Worship the Creator not the destroyer

[BobRyan]

Do you really think it is "mere coincidence" that when God reveals the second death - lake of fire and brimstone to John he describes it in the terms of Rev 21 and the terms of Rev 14:10-11 "Tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the Lamb and of His holy ones" -- and then when God shows that same thing to a prophet like Ellen White she describes it the same way -- as follows.

Quote:

Great Controversy - 673

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething 673

lake of fire. It is the time of the judgement and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit.

His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

Quote:

EW 294

The Second Death

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together.

I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but

295

also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!"

{EW 294.2}

Said the angel, "Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe." I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. Again I looked and saw the earth purified. There was not a single sign of the curse. The broken, uneven surface of the earth now looked like a level, extensive plain.

in Christ,

Bob

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Let me give you assignment

Find the other verse that states Pharaoh hardened his own heart. I'll check back....

You mean verses? :smile:

Exodus 8:15 "But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the Lord had said."

Exodus 8:32 "And Pharaoh hardened his heart"

Exodus 9:34 "....he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart"

[Robert]

Satan had no ability to "flood the earth" himself. For that you need GOD.

Really? Who said? You must remember Lucifer was God's highest form of creation....He was the head angel.

[Robert]

The wicked do not lite the fire and brimstone of the Lake of fire.

Neither does God. Since the day Satan took ownership of this world it has been in decay mode. Because of God's mercy He has been holding back much of the rotting process. When God retreats this will all cave in.

Let's say a stranger drills a hole in a dike. I come along and put my finger in the hole. Everything is fine until one day the town turns on me and tells me to “get”!....I leave and a few weeks later the dike cracks and floods the town. Everyone dies. Who did it?

The stranger or me?

[Robert]

Quote:

Let me give you assignment

Find the other verse that states Pharaoh hardened his own heart. I'll check back....

You mean verses? :smile:

Exodus 8:15 "But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the Lord had said."

Exodus 8:32 "And Pharaoh hardened his heart"

Exodus 9:34 "....he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart"

A + because you corrected the test giver.... teehe

[Robert]

Who did it?

Answer: The stranger. In this case "me" represents "God". (No, I ain't saying I'm God..so chill)

Q: Why did the stranger do it?

A: Sin

Q1: Who permitted the stranger to act on his nature and do evil?

A1: God.

Q2: Why?

A2: Free will, but also to allow the principle of self-love to be exposed. Why? Because sin is a deceiver. The love of self sounds wonderful, until put into action.

Q3: Now, who assumes the blame for the deaths that the stranger caused?

A3: God!

Q4: Why?

A4: Because none of this would have happened if God hadn't allowed the stranger to develop sin.

[Lutz13]

Quote:

However when God says HE destroyed the world by a flood - it does not mean "It was really Satan but I like to pretend like it was me -- so I say it that way in scripture".

"And Saul was afraid of David, because the Lord was with him, and was departed from Saul" -1 Samuel 18:12

God departs from Saul.

"...Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it." -1 Samuel 31:4

Saul kills himself.

"I gave you a king in My anger, and took him away in My wrath." -Hosea 13:11

God says "I killed Saul"

[Robert]

Quote:

"And Saul was afraid of David, because the Lord was with him, and was departed from Saul" -1 Samuel 18:12

God departs from Saul.

And we must remember that David was quite a mess himself, but he hadn't rejected God. Not true with Saul. Clearly the Lord had departed from his life.

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"...Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it." -1 Samuel 31:4Saul kills himself.

Right, because he was losing the battle. So instead of being captured he committed suicide. Clearly Saul killed Himself

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"I gave you a king in My anger, and took him away in My wrath." -Hosea 13:11 God says "I killed Saul"

Here God assumes the blame until the day of atonement, but He isn't to blame....

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

BobRyan. I am sorry if this comes off as disrespectful. But since you love to quote Ellen G. White. It would seem as if she agrees with this message.

"By rejecting the first warning from God, Pharaoh of old sowed the seeds of obstinacy, and he reaped obstinacy. God did not compel him to disbelieve." CoL p84-85

"And I will harden Pharaoh's hear, and multiply My signs and My wonder in the land of Egypt" -Exodus 7:3

God is saying He will harden Pharaoh's heart. Yet she says God did not compel him to disbelieve.

No disrespect taken.

In Exodus we have "Pharaoh hardened his heart".

We have "God hardened Pharoah's heart"

and we have "Pharoah's heart was hargened".

the SAME sun that melts the wax hardens the clay. It is the MERCY of God that hardened Pharoah's heart. By starting with small tests and small mercies and building up -- each time removing the plague -- Pharoah like an unclean frog was being boiled.

But those SAME mercies convinced the mixed multitude to leave Egypt with Israel and follow the one true God.

Thus it is the free-will choice of the person to be clay or wax.

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Not just there. You say I take this out of context, but she says "God destroys no man, everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed themselves." We reap what we sow.

It is only taking it out of context -- to miss the part where God is the one who is "not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance" 2Peter 3 - such that the choice of man is setting him either on the path to eternal life by accepting the Gospel or the path to the Lake of Fire by rejecting the Gospel.

But the wicked "do not raise themselves" at the end of the millennium.

The wicked do not sit on the throne of God and judge themselves.

The wicked do not lite the fire and brimstone of the Lake of fire.

The wicked do not toss themselves into that fire and brimstone burning lake.

the wicked do not cause themselves to feel all the suffering and torment as long as there is one particle of them left for the fire to burn.

None of that is being done by the wicked "to themselves" -- yet they are the ones who chose to reject the way of salvation that was freely offered.

in Christ,

Bob

I think one of the strongest arguments against the idea that God does not destroy the wicked, is the length of time it takes for each sinner to die.

If that is self inflicted, or the result of mans activity, then how would we have a balanced receiving of the punishment of sin for each individual.

That can only happen if it is meted out by God, surely?

How would a natural phenomena cause this to happen?

Question for all, building on Bobryans post.

Twilight.

[Twilight]

Do you really think it is "mere coincidence" that when God reveals the second death - lake of fire and brimstone to John he describes it in the terms of Rev 21 and the terms of Rev 14:10-11 "Tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the Lamb and of His holy ones" -- and then when God shows that same thing to a prophet like Ellen White she describes it the same way -- as follows.

Quote:

Great Controversy - 673

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething 673

lake of fire. It is the time of the judgement and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit.

His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

Quote:

EW 294

The Second Death

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together.

I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but

295

also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!"

{EW 294.2}

Said the angel, "Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe." I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. Again I looked and saw the earth purified. There was not a single sign of the curse. The broken, uneven surface of the earth now looked like a level, extensive plain.

in Christ,

Bob

These quotes do seem pretty clear.

But then if the argument is that the prophets were not always inspired, then Ellen White could have perceived this wrong.

She clearly states it is an act of God.

So to receive that this is not an act of God, is to reject her inspiration.

I think that is very dangerous personally.

Twilight.

[Robert]

She clearly states it is an act of God.

So to receive that this is not an act of God, is to reject her inspiration.

I think that is very dangerous personally.

Twilight.

She is not the final word. Apparently you don't pay attention to her other statements:

Do not think that, because we have a glimmer of the light of God, that we have it all.--Ms. 3, 1889, pp. 1-3. (Morning Talk at Ottawa, Kansas, May 14, 1889.)

The question has been asked me, "Do you think that the Lord has any more light for us as a people?" I answer that He has light that is new to us, and yet it is precious old light that is to shine forth from the Word of truth [the Bible]. We have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light that is yet to come to us. [1SM 401]

We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. [CW 37]

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

She clearly states it is an act of God.

So to receive that this is not an act of God, is to reject her inspiration.

I think that is very dangerous personally.

Twilight.

She is not the final word. Apparently you don't pay attention to her other statements:

Do not think that, because we have a glimmer of the light of God, that we have it all.--Ms. 3, 1889, pp. 1-3. (Morning Talk at Ottawa, Kansas, May 14, 1889.)

The question has been asked me, "Do you think that the Lord has any more light for us as a people?" I answer that He has light that is new to us, and yet it is precious old light that is to shine forth from the Word of truth [the Bible]. We have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light that is yet to come to us. [1SM 401]

We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. [CW 37]

If she is not the final word, then you cannot use her statements to support your own argument.

The bible tells us that it should be according to the Law and the Prophets, if they speak not according to this, then there is no light in them.

So the prophets should not be disagreeing with each other, but building on what the others have said.

As to new light coming to us and that we should not be closed minded to them, I agree totally with those sentiments my friend. :-)

Which is why I am open minded about this discussion.

Now here are some questions for you:

What was the first act of "killing" performed in the bible?

The slaying of the lamb in the Garden of Eden.

Now was that God or Satan?

The Jewish economy and laws, where they from God or Satan?

When the Isrealites were told to stone to death, was that from God or Satan.

Who was it that Moses conferred with on the mercy seat, was that God or Satan.

I sense a danger here, that every time we do not understand an act of God, that it does not fit our interpretation of what Gods character should be, we assign it to Satan.

Now I fully accept that sometimes those things God permits, He often receives the "blame" for, but how far does it go.

Do we have to rewrite plain statements from the bible to carry this to an extreme?

That is my fear here.

Twilight

[Lutz13]

Quote:

She is not the final word. Apparently you don't pay attention to her other statements:

Most will reject and blind themselves to this message. Because we have a vengeful spirit. Most just assume God has to have one too. They try to corrupt the incorruptible.

They keep posting that same post of what EGW saw. Ignoring the facts that she says other things that are contrary to what was posted in that cluster.

I will assume this will get ignored too.

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"The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow. In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon His law." ---GC p.37

What she is saying here is. The judgment that came upon Jerusalem, is a mere shadow of what is coming to this earth. The same destruction that fell upon Jerusalem of old, will happen again on a global scale. Do a little research on what went on inside that city. Titus was so disgusted he had everyone inside killed. Now imagine that on a global scale. Most think it will be God causing plagues to come upon this earth. No my dear friends. It won't be God doing it.

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The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will.---GC p.35

By rejecting God, He withdrew out and Satan was allowed to go in and destroy. The arm that held back the destroying angel was now gone.

[Lutz13]

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I sense a danger here, that every time we do not understand an act of God, that it does not fit our interpretation of what Gods character should be, we assign it to Satan.

If what I know of God now isn't really true. I will nose dive head first into the "lake" I would rather die than live with a tyrant that changes his mind all the time.

If I have to fear my God, eternity isn't worth it. Not if I have to be afraid.

I know the true Creator God is pure love. Love does not destroy.

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The slaying of the lamb in the Garden of Eden.

Does it say God killed an animal to make those coats of skins? Or is that a human assumption? Wasn't Satan also in the garden of Eden?

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"Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God..." Ezekiel 28:13

After he had sinned, his power to deceive was the more deceptive, and the unveiling of his character was the more difficult, because of the exalted position he had held with the Father.

--- DoA pp. 758-759

You think Satan would go around and take the blame for his crimes? Not when he could cover it up and blame God.

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When the Isrealites were told to stone to death, was that from God or Satan.

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"And the Lord said unto Moses, the man shall be surely put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp."-Numbers 16:35

"So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, 'He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.'"-John 8:7

God never changes. His counsel stands forever. How is it you do not see these things?

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Do we have to rewrite plain statements from the bible to carry this to an extreme?

Not at all. What is important is to understand which Lord or God they are referring to. You know all good comes from the Creator. What would the opposite be? It couldn't be God. He never has to erase what He has made. Everything is perfect. Though Lucifer sinned, free will is always a perfect gift.

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God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power.---DoA p.759

[Lutz13]

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These quotes do seem pretty clear.

It is not literal.

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By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of His glory is to them a consuming fire.

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To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire" (Heb. 12:29). In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them.--DA 107 (1898).

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A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God.---GC. 543

It is Gods glory that consumes them. It drives them insane, they can't stand the goodness, it is repulsive. From the eyes of a sinner, God looks like fire. When God brings this fire down from Heaven, it isn't literal fire that literally melts them. It is fire that burns their souls. They in turn wipe eachother out. They would rather die than be forced into heaven. So yes, Satan would bring fire down to kill them and himself. He is so in love with himself, he would rather die than live a life of unselfishness.

Even if it was literal. Keep in mind. The things she saw were still through the eyes of a sinner. So Gods glory to her was like a consuming fire.

[Lutz13]

The worlds view of God.

http://www.sedentario.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/god-is-a-killer-460x247.jpg

I just can't agree....

[Guest William Olson]

The last message to prepare the 144,000 to stand in the presence of God without the Mediator Jesus Christ is: “Worship the Creator, not the destroyer!” This is the character God’s people must have that enable them to stand in the Day of the Lord. When I first heard that God destroys no one, I was overjoyed. It was like a very dark curtain was torn in two from top to bottom in my mind and I cried out, “Yes, that’s it!” I started studying the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy and now, about 40 years later, I’m more confident than ever that I understand and know God (Jer.9:23, 24).

When a person is ready to accept this message that the true God doesn’t destroy, he or she will accept it gladly. Others not willing to give up their notion of a killer god, no matter what, will never understand it. The reason it’s important for us to know the difference between the Creator and the destroyer is that it’s our human nature to become like the one we worship. Since sin began with Satan, let’s begin there.

In Rom. 3:23, Paul wrote, “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory (character, AA 576) of God.” I know this might be ho-hum to many of you, but I think it’s crucial to begin here. Now, what is sin? “Sin is the transgression of God’s Law (1 John 3:4).” What happens when we disobey God’s law? Another law comes into our being: “The law of sin and death (Rom. 8:2).” When Adam and Eve defied their Creator (Gen. 3:1-6) by breaking His law (“Thou shalt have no other gods before Me,” Ex. 20:3), they made “the great dragon...that old serpent, called the Devil and Satan (Rev.12:9)” “the god of this world (2 Cor. 4:4)” and “the prince (or ruler) of this world (John 12:31).” In that defiance to their Creator they gave to Satan what God had given them: “Dominion...over all the earth (Gen. 1:26).” Therefore by believing the father of lies (John 8:44), Adam and Eve gave their “Dominion” to the destroyer and he turned their paradise into his world of death and destruction. That was how and when “that old serpent, deceiveth the whole world (Rev. 12:9).” And now our inherited tendency is to sin and come short of God’s character, because our human character is to follow “the god of this world” whose character is the opposite of Jesus Christ the Creator’s character/glory ---- Col. 1:16, Eph. 3:9, Heb. 1:2 and John 1:1-5, 9-14.

From the moment Adam and Eve defied their Creator and gave their allegiance to Satan, Satan “became the god of this world (2 Cor. 4:4).” Consequently, we all became citizens “of this world.” As citizens “of this world” it’s instinctive for us to follow “the god of this world.” Likewise, all religions “of this world” instinctively worship “the god of this world.” Our bloody history proves this, doesn’t it? And since the destroyer is this world’s god and ruler, all deaths, diseases, and disasters come from him. We must never confuse the Creator’s character of love with Satan’s character of hate, because by their fruit we shall know them (Matt. 7:16-20) ---- God has spoken!

When Adam and Eve turned their backs on the Creator, by choosing to follow the destroyer, they gave this earth, the dominion the Creator had given them (Gen. 1:26-28), to Satan and he turned their paradise into his world of grief. Thus they became citizens of this world, and the enemy of God (James 4:4). We, too, have inherited that nature of being enemies of the Creator, because our ways are not like His ways (Isa. 55:8, 9). Christ’s loving character is foreign to us. This is why we tend to lower the Creator’s sinless nature to be like our sinful nature ---- we sinners are more comfortable with a god who is like us. Therefore we tend to bring God’s character down to our level, rather than have God bring our character up to His level. This is where the “spiritual condition” of this world is exposed: All religions, “of this world,” worship the god “of this world,” while believing they’re worshipping the Creator of “heaven and earth (Gen. 1:1).” They’re confusing Christ the Creator with Satan the destroyer (John 10:10, also Heb. 2:14). They’re following “The Beast” who has Adulterated Holiness with Wickedness (Contaminated the Spiritual with the Worldly), and that is Babylon: Spiritual Confusion! The confusion is ---- WHO GOD IS!

We must prepare for the Day of the Lord

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

She is not the final word. Apparently you don't pay attention to her other statements:

Do not think that, because we have a glimmer of the light of God, that we have it all.--Ms. 3, 1889, pp. 1-3. (Morning Talk at Ottawa, Kansas, May 14, 1889.)

The question has been asked me, "Do you think that the Lord has any more light for us as a people?" I answer that He has light that is new to us, and yet it is precious old light that is to shine forth from the Word of truth [the Bible']. We have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light that is yet to come to us. [1SM 401]

We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. [CW 37]

If she is not the final word, then you cannot use her statements to support your own argument.

Sure I can....In fact I just did and I'll do it again. She states she had only a glimmer of light. Deal with it.

[Robert]

Study of Hebrews, By E.H. “Jack” Sequeira

Turn to Leviticus sixteen. We will not deal with the whole chapter. We will only deal with the issue of the cleansing of the sanctuary which is described in the ritual of the two goats in verses seven to ten and verse twenty to twenty-two. The question is, “Does the heavenly sanctuary need cleansing?” We have come under fire; the reason for this is that the blood of Christ, which He took with Him after the cross, doesn’t defile the sanctuary. We say that, in the earthly sanctuary, the priest or the sinner confessed his sin on the lamb. The lamb was slain and the blood was taken into the sanctuary. The record of the sins was kept in heaven. The problem is that, once a year, the curtain and the sanctuary had to be cleansed. What is it that transfers our sins from the earth to heaven? It is the blood. If the blood of Christ defiles the sanctuary that sounds blasphemous. So we need to deal with the issue. Look at verse seven. This is dealing with what the priest does on the day of atonement:

And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

We as a church take the position that the one goat which was chosen for the Lord represents Christ. The other goat represents Satan. We are unique in this position as a denomination. There are non-Adventist scholars who agree with us, but [as a whole] the other Christians take the position that both the goats represent Christ. So here is where the problem is. Look at verses twenty and twenty-two:

And when he had made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat [that’s the second goat]: And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel.

Keep in mind, the priest comes out of the sanctuary, he places his hands on the live goat, and he confesses all the iniquities of the children of Israel:

And all their transgressions and all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: And the goat shall bear upon him all their [i.e., children of Israel] iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness:

If the live goat, which we say is Satan, bears the iniquities of the children of Israel, then aren’t we making Satan our sin bearer? That’s the accusation of the Evangelicals, and it’s also coming from within our church. So we need to settle what the issue is. Does the heavenly sanctuary need cleansing almost two thousand years after the cross? Let’s look at it step by step. Look at verse seven:

And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

What was the condition of those two goats? What were the qualifications of the two goats? Did the goats have to meet certain specifications? They had to be without blemish. One of them or both of them? Both of them had to be without blemish, so that you could interchange the goats. You cast lots and the lot falls on either this goat or the other. So we must be clear that the second goat doesn’t represent Satan as we know him but Lucifer as God created him, because both Christ and Lucifer were spotless.

