Worship the Creator not the destroyer

[Robert]

Brother, your agression makes it very hard to receive anything from you. :-)

Twilight.

Please don't start the self-righteous stuff....

Thanks ahead of time,

Rob

[Robert]

"sola scriptura"

2 Thess 2:3 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first [apostasy from the true gospel], and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains [God] will do so until he [the man of sin] is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and deceptive wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth [Jesus], that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Let no one deceive you? Well, God or Satan?

1] "the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and deceptive wonders"

or

2] "for this reason God will send them strong delusion"

Who is doing the deceiving? Titus 1:2 states God can't lie. Deception...delusion is a lie.

Well, that leaves Satan doesn't it? Then why did God say He does it? Yes? Cat got your tongues???? teehe

[Lutz13]

Quote:

My reason for the quote below is not to convince Robert - but rather it is for Lutz13 since Lutz has already agreed to Ellen White being an inspired prophet.

Brother, I do not think what she saw was literal. I do not think we are seeing its true meaning. She makes many other statements that gives me evidence to believe that our Creator is being accused of having attributes of Satan.

Quote:

The understand of the people of God has been blinded, for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. Our good and gracious Lord has been presented before the people clothed in the attributes of Satan,and men and women who have been seeking for truth, have so long regarded God in a false light that it is difficult to dispel the cloud that obscured His glory for their view.---1 Selected Messages 355

Quote:

It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misrepresented and misunderstood. At this time, a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in it power. HIS CHARACTER is to be made known...Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, 'Behold You God'. The last rays of merciful light, THE LAST MESSAGE OF MERCY to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.---COL 415

Quote:

The earth was dark though misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of Gods government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of love of God could make it known.---DA 21,22

From this statement here, she says Christs character will be manifested in contrast to that of Satan's. They will not share their characteristics. One has the Creator title who gives and never takes(love). The other has the destroyer title, who takes instead of gives(hate,self love).

She also makes it very clear that God never uses force. So let me ask you. Destroying people because they do not follow you. Isn't that using force? Is that love? Isn't destruction the attributes of Satan?

I am not sure how people are ok with the several contradictions in the bible. Or even Sister Whites writings. It wasn't until I learned of this message that brought a "AHHH I GET IT!!!" Nothing is contradicting. If something isn't making sense, then we are missing puzzle pieces and we should keep searching.

What is from Satan is, he wants the world to fear God. To believe that if they do not worship Him they will get tossed into a fiery furnace. This cloud of darkness across the world is Satan blinding men from seeing the true Character of God.

[Lutz13]

Let me give a couple...

We are all familiar with Abraham being tempted by "God". Yet what does the word of God say about temptation?

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." -James 1:13

Clearly this says God did not tempt Abraham. If you think He did, then please explain the contradiction.

The man who carried sticks on the sabbath. When "Gods" counsel was asked, "the Lord said, this man must surely be put to death"...

When the adulterous woman was brought to Jesus, what was his response? "Those among you without sin, cast the first stone at her."

Just so we can hear both sides to this story, please explain why there is such a contradiction.

Exodus 15:3..."The Lord is a man of war, the Lord is his name"...What?

Joshua 8:2 "And you shall do to Ai and its king as you did to Jericho and its king. Only its spoil and it cattle you shall take as booty for yourselves. Lay an ambush for the city behind it."

"Thou shall not steal" "Thou shall not kill"..."If you love me, keep my commandments"

When I read Joshua I read and understand as..."Go in and kill everyone. Steal their items for yourselves." "Go in and break my commandments, we will over look it this time."....What?!

Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. When Jesus came He said, He didn't come to destroy mens lives, but to save men! He has been trying since the foundation of the world. Sadly we tell Him to get lost. So we reap what we sow.

[Robert]

The man who carried sticks on the sabbath. When "Gods" counsel was asked, "the Lord said, this man must surely be put to death"...

When the adulterous woman was brought to Jesus, what was his response? "Those among you without sin, cast the first stone at her."

I can explain this one. The first quote is Old Covenant, the second is NC. Let me explain. Go to John 8:3

The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law, Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?"

Please note the language: "In the law, Moses commanded us to stone such...." Can we find this? Yes:

Lev 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death."

Why? The Israelites, while in Egyptian bondage, were raised among the pagan religions of that day. According to EGW all false religions are based on salvation by works and appeasing an angry God.

In order to break Israel of their legalistic attitudes God introduced the OC. What are the terms of the OC? Again, EGW has it right:

The terms of the “old covenant” were, Obey and live: “If a man do, he shall even live in them” (Eze. 20:11; Lev. 18:5); but “cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them.” Deut. 27:26

And Paul confirms this: "For as many as are of the works of the law [salvation by one's works] are under the curse; [why?] for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."

We are born egocentric...we are born proud. Mankind is by nature legalistic. He thinks he can save himself. Hence the giving of the OC was to break Israel of this heresy. How did God do it? By giving them the law. What was their response? Was it, "We can't keep all those rules"? No! It was "all the Lord has said we will do". In other words they said, You give us your law and we will keep. In return you owe us eternal life. So God entered that agreement with them, which was "obey and live, disobey and die."

So when the man caught gathering firewood on the Sabbath was brought before the judges, God pointed to the demands of the law. After all they didn't need God, they were under law. That's why God responded the way He did.

[Lutz13]

I do not know who wrote this. But it pretty much sums up everything.

Quote:

"There will ever remain questions and apparent contradictions which we must leave with our heavenly Father, but looking unto Jesus and the cross of Calvary, we can safely resolve every apparent contradiction in favor of God's expressed character, rather than in favor of Satan's allegations against Him! Satan has tried to prove that God is both a liar and a destroyer. Jesus came to disprove both accusations by His own life and instruction." ---Unknown...

I will not continue to argue this topic. By arguing I would be giving myself an attribute of Satan. I would be lying if I said it didn't bother me to see people worship a killer god. There is no reason to be ignorant today. Just like God gives everyone a freewill to believe what they want. I should follow His counsel and leave you with what I have.

I have presented my evidence, it is up to the individual person to investigate it and draw their own conclusions. All I can suggest is, pray and study the wrath of God.

Quote:

"Multitude have a wrong conception of God and His attributes, and are as truly serving a false God as were the worshippers of Baal."---Prophets and Kings 177

[Twilight]

Let us look at it this way.

Moses.

Jesus plainly stated that He was "that I AM", with His own words.

So we know that Moses was communing with Jesus.

We know that it was God that was revealed to Moses on the mount, because of the expressed character.

We know that it was Jesus that appeared as the Shekinah glory.

We know that it was Jesus that was hidden in the cloud and fire that led Egypt.

Now we know all these things as plain facts.

Then we see the LORD expressely passing judgement on the man who gathered sticks on the Sabbath day.

The bible is very specific.

Now I would imagine by now that two points could be established.

1. Moses knew God personally, so would not be deceived about Gods identity.

2. God would not allow Moses to be deceived as to think that he was talking to God, when in fact he was talking to satan.

So we cannot just use "anything bad, satan did it", when we have clear examples of things that God ordered that go against our perceived ideas of what God should be.

To be continued.....

Twilight

[Twilight]

The next point is simple.

God has the express right to give and take life.

He is the Creator.

The fundamental argument here is that God cannot "kill" because of the commandments.

Yet those are rules that are for men.

So I present this argument for your perusal:

Only the Creator has the express right to remove life, because He owns it.

Anyone else doing that is taking that right of decision away from God and therefore sins.

That is the only view I can find that does not require me to rewrite the plain utterances of the bible.

Like I said, I am open to new thoughts, but please, for those that support the view that God does not destroy, can you show this from Gods Word.

I get very "nervous" when we start to "change" the plain meaning of scripture to support our "doctrine".

God bless,

Twilight

[Twilight]

Lutz :-)

I personally am not asking you to "argue" this topic, but rather discuss it with you.

I am interested in your views, but they have to be open to challenge and questioning.

God bless,

Twilight

[True-believer]

The question in this thread was:

Worship the Creator not the destroyer.....

Well, I am planning to worship the Creator and not the dstroyer.

Happy Sabbath everyone---stay focused on Jesus Christ.

[Robert]

Then we see the LORD expressely passing judgement on the man who gathered sticks on the Sabbath day.

I don't think you see the big picture here. The Jews choose "law" instead of God's grace. The law says "obey and live, disobey and die." Since this man was under law he had to die.

[True-believer]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Then we see the LORD expressely passing judgement on the man who gathered sticks on the Sabbath day.

I don't think you see the big picture here. The Jews choose "law" instead of God's grace. The law says "obey and live, disobey and die." Since this man was under law he had to die.

What do you mean Robert???

That this man was under law, so he had to die???

[Twilight]

I think the danger here is this idea:

"Now the bible says God did this, but I think satan did it."

"Now, did God do this or satan, that was satan, but that must have been God, but that was definitely satan, or was it God?"

It undermines scripture and allows for "personal" twisting of every story.

My point about Moses illustrates this.

Jesus was clearly dealing with Moses.

Yet now we have a situation where we can say that Jesus was talking to him here, but satan here, but Moses didn't know.

God bless,

Twilight

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Then we see the LORD expressely passing judgement on the man who gathered sticks on the Sabbath day.

I don't think you see the big picture here. The Jews choose "law" instead of God's grace. The law says "obey and live, disobey and die." Since this man was under law he had to die.

But was it the LORD that expressely commanded the death penalty?

Num 15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

Yes it was.

Twilight

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Robert

I don't think you see the big picture here. The Jews choose "law" instead of God's grace. The law says "obey and live' date=' disobey and die." Since this man was under law he had to die.

[/quote']

But was it the LORD that expressely commanded the death penalty?

Num 15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

Yes it was.

Twilight

Next question:

Did the Isrealites sin by obeying Gods express command to take life?

No.

Because God can require that off of any individual, He has that right and does not sin by requiring it.

Twilight

[Robert]

The next point is simple.

God has the express right to give and take life.

[True-believer]

I think the danger here is this idea:

"Now the bible says God did this, but I think satan did it."

"Now, did God do this or satan, that was satan, but that must have been God, but that was definitely satan, or was it God?"

Twilight

This is very confusing Twilight...

Where are you getting your information from???

Can you please make it more simple??? It would help me a lot... Thankyou.

[True-believer]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

The next point is simple.

God has the express right to give and take life.

Then God breaks His own law. God is not above the law! This is simple for those who have eyes. The Bible says, "God is agape" and that "agape is the fulfillment of the law." Since God and agape are the same we have "God is the fulfillment of the law." Included in that law is the commandment "you shall not kill". Hence God cannot kill.

Quote:

He is the Creator.

Yes, but not the destroyer.

Quote:

Yet those are rules that are for men.

This BS will turn believers in to hardcore atheist. We have too many folks thinking that they are above the law while everyone else aren't. This is human thinking and it is perverted. Re-think your position....

Quote:

I get very "nervous" when we start to "change" the plain meaning of scripture to support our "doctrine".

You mean you get nervous when folks shake your foundation of any angry, vengeful God?

Thanks Robert...

This does make sense... Praise God.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

I don't think you see the big picture here. The Jews choose "law" instead of God's grace. The law says "obey and live' date=' disobey and die." Since this man was under law he had to die.

[/quote']

What do you mean Robert???

That this man was under law, so he had to die???

The law was never...let me repeat that...the law was never given as a means of salvation. The law was given to make matters worse - i.e., to turn sin into transgressions. Before you didn't know you were a sinner, but when the law was given now matters were worse; now you knew you were a sinner. So the law was given to turn mankind to Christ that they might be justified by faith. Read Gal chapter 3.

The Jews, because of their legalistic upbringing in the pagan religions, entered into the Old Covenant with God. The OC is simple: The law says you obey me and you can live, but if you fail even in one point you must die. The Jews choose law. This is unbelief. They refused to enter God's rest - salvation in Christ. They lived under law. So when they sinned they had to die. That was their choice. They knew the consequences, yet in their legalistic, self-righteous pride they reject God's grace and desired to be ruled under the law. Hence the law was their ruler. So when the man breaking the Sabbath was caught He had no choice but to demand that the Judges follow the law.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

I don't think you see the big picture here. The Jews choose "law" instead of God's grace. The law says "obey and live' date=' disobey and die." Since this man was under law he had to die.

[/quote']

But was it the LORD that expressely commanded the death penalty?

Num 15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

No, the law demanded death. All Israel entered that agreement because of their pride and unbelief. They didn't need Christ and His righteousness.

[Robert]

Did the Isrealites sin by obeying Gods express command to take life?

Hey, earth to the Twilight! Wake up!!!! Again (I think you are half asleep), the Jews demanded law. They wanted to be under the law...they wanted to be ruled by law (much like many SDA). They rejected their need of Christ's righteousness. Hence God was speaking for the law. Essentially God was saying, "YOu wanted law and the law says you must die."

As to did the Jews sin? They sinned when they entered the OC. That in itself was an act of unbelief. So they were in a state of sin and condemnation. What the Jews should have said is "God, we don't want to be ruled by law because we are sinful and fallen. We desire your love and grace, but they didn't. Hence the law was their master and the law requires the death of the sinner. You sin, you must die. That was God's point.

[Robert]

Because God can require that of any individual, He has that right and does not sin by requiring it.

Twilight

Hey...I've got some bad news....God just told me to "utterly destroy you and your whole family." He said, "Kill'm all, men, women and infants even the family pets." Sorry, I don't mean anything personal I just need to obey God, huh? I'm sure you understand!

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I think the danger here is this idea:

"Now the bible says God did this, but I think satan did it."

"Now, did God do this or satan, that was satan, but that must have been God, but that was definitely satan, or was it God?"

Twilight

This is very confusing Twilight...

Where are you getting your information from???

Can you please make it more simple??? It would help me a lot... Thankyou.

Hello :-)

If we start ignoring what the plain scripture states and trying to decide what is the enemies work and what is God's then we are on dangerous ground.

You see, we have to start from a position of:

This is the truth!

Then make the bible bend to that.

That is not correct theology.

We should come to the bible and let it "interpret itself".

So the point I was making, is that some say that God does not take life.

But Moses was clearly dealing with Jesus all along, through the exodus and wilderness.

Yet there are some acts and decisions of God that go against the teaching presented here, by those that say God does not take life.

Then why did He order the Hebrew to be stoned for picking up sticks on the Sabbath?

That is my point, hope I have made it clearer?

Twilight

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

No, the law demanded death. All Israel entered that agreement because of their pride and unbelief. They didn't need Christ and His righteousness.

Who was it that ordered the death sentance against the Isrealite for picking up sticks Robert?

Twilight

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Did the Isrealites sin by obeying Gods express command to take life?

Hey, earth to the Twilight! Wake up!!!! Again (I think you are half asleep), the Jews demanded law. They wanted to be under the law...they wanted to be ruled by law (much like many SDA). They rejected their need of Christ's righteousness. Hence God was speaking for the law. Essentially God was saying, "YOu wanted law and the law says you must die."

As to did the Jews sin? They sinned when they entered the OC. That in itself was an act of unbelief. So they were in a state of sin and condemnation. What the Jews should have said is "God, we don't want to be ruled by law because we are sinful and fallen. We desire your love and grace, but they didn't. Hence the law was their master and the law requires the death of the sinner. You sin, you must die. That was God's point.

I can only speak for myself, but I want the Law fulfilled in my life and in my Character, I want to be like Jesus.

But that is another topic I suspect. :-)

Twilight