Twilight Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Originally Posted By: Twilight Victory over sin is a simple process, not easy, but simple when we understand it. Tell us, how are you without sin since it is an easy thing to be selfless (not to think of self)? Again Robert, you try to redefine what I have said... Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert Tell us, how are you without sin since it is an easy thing to be selfless (not to think of self)? [/quote'] Again Robert, you try to redefine what I have said... No, it was you that said it was easy....Christ's sweat was mixed with blood in fighting against our nature. Hence, "Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin" Heb 12:24 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewart (SDA) Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Originally Posted By: Twilight Victory over sin is a simple process, not easy, but simple when we understand it. Tell us, how are you without sin since it is an easy thing to be selfless (not to think of self)? Galatians 5:16-17 is one place that talks about victory over temptation and sin. "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that you cannot do the things that you would." The assurance offered to every Christian here, is that if we are walking in the Spirit, we shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. And, if we are walking in the Spirit, the Bible tells us plainly -- we "cannot" do the things that we are tempted to do. This, to me, is one of the great texts of Scripture that speaks about victory over sin. ____________________ In my view, these verses in Galatians have a clear, strong link, to Romans 8:1. "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1) If we are indeed walking after the Spirit, we are under no condemnation. The reason for this, just as Galatians 5 says, is that if we are walking after the Spirit we "cannot" succumb to temptation. To sin, the Christian must abandon following after the Spirit and go back to walking (i.e. living) according to the flesh again. ____________ Stewart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutz13 Posted June 10, 2009 Author Share Posted June 10, 2009 Quote: You are wrestling in the wrong place my friend :-) That is why you are struggling and failing. Victory over sin is a simple process, not easy, but simple when we understand it. I did try to post on this before but the thread was hijacked. Yeah I know. Simple in thought, but not so easy. I keep hanging on, and when I think I let go, in reality, I haven't yet. God gave me victory over smoking, and applying that to my other sins that I covet is not so easy for some reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Quote: I still struggle with this. I was taught that I should not be assured of my salvation. I bang my head against my desk at times(not literally) because I can't seem to keep the law and fall face first into the ground any time I try. Yet I know that no matter how hard I try, I will never be able to do such. It is only done through Christ, yet I keep trying and I do not know how to stop! This battle with self is getting irritating. Tis true when we look at the requirements of the Law and ourselves that it is very discouraging, indeed. But I would like to encourage you, Lutz, to spend your time with Jesus. When I spend time in His Word, I feel at peace and close to Him. Cling to those Scripture promises that provide hope, and if need be, bring them up to God in prayer, petitioning Him with a "You said..." If in faith you can believe those promises, you will find faith and rest for your soul. You will rest knowing that Jesus' sacrifice, His merits and shed blood, covers you. When the Lord changes your heart, it will not be a struggle to walk with Him. You will WANT to walk with the One who is your best Friend. I regret that so many of these threads focus so much on people's selves, when God has graciously given us the remedy. Let us praise Him for His mighty acts, as the Scripture says! Hello Gail :-) Have you ever considered that it is through the "merits" of Christ's offered blood that we also gain sanctification? God bless, Mark Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Originally Posted By: Twilight No, it was you that said it was easy....Christ's sweat was mixed with blood in fighting against our nature. Hence, "Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin" Heb 12:24 I said: Victory over sin is a simple process, not easy, but simple when we understand it. You said: No, it was you that said it was easy.... So here is what I said: Victory over sin is a simple process, Not easy but simple when we understand it. Key points. The process of victory over sin is simple. Victory over sin is not easy. Simple to understand when it is given to us to grasp. Do you see how you have misquoted me Robert? Mark Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert Tell us, how are you without sin since it is an easy thing to be selfless (not to think of self)? [/quote'] Galatians 5:16-17 is one place that talks about victory over temptation and sin. "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that you cannot do the things that you would." The assurance offered to every Christian here, is that if we are walking in the Spirit, we shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. And, if we are walking in the Spirit, the Bible tells us plainly -- we "cannot" do the things that we are tempted to do. This, to me, is one of the great texts of Scripture that speaks about victory over sin. ____________________ In my view, these verses in Galatians have a clear, strong link, to Romans 8:1. "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1) If we are indeed walking after the Spirit, we are under no condemnation. The reason for this, just as Galatians 5 says, is that if we are walking after the Spirit we "cannot" succumb to temptation. To sin, the Christian must abandon following after the Spirit and go back to walking (i.e. living) according to the flesh again. ____________ Stewart. Which is why it is vital for us to learn how to be led by the Spirit and the conditions that leading is supplied through. Mark Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Quote: You are wrestling in the wrong place my friend :-) That is why you are struggling and failing. Victory over sin is a simple process, not easy, but simple when we understand it. I did try to post on this before but the thread was hijacked. Yeah I know. Simple in thought, but not so easy. I keep hanging on, and when I think I let go, in reality, I haven't yet. God gave me victory over smoking, and applying that to my other sins that I covet is not so easy for some reason. God used the same method with me. You can have victory over sin Lutz. But we have to understand the process and reasons "why" we can have victory over sin. Mark :-) Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. The assurance offered to every Christian here, is that if we are walking in the Spirit, we shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. And, if we are walking in the Spirit, the Bible tells us plainly -- we "cannot" do the things that we are tempted to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Do you see how you have misquoted me Robert? Mark No.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Lutz clearly understood what I was saying, why not read his post? That may help you to see where you misquoted/misunderstood what I said. Mark Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutz13 Posted June 10, 2009 Author Share Posted June 10, 2009 Thanks for the encouragement guys. I have been struggling with a lot of things lately, and it is truly getting to me. I am at the point where I almost do not care anymore, and will keep looking for God no matter what. Even when I do the things I will not to do. Whatever, I will keep going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Thanks for the encouragement guys. I have been struggling with a lot of things lately, and it is truly getting to me. I am at the point where I almost do not care anymore, and will keep looking for God no matter what. Even when I do the things I will not to do. Whatever, I will keep going. You can have victory Lutz, I have replied on the other thread and can show you biblically how this is achieved. No arguments, pure bible. I will answer a little at a time so as not to rush it, but God has shown me this, I was in the place you are now expressing, but have been delivered. