Worship the Creator not the destroyer

[Lutz13]

Quote:

The fire and brimstone are REAL the first resurrection is REAL the second resurrection is real - and BTW God's Word is never called "Fire and brimstone" -- no not in all of scripture.

So are we to assume this must be REAL as well..."The devil, who deceived them, was cat into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." - Revelation 20:10

Now let me ask you again. Would you go into a house a murder a family because God told you that the house was yours? That you must kill everyone in it because they are sinners...

[Twilight]

It takes a little while to figure out the personalities on a board and where they are coming from.

I will be patient as I see where people are coming from. :-)

Twilight.

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Inspiration is inspiration.

We cannot pick and choose what is inspired or what isn't' date=' otherwise we make an idol of our own reasoning.

For me, I accept Ellen White was inspired, so her commentary on the Bible is extremely important.

[/quote']

My response was to Lutz13 who started by saying that he/she accepts Ellen White as a prophet.

The response you find above from Robert is outside of that context and it matches his less than substantive "heresy" post (here http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post238979 ).

Quote:

When someone rejects that, I have to ask, why are they rejecting that?

If I sense that it is because "their light" is given ascendancy over the SOP, then I have to reject their position.

I have to give Robert credit on one point here. I find very little in what he posts that matches the 28 fundamental beliefs. One of the things that we constantly argue on the subject of prophecy is that all prophets must be tested by the Bible to see if they agree.

I think we all agree that Ellen White's statements agree with the 28 fundamental beliefs. Even a short cursory reading of Robert's material shows that he does not. Therefore even by our own standards we would insist that Robert should conclude that Ellen White is a false prophet UNTIL such time as he comes to correct Bible doctrinal positions.

We really have no argument at all for "even if this prophet contradicts what you find in scripture but they are a true prophet anyway" so there is no way to make that kind of case to Robert, as I am sure you already agree.

in Christ,

Bob

[Lutz13]

God never changes.

“Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, and today, and forever.” -Hebrews 13:8

“The counsel of the Lord standeth forever, the thoughts of His heart to all generations”-Psalms 33:11

Knowing that God never changes, we can look at things and know that it wasn't given by Him. It may seem as if animal sacrifice came from the divine. When Christ died on the cross what happened to it? It was abolished. It didn't stand forever. Man and his carnal mind wasn't able to see the results of sin without the shedding of blood. They desired it. God even blessed them in their ignorance. God sees the heart of the individual. As gross as it was, God saw their true intentions and counted it as righteousness.

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire; My ears You have opened burnt offering and sin offering You did not require” Psalms 40:6

It wasn't the sacrifice that forgave men. God did not require it. What probably did it was the fact that the individual was sorry he had to kill an animal because of what he did. It wasn't the blood, or anything from the ritual. We are forgiven, and are always forgive. Adams sins weren't forgive because of his animal sacrifices. He was forgiven because God came down to take all sins of the world upon Himself.

“So Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many, To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.” -Hebrews 9:28

“All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, everyone to his own way. And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all” -Isaiah 53:6

“For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” -2 Corinthians 5:21

Every sin ever committed was placed upon Christ. There is no denying this. If I were to punch someone in the face, God would take blame for it. So then would it be fine to say “God is punching people” No! Because we know I was the offender! Yet God takes blame.

[Lutz13]

It takes a little while to figure out the personalities on a board and where they are coming from.

I will be patient as I see where people are coming from. :-)

Twilight.

Let me share with you a little where I am coming from. Satan accuses God of being unfair. That His laws are impossible to follow. Satan went out to try and prove this, and accuses God of crimes He did not commit. The cross destroyed the works of the devil. Gods true character was revealed there. I don't want to be standing next to Satan accusing God of murder. Or compromise and try and justify why it is fine for God to destroy, or ask others to break His law by committing murder and looting cities. If you read Joshua you will see god telling them to take their items for booty.

What made Joshua and the children of Israel better than the people that lived in those cities? Were they more righteous? People become what they worship. The "lord God of Israel" was Satan. They became destructive and selfish listening to this "angel of light." That is why they do not accept Christ. He wasn't a destroying God like they were used to. Instead they listened to their god and had our Creator put up on a cross.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

It takes a little while to figure out the personalities on a board and where they are coming from.

I will be patient as I see where people are coming from. :-)

Twilight.

Let me share with you a little where I am coming from. Satan accuses God of being unfair. That His laws are impossible to follow. Satan went out to try and prove this, and accuses God of crimes He did not commit. The cross destroyed the works of the devil. Gods true character was revealed there. I don't want to be standing next to Satan accusing God of murder. Or compromise and try and justify why it is fine for God to destroy, or ask others to break His law by committing murder and looting cities. If you read Joshua you will see god telling them to take their items for booty.

What made Joshua and the children of Israel better than the people that lived in those cities? Were they more righteous? People become what they worship. The "lord God of Israel" was Satan. They became destructive and selfish listening to this "angel of light." That is why they do not accept Christ. He wasn't a destroying God like they were used to. Instead they listened to their god and had our Creator put up on a cross.

Maybe love by its nature has to destroy evil?

So who was leading Isreal when God told them to go up and possess the land?

Who was directing Moses when He lead Isreal into battle?

Satan?

If that is the case, then the scripture has to be treated as inaccurate and uninspired to support your view.

That is not a strong argument for your position.

Please do not get me wrong, I am open minded about this, but to say that all the acts attributed to God that involved death and destruction where actually the work of satan, seems a little far fetched.

It makes a mockery of the scriptures, if they do not mean what they say.

God bless,

Twilight.

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Maybe love by its nature has to destroy evil?

"Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men." -Romans 12:17

"Do no be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." -Romans 12:21

"When a mans ways please the Lord, He makes even his enemies to be at peace with him." -Proverbs 16:7

Quote:

So who was leading Isreal when God told them to go up and possess the land?

It depends. The bible clearly shows that there were two lords. The problem is that before the cross they didn't know the difference. Just like today, there are counterfeits to truth. The difference between now and then is that, we have the word of God. "Truly these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent" -Acts 17:30

Example:

"Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say "Go, number Israel and Judah" -2 Samuel 24:1

"Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel" -1 Chronicles 21:1

As you can see. There was another lord here. Lord Satan.

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Who was directing Moses when He lead Isreal into battle?

Satan?

I believe so. God would never ask us to go against His commandments. "Thou shalt not kill" Satan is doing whatever he can to get us to break any of them.

Quote:

If that is the case, then the scripture has to be treated as inaccurate and uninspired to support your view.

I respectfully disagree. There is much evidence throughout the bible that supports this. In fact, any other view shows that the bible is full of contradictions. Which also makes God look like a hypocrite. It is much like a puzzle. The more pieces you put together, the more you begin to see the picture.

Quote:

Please do not get me wrong, I am open minded about this, but to say that all the acts attributed to God that involved death and destruction where actually the work of satan, seems a little far fetched.

It may seem far fetched to the carnal human. Don't take that the wrong way. I'm just as carnal as you are. I'm just a babe trying to get over my vengeful spirit. Though I know the only way is to learn of the love that our God has for us. Most humans want a God they can relate to. Like what Paul wrote. "and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man." -Romans 1:23 We often try and make God like ourselves. "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways. " -Isaiah 55:8

Gods nature is repulsive to the carnal mind, so we try and corrupt the incorruptible and compare it to man.

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Maybe love by its nature has to destroy evil?

Oh. One more thought. How did Jesus destroy the works of the devil? By revealing His love. Self sacrifice. He didn't bring fire down on the Romans, He didn't save Himself from the cross. He was willing to give up everything for us.

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Maybe love by its nature has to destroy evil?

"Love suffers long and is kind love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth, bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things." -1 Corinthians 13:4-7

We know that love never destroys. The people that think so, will join the beast persecuting the saints in the last days. That is why it is so important to understand love. To have the same character as Christ.

[Robert]

We cannot pick and choose what is inspired or what isn't, otherwise we make an idol of our own reasoning.

Sorry...EGW is not part of the Bible. I can reject her if I want.

[Robert]

You need to embrace scripture to accept Ellen White.

You mean I must accept your view? No thanks....It's full of holes. I accept the Bible. If EGW is in line, fine, if not file 13.

Rob

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

We cannot pick and choose what is inspired or what isn't, otherwise we make an idol of our own reasoning.

Sorry...EGW is not part of the Bible. I can reject her if I want.

Exactly right. Those who believe in EGW are told by her to only accept what she says if it agrees with scripture. She wanted us to analyze each of her statements line by line.

In with the good ... out with the bad.

[Robert]

TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU

[BobRyan]

Try believing in the Bible first. Once you have that correctly accomplished you will find that Ellen White is totally affirmed by the Bible statements on accepting true prophets.

Matt 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but can not kill the soul - rather fear him who is able to destroy BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell".

Rev 21 - God casts the wicked into the Lake of Fire -- that burns with fire and brimstone.

Rev 14:10 - they will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the Lamb and of His Holy ones.

FIRST you have to accept the Bible to get this concept right.

Then you are free to accept the Bible-affirmed statements on true prophets which will lead to acceptance of Ellen White as a true prophet.

But first you must come to the point of accepting correct the Bible teaching that actually holds up under close review.

in Christ,

Bob

[Woody]

One should not believe each and every word a prophet speaks ... but rather .... only those that are from God. We are to do as she told us to do and check out each statement with scripture.

[Robert]

Maybe love by its nature has to destroy evil?

[Robert]

Try believing in the Bible first. Once you have that correctly accomplished you will find that Ellen White is totally affirmed by the Bible statements on accepting true prophets.

Try not cramming EGW down our throats. Also, stop it with the ego as in "once you have that correctly accomplished". That attribute comes from Lucifer.

[Robert]

Matt 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but can not kill the soul - rather fear him who is able to destroy BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell".

[Robert]

God will not force His love and protection on those who persist in unbelief. When God retreats things go bad.

Deut 31:17 Then My anger shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured. And many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?' 18 And I will surely hide My face in that day because of all the evil which they have done, [what kind of evil?] in that they have turned to other gods [rejected God - the sin of unbelief].

God doesn't do evil....Trouble, death and mayhem is the result of God removing Himself. Would you like to see this again?

Number 12:10 And when the cloud departed [God was in the cloud] from above the tabernacle, suddenly Miriam became leprous, as white as snow. Then Aaron turned toward Miriam, and there she was, a leper.

God removes Himself....Apparently God was protecting Miriam from this disease, but when He departed His protection went wtih Him. God is good...there is no evil in God. God doesn't kill, He doesn't destroy....We destroy ourselves when we persistently tell Him to take a hike.

Rob

[Lutz13]

BobRyan. I am sorry if this comes off as disrespectful. But since you love to quote Ellen G. White. It would seem as if she agrees with this message.

"By rejecting the first warning from God, Pharaoh of old sowed the seeds of obstinacy, and he reaped obstinacy. God did not compel him to disbelieve." CoL p84-85

"And I will harden Pharaoh's hear, and multiply My signs and My wonder in the land of Egypt" -Exodus 7:3

God is saying He will harden Pharaoh's heart. Yet she says God did not compel him to disbelieve.

Not just there. You say I take this out of context, but she says "God destroys no man, everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed themselves." We reap what we sow. It is like a loving father who tells his child "do not drink and drive" yet that son goes and parties and drives off of a bridge and dies. God tells us not to do something because He knows it will hurt us. Not because He wants us to be unhappy, or force us to be like Him. If we hold onto these sins and not let Him purge them out of us, they will kill us. We will drive off that bridge.

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: Robert

God will not force His love and protection on those who persist in unbelief. When God retreats things go bad.

Deut 31:17 Then My anger shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured. And many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?' 18 And I will surely hide My face in that day because of all the evil which they have done, [what kind of evil?] in that they have turned to other gods [rejected God - the sin of unbelief].

God doesn't do evil....Trouble, death and mayhem is the result of God removing Himself. Would you like to see this again?

Number 12:10 And when the cloud departed [God was in the cloud] from above the tabernacle, suddenly Miriam became leprous, as white as snow. Then Aaron turned toward Miriam, and there she was, a leper.

God removes Himself....Apparently God was protecting Miriam from this disease, but when He departed His protection went wtih Him. God is good...there is no evil in God. God doesn't kill, He doesn't destroy....We destroy ourselves when we persistently tell Him to take a hike.

Rob

Exactly! Very well put.

[Guest William Olson]

A reply to BobRyan:

Bob, you said that there was “not one text in all of Scripture says that Satan did any of the destroying of Sodom and Gomorrah.” That’s because our Saviour is the sin-Bearer who takes all sins upon Himself ---- without exception (Isa. 53:6) ---- “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” Isa. 45:7. In Ex. 12:12, 13 and 23, it is written, “For I (the Lord) will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord. And the blood (of the Passover lamb) shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.” Now, in verse 23, Moses told the elders of Israel, “For the Lord will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when He seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the Lord will pass over the door, and will not suffer (allow) the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.” There’s another being introduced here ---- the destroyer. Who is the destroyer but he who is the opposite of the Creator.

Also there are “a number of texts that say God did it.” This was covered in the first paragraph: Jesus the Creator is also the sin-Bearer ---- everything good and everything bad He placed upon His own head.

And you are correct when you say “not one text in all of Scripture says that Satan destroyed the world by a flood.” There’s no text because the Creator is not an Accuser, Satan is the accuser (Rev. 12:10). That’s why Jesus opened not His mouth at His trial. If He did, He would be accusing those who were accusing Him, of lying.

And, yes, there are “plenty of texts that say that God destroyed the world by a flood.” And now, concerning Satan’s fear of being killed by the flood, Satan didn’t directly start the flood himself; the flood was the result of his follower’s debauchery that ruptured the canopy of water that protected the inhabitance of earth. Remember, it never rained before the flood.

We must be ready for Jesus!

[Robert]

"And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply My signs and My wonder in the land of Egypt" -Exodus 7:3

Let me give you assignment

Find the other verse that states Pharaoh hardened his own heart. I'll check back....

[Robert]

there are “plenty of texts that say that God destroyed the world by a flood.”

Passively or actively? Answer: Passively!

God removed Himself from a world who rejected Him. We don't know the details of what caused the flood. The Bible doesn't state this....But we do know that when God retreats things begin to fall apart in this sinful world.

Because God has allowed Satan to develop sin God assumes the blame for everything that has gone astray until the day of atonement. Hence you see statements such as "I create evil...I God do all these things."

[BobRyan]

A reply to BobRyan:

Bob, you said that there was “not one text in all of Scripture says that Satan did any of the destroying of Sodom and Gomorrah.” That’s because our Saviour is the sin-Bearer who takes all sins upon Himself ---

[BobRyan]

BobRyan. I am sorry if this comes off as disrespectful. But since you love to quote Ellen G. White. It would seem as if she agrees with this message.

"By rejecting the first warning from God, Pharaoh of old sowed the seeds of obstinacy, and he reaped obstinacy. God did not compel him to disbelieve." CoL p84-85

"And I will harden Pharaoh's hear, and multiply My signs and My wonder in the land of Egypt" -Exodus 7:3

God is saying He will harden Pharaoh's heart. Yet she says God did not compel him to disbelieve.