is it?

Also, remember Christ ate meat.... [/quote']

Good job of derailing the question:

Since we do not measure up to God's love, does that mean we shouldn't stop doing/eating things unhealthy or stop doing something sinful?

Of course not....Now, is eating meat sin?

[Taylor]

It can't be a sin or Jesus wouldn't have eaten it but that doesn't mean it is the healthiest solution and since our bodies are the temple of the H.S. we should eat as healthfully as we possibly can, given the times and circumstances in which we live.

We just need to strive for the best, not settle for the "good". God gave us "meat" to eat after the flood but it wasn't his original plan.

However, I can't believe this discussion has gone on like this for so long on this topic. I am not aiming that comment at anyone but how is it legalism to want to be healthy or "sinning" if someone is not a vegetarian? I gues I just don't get what there is to bring about so much discussion.

I just thought it was a great piece of good news...that we are so thankful that as SDA's we have known about healthier living and now the world is recognizing those benefits. I say PTL..I hope people do live longer healthier lives.

[Woody]

Quote:

Let not any of our ministers set an evil example in the eating of flesh meat. Let them and their families live up to the light of health reform. Let not our ministers animalize their own nature and the nature of their children. Children whose desires have not been restrained, are tempted not only to indulge in the common habits of intemperance, but to give loose rein to their lower passions, and to disregard purity and virtue. These are led on by Satan not only to corrupt their own bodies, but to whisper their evil communications to others. If parents are blinded by sin, they will often fail of discerning these things. {CD 399.3}

It is just as much sin to violate the laws of our being as to break one of the ten commandments, for we cannot do either without breaking God’s law. We cannot love the Lord with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength while we are loving our appetites, our tastes, a great deal better than we love the Lord. We are daily lessening our strength to glorify God, when He requires all our strength, all our mind. By our wrong habits we are lessening our hold on life, and yet professing to be Christ’s followers, preparing for the finishing touch of immortality. Counsel on Diets and Foods, page 44

[Gerr]

It's not a sin to eat clean meat.

Now please answer my question.

[Taylor]

Quote:

Let not any of our ministers set an evil example in the eating of flesh meat. Let them and their families live up to the light of health reform. Let not our ministers animalize their own nature and the nature of their children. Children whose desires have not been restrained, are tempted not only to indulge in the common habits of intemperance, but to give loose rein to their lower passions, and to disregard purity and virtue. These are led on by Satan not only to corrupt their own bodies, but to whisper their evil communications to others. If parents are blinded by sin, they will often fail of discerning these things. {CD 399.3}

It is just as much sin to violate the laws of our being as to break one of the ten commandments, for we cannot do either without breaking God’s law. We cannot love the Lord with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength while we are loving our appetites, our tastes, a great deal better than we love the Lord. We are daily lessening our strength to glorify God, when He requires all our strength, all our mind. By our wrong habits we are lessening our hold on life, and yet professing to be Christ’s followers, preparing for the finishing touch of immortality. Counsel on Diets and Foods, page 44

I guess I don't have a problem with those quotes. They are not saying that you will be lost for eating meat. They are just stating that anything, we indulge in, that takes a priority over God becomes a sin. It has been proven that kids who have no self controll while small in the matter of "eating" usually don't demonstrate it later in life. I know that is a heavy statement but I saw a study once done on kids who were put in a room alone with some type of sweet and were told to wait till the adult returned to eat it. The study then followed these kids for many years and they found that those who were able to wait had a much higher success in school, careers, and even marriage. It wasn't about the sweet it was about self-controll.

It has also been shown that if a person gets off red meats that usually that helps with stress or anger issues. So yes, there is a direct correlation between diet and spirituality but it isn't because of the "food" nearly as much as "what has your priority in life". It also has to do with making it a priority to remove anything that might "cloud our minds" or "make us less healthy" so we can't be as effective in the Lord's work. If you look at the times that EGW was living in...people were very sickly by comparison to now. They had all kinds of bizarre health problems. I have seen some recipes from those days and the incrediby high percentage of lard in the cooking was, in my opinion, from a oil standpoint...just plain gross. (I have had food like that..a few times on airplanes etc...which is just swimming in oil. It isn't a sin to eat the oil..it is just disgusting and not good for the arteries.).

God just wants his children to put him first, to maximize every tool and capability he has given them for His work so as many people as possible can be reached with His love.

Just my 2 cents.

[BobRyan]

8. Live like a Seventh Day Adventist. Americans who define themselves as Seventh Day Adventists have an average life expectancy of 89, about a decade longer than the average American. One of the basic tenets of the religion is that it's important to cherish the body that's on loan from God, which means no smoking, alcohol abuse, or overindulging in sweets. Followers typically stick to a vegetarian diet based on fruits, vegetables, beans, and nuts, and get plenty of exercise. They're also very focused on family and community.

I am typically very up front with non-SDAs telling them that we do not get any of our 28 doctrinal statements from Ellen White. They all are established "sola scriptura".

However when it comes to things like the specific health details listed above - I have to say - this DOES come directly from Ellen White.

So also our formal organization of a religious liberty arm of the church, Education, medical ministry, publishing work etc.

Also "the details" we have on things like the "mark of the beast" that goes BEYOND simply noticing that it is a contrast between those who actually "believe and KEEP" the Ten commandments and those who set aside at least one of them. Between those who "Worship him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and all that are in them -- IN SEVEN DAYS" and those who ignore it. She provides the "details" about "NSL" being a sign to leave the cities. The "details" about events in society and natural disasters leading to demand for NSL. And a number of other end time "details" only available if you have a prophet to speak to them. Including the "detail" above about not eating meat.

in Christ,

Bob

[Taylor]

I think we can get all our doctrines including the health from the Bible but vegetarianism isn't a doctrine. Clean and unclean meats are clear in the Bible but not vegetarianism versus vegan except for the original diet. God gave EGW visions on health simply because people were so unhealthy and the knowledge of medical practices was not in any way where it is today. Most of what she said has been verified by science but it has taken time, and God didn't want us to suffer so many health problems in the mean time.