Look now at the second goat for a moment. What is the name of the second goat in your Bible? In the KJV it is “Scapegoat.” In the original it is “Azazel,” and some of the modern translations will have that word. What does the word “Azazel” mean? In the Hebrew, words have meanings. What does the word mean? We do not know today because the Hebrew language changed in the ninth century and we do not know exactly what it means.

But here is what we have from the best of the scholars. According to the Hebrew scholars (these are not Christian scholars, but Jewish scholars), “Azazel” is the name of the devil. So the Hebrew scholars back us up. We do have not the Hebrew manuscript but we do have the Syriac manuscript, which is one of the oldest manuscripts. The Syriac manuscript for “Azazel” has this phrase “the angel that revolted.” Very interesting and a very reliable manuscript. Most Christian scholars interpret Azazel as the Scapegoat. What does scapegoat mean? If you looked it up in a dictionary, what does it mean? We use it in our English language.

Someone has to take the blame. That is the issue! When you deal with sin in a legal sense, as a transgression of the law, there are three things involved. First there is guilt. Then there is punishment. Then there is responsibility.....

The thing is this: who is responsible for sin? One of the clear teachings of the Bible is the sovereignty of God. That means that nothing happens in the universe without the permission of God. That’s what it means. God is sovereign. Did God know that Lucifer would sin? Yes. Then why did He create him? That’s one of the big questions.

If God is sovereign, then He has allowed Satan to come in. He has allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve. This has created a problem and this was not solved on the cross. Let me give you an illustration. When Adam sinned and God came to visit him, what did he say to God when God asked why did you sin? He said, “This woman, whom You gave....” So upon whom was he putting the blame? On God. Today you will hear it all the time: “If God is love why is He allowing all the sicknesses and problems? If God is love, why is He allowing a drought in America?” These are the kind of questions that have to be solved if the great controversy is to come to an end.

So what does God do? God actually assumes the blame! He assumes the blame until the Day of Atonement. There is a text which I want you to look for, it’s in the Old Testament, where God is speaking. He says, “I have created evil.” You will find many texts in the Bible where God assumes the blame for many things. For instance God said, “I have hardened Pharaoh’s heart.” These texts cause a lot of problems to many Christians. You wonder why those texts are there. Well, it’s because God assumes the blame until the Day of Atonement. Because He’s sovereign and He allows things to happen, He has to assume the blame. Does He assume the blame for a good reason? Yes. But we will not know it until the judgment....

Even in the minds of Christians, there are questions. Now we see through a glass darkly but then, face to face. When the Day of Atonement is over every knee will bow down, including Satan, and admit, “God you are right.” Every knee will confess. The purpose of the Day of Atonement is to put the blame where it belongs. And that is on Satan. Turn to Ezek. 28:15:

Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created [That’s Azazel. He was blameless. He was perfect.], till iniquity was found in thee.

How can sin come out of something that is perfect? That’s a mystery. It is called the mystery of iniquity. The word “mystery“ means something that can be seen and can be known but cannot be explained. How can a sinless being produce sin? I can’t explain that. We cannot explain the fall. But it is a fact. Neither can we explain how God can produce righteousness out of sinful flesh. That’s also a mystery. Can God do it? Yes.

Lets go back to Leviticus sixteen. The next question I want to bring before you is, “Why did God instruct Moses and the Jews that they had to use goats instead of sheep?” If you look at your Bibles you will discover that goats represent or symbolize sin. Look at Matt.25:33:

And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

He divides the human race. The sheep are on one side and the goats on the other. Who are the sheep? The righteous or the sinners? The righteous. Please notice the goats represent sin. ....

Back to Leviticus sixteen. Who created this world? Who actually did the speaking? Christ. We have Christ the Creator and Lucifer the originator of sin. The issue is, “Which of these two are to blame for sin?” That’s the issue in the Day of Atonement. Who is to blame for sin?

What does the priest do with the goat upon whom the lot fell for the Lord? Look at verse nine:

And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the Lord’s lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.

The Lord’s goat is Christ who takes the guilt and the punishment of our sin. Did the cross deal with the issue of blame? The answer is No. The cross did not deal with the blame. Who was to blame for sin? The cross only took our guilt and our punishment. As far as we are concerned, there is an atonement between us and God through the blood of Christ. But the issue now is, “Who is to blame for sin?”

Let me give you another text, Rom.7:19,20. Who is Paul talking about? Is he talking about believers or unbelievers? That is not the issue here. But listen to what He says in Romans 7 in two places, Romans 7:19,20:

For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

What is he saying here? “I want to do good but instead I’m doing evil.” As far as the choice is concerned, what choice is Paul making in verse nineteen? Good or evil? I’m not dealing with performance now but with choice. He chooses to do good. But in performance he does evil. Look at verse twenty:

Now if I do that I would not [if I’m doing what I did not choose to do], it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Who is Paul putting the blame on? Sin that dwells in me. We call that indwelling sin. Look at the next verse:

I find then a law [principle] when I would do good, evil is present with me. [i want to keep the law, but instead I’m not keeping it, I’m breaking it. And you will find this in the next verses.] For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Who put that law of sin in you? When God came to Adam whom did Adam blame? He blamed Eve and then God. Then God went to Eve. Who did Eve blame? The serpent. Please notice that God did not go to the serpent in the Garden of Eden. Why? Because the Day of Atonement is going to settle this. In the Day of Atonement, God will say to Satan, “You are to blame.” And he will admit it because all the evidence is there.

So what is happening on the day of atonement is that the priest will go into the sanctuary and cleanse the sanctuary. He will cleanse the people, the congregation from the guilt and punishment. Then He will take the blame for sin and He will lay it on Satan.

Here is a question: When you accepted Christ did you make a decision not to sin? Did you promise God to be good? I’m not asking about your performance. Supposing you could carry out your choices, would you sin tomorrow? So as far as your choice is concerned, would you chose to sin? No. But we are sinning. I’m doing it. Why are we sinning? Because we have what we call the law of sin in our members.

Who put that law of sin there? Do you blame God or do you blame Lucifer? Who is the one that originated it? Lucifer took that sin and injected that sin into mankind through Adam and Eve. The result is this that the world today is blaming God for the mess that we are in on this earth.

No one is talking about deliberate sin. That’s why I said that we cannot explain the fall. Why did Adam sin? Why did he think he sinned? What did Adam say? He said, “This woman that You gave me.... Don’t put the blame on me, I had no intention of eating that forbidden fruit, but this woman....” He actually put the blame on God. Eve put the blame on the serpent. But who is to blame? God or the serpent? That is what the Day of Atonement will settle. The great controversy cannot come to an end unless the heavenly sanctuary is cleansed from the blame of sin. That’s why the word “Azazel” means, “The angel that takes the blame.”

So what happens is that the Lord’s goat takes the guilt and punishment; Azazel takes the blame. Please notice that the Azazel goat is not killed. What do you do with it? He is taken into the wilderness. Why? For one thousand years, Satan will have the opportunity to investigate his own case. For that thousand years, he has no one to tempt because no one is there. He has a thousand years when he will be able to contemplate what he has done to this world.

The Lord’s goat shed blood but the scapegoat shed no blood because he has to contemplate what a mess he’s made. Let us approach this from another angle. When Lucifer sinned, did he think he was doing a good thing? Or did he think he was doing a bad thing?

He said that he was trying to improve the lot of the angels. There’s something here that is very important and we need to understand it. The love of God, which is the basis of His government, has no self in it. “Love seeketh not her own.” When you look at it philosophically, the love of self sounds very convincing. “You cannot be happy unless you love self.” So the idea of self-love sounds right. There is that text is Proverbs that says, “There’s a way that seems right.”

So Lucifer felt that his way of self-love was better than God’s way where there is no self. So God said, “Go ahead, I will allow you to develop sin,” because that’s what the meaning of sin is. Sin is turning toward self. God said, “I will allow you to develop this world on the principle of self.” This world has been developed on the principle of self for the last six thousand years. Has the world improved? No. If you look at the history of this world, the moment you lift up the principle of self, what happens to society? Does it become better or does it become worse? It becomes worse. After two thousand years, the world had become so terrible that the knowledge of God was almost wiped out. God said, “I will destroy the world and give it a new start.”

And you have the same trend for the next two thousand years when God gave the gospel to the Jews. Did the Jews improve the situation even though He gave them the oracles of God? The Jews had the explicit knowledge of God. Did it help them? What happened to them? It became worse and worse and worse.

Then Christ came and redeemed us and established the Christian Church. Has the church been getting better and better? What’s the history of the Christian Church? Take the nineteenth and twentieth centuries when God allowed the world to increase in knowledge — scientific knowledge, technology. Has science solved our problem? It has solved our problem in terms of amenities of life. Now I can press a button and my dishes are all washed. In that sense, it has improved. But as far as the situation of the world is concerned, is it a better place in which to live? Has crime decreased? No. So has science solved the problem? No. Everything that has been tried has failed because self, sin doesn’t improve things. It makes it worse.

But the thing is this, that the Day of Atonement will put the blame of sin where it belongs. Christ accepted the guilt and punishment and paid for it on the cross but the responsibility, the blame for sin will be placed upon Satan. He will not be killed. He will be sent into the wilderness for one thousand years. Does Lucifer repent after the one thousand years? He acknowledges that God has been right in the controversy but he still operates on the self-sin principle when he leads his army of angels and men against the city of God.

Satan and his angels are a solidarity so they operate as one and reap the same results of rebellion. No human being is present during the thousand years. And he has no permission to go beyond this earth during that time. He can only remain here on this earth. He cannot go beyond it. In that sense, he is bound. Remember that he will have a thousand years to contemplate what he has done to this world, but does he repent? No, he does not repent.

[Twilight]

Brother, your agression makes it very hard to receive anything from you. :-)

Twilight.

Study of Hebrews, By E.H. “Jack” Sequeira

Turn to Leviticus sixteen. We will not deal with the whole chapter. We will only deal with the issue of the cleansing of the sanctuary which is described in the ritual of the two goats in verses seven to ten and verse twenty to twenty-two. The question is, “Does the heavenly sanctuary need cleansing?” We have come under fire; the reason for this is that the blood of Christ, which He took with Him after the cross, doesn’t defile the sanctuary. We say that, in the earthly sanctuary, the priest or the sinner confessed his sin on the lamb. The lamb was slain and the blood was taken into the sanctuary. The record of the sins was kept in heaven. The problem is that, once a year, the curtain and the sanctuary had to be cleansed. What is it that transfers our sins from the earth to heaven? It is the blood. If the blood of Christ defiles the sanctuary that sounds blasphemous. So we need to deal with the issue. Look at verse seven. This is dealing with what the priest does on the day of atonement:

idea of self-love sounds right. There is that text is Proverbs that says, “There’s a way that seems right.”

[Twilight]

Back to the Subject.

In Act of the Apostles an angel frees Peter from prison.

That same angel then goes and "ministers" to Herod.

Now was that Satan who released Peter and then ministered to Herod?

Sorry guys, I do not buy it.

You need to make some clearer arguments than that anything that does not agree with your point of view must be the devil acting.

That is standard "theology" in a "closed minded" community that does not want their view to be challenged. Look at the JW's and fundamental Muslims, they use the same argument.

"If you do not agree with me there is something wrong with you spiritually".

That is not a good argument folks.

Cmon, lets have some evidence and discussion, rather than "you cannot receive it because you are..."

Twilight

[BobRyan]

It is Gods glory that consumes them. It drives them insane,

[Guest William Olson]

Dear brothers and sisters, let’s continue ----

When Adam and Eve sinned, we inherited a sinful nature from the devil through them, “for the devil sinneth from the beginning (1 John 3:8).” Therefore “the law of sin and death (Rom. 8:2)” is our destiny. Simply, if we sin we die ---- Period! Since sin is the breaking of the Ten Commandments, and death is the natural result of breaking the Ten Commandments, and since we’re all sinners under the condemnation of the Ten Commandments ---- we need help! Thanks to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, for He has made us free of “the law of sin and death” that comes from the works of the devil. Our only help is found in Christ when He became the Son of man. He, who never sinned became One of us so that “He might destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8)” in all who place their faith in Him. “He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).” Even though Jesus never sinned, He actually became sin, “That we might be made the righteousness of God in Him (2 Cor. 5:21).”

Jesus our Saviour became our sin-Bearer. Without Christ, we’re doomed: “Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death (James 1:15).” Jesus, who never sinned, actually became sin to save us from the consequence of sin.

“Christ is all, and in all (Col. 3:11, and TM 433).” He is in every breathing person He came to redeem, and that includes every sinner who ever was, or ever will be. (See Isa. 53:6 and 1 John 2:2). Let’s read John 1:1 and 14: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” “And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father) full of grace and truth.” Jesus is the Word of God who was made flesh when He became a man. Rev. 19:13 confirms this: “And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: And His name is called The Word of God.” Jesus verified this, also: “Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: And they are they which testify of me (John 5:39).” Jesus came to this earth not merely to save us, but to reveal to the whole universe the character of the true God: “For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them (Luke 9:56).”

The Bible is “The Word of God,” too. Since Jesus and the Bible are Both the Word of God, every word in the Bible, from Genesis through Revelation, applies to Him. Everything good, and everything evil, applies to the sin-Bearer. All history is His-story: “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things (Isa. 45:7).” Because Jesus is the Word of God, He’s the great “I Am (Ex. 3:13, 14).” The Saviour’s name, “I Am,” identifies Him as the completeness of the Bible: “I Am the Creator of heaven and earth!” “I Am the Redeemer!” “I Am He who formed mankind!” “I Am the One who caused it!” “I Am the One responsible!” “I Am the One who sinned!” Every sinful act in this sinful world Jesus placed upon Himself so that we might have eternal life. (Compare Col. 1:26, 27)

Jesus actually became sin (2 Cor. 5:21); He had to become sin in order to bear our guilt and save us from the result of sin. Since Jesus actually took all of our sins, we are completely free of our sins ---- However, if we continue to sin, we’re hanging onto our sins and they will destroy us because we become identified with them. All who refuse to GIVE UP their sins to the sin-Bearer, because they continue in them, Jesus must GIVE UP to bear their own sins unto “The Second Death.” (Rev. 20:6, 14; 21:8) This is the eternal death of the final judgment: “And as it is appointed unto men * once to die, but after this the Judgment (Heb. 9:27).” Sinners destroy themselves when God “Gives them up” to do their hearts desire. So, the death Jesus saves us from is the “Second Death.” Apart from Christ, this destruction is unavoidable. Like the natural law of gravitation, there is a natural “law of sin and death (Rom. 8:2).” Sin can not exist without sinners, and sinners can not exist on their own! They have no merit of their own to survive, but we survive only by the merit of Jesus Christ! Since death is the natural result of sin, it comes not from the Creator. If death came from the Creator it would make Him synonymous with sin. But, no, the Creator never made a mistake that He has to be erased. Free will is never a mistake.

* This first death is the natural death humans die. Jesus called this death “a sleep,” John 11:11-14, Luke 8:52-54. Paul concurred: 1 Cor. 15:16-18.

We must prepare to welcome Jesus.

[BobRyan]

My reason for the quote below is not to convince Robert - but rather it is for Lutz13 since Lutz has already agreed to Ellen White being an inspired prophet.

Quote:

Great Controversy - 673

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething 673

lake of fire. It is the time of the judgement and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit.

His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

Quote:

EW 294

The Second Death

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together.

I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but

295

also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!"

{EW 294.2}

Said the angel, "Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe." I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. Again I looked and saw the earth purified. There was not a single sign of the curse. The broken, uneven surface of the earth now looked like a level, extensive plain.

Were I discussing this with Robert I would use the same approach that I use with all Christians that reject the key points of the 28 Fundamental beliefs --- "sola scriptura".

in Christ,

Bob

[Guest William Olson]

Continuing:

We inherited a sinful nature from our first parents in Eden. If you have any doubt about that, all you have to do is look at the history of this world. And pride is one of the diabolical culprits infecting us. It’s our pride that makes it impossible for us to understand, much less accept, this message by argument. We just don’t like being wrong, that’s our human nature. But our senseless pride must give way to the Holy Spirit; we must give up our devilish conceit and receive Godly humility: “Take My yoke upon you (Jesus said), and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls (Matt 11:29).” We must become meek and teachable like a little child sitting upon the lap of Jesus who said, “Verily I say unto you, except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven (Matt. 18:3).” (Compare Pro. 11:2, 15:32 and 16:18)

Although Jesus the Creator is the opposite of Satan the destroyer, many argue that Jesus does, in curtain situations, destroy. Continuing with the question, does God destroy, let’s refresh our memory: Jesus is the Word of God, John 1:1, 14, Rev. 19:13 and John 5:39. The Bible, too, is the “Word of God.” Since Jesus and the Holy Bible are the Word of God, every word in the Bible applies to Him. Everything good, and everything evil, were imputed upon Jesus, because He was made to be sin for us (2 Cor. 5:21) ---- He is the sin-Bearer! “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things (Isa. 45:7).”

Saul, the first king of Israel, is a good example of how Jesus, the sin-Bearer, placed all sins upon Himself “Before the foundation of the world.” Before King Saul sinned by killing himself (1 Chron. 10:4), the Saviour had placed Saul’s sin upon Himself ---- “Before the foundation of the world.” This is why 1 Chron. 10:14 says, “He (Jesus) slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.” That sin Saul committed was placed upon Christ’s dedicated head, because all sins were placed upon Him (Isa. 53:6).

Let’s stay with King Saul a little longer. Was God pleased when the elders of Israel demanded a king, “Like all the nations?” No, for God told Samuel: “Hearken unto the…people…for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them (1 Sam. 8:4-7).” Now, with this in mind, let’s turn to Hos. 13:11 where Jesus declared: “I gave thee a king (King Saul) in Mine anger, and took him away in My wrath.” The Word of God just told us that Saul suffered “the wrath of God” when he committed suicide. Saul brought upon himself God’s wrath when he totally rejected his Saviour by hardening his heart against Him. Since Jesus never forces anyone to accept Him, He had no choice but give Saul up to his own ways, his own desires: “Be not deceived; God is not mocked: For whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap (Gal. 6:7).” When King Saul killed himself, Jesus, before the foundation of the world (1 Pet. 1:18-20), had placed that sin upon Himself. Now listen very carefully, this is not a sham, this is not a pretend act, Jesus ACTUALLY placed that sin upon Himself, because He said it: “God is not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent: Hath He said, and shall He not do it? Or hath He spoken, and shall He not make it good (Num. 23:19)?” Jesus is our sin-Bearer. That’s His character, His glory, that’s who He is: “For He is the propitiation (atoning sacrifice) for our sins: And not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).” Because of His righteousness, it’s as natural for God to take our sins upon Himself, as it is for us, because of our unrighteousness, to do them! Now, since Jesus ACTUALLY placed Saul’s sin of committing suicide upon Himself, did He ACTUALLY kill Saul? No, God forbid!

By keeping our eyes upon Jesus, we are preparing for His soon return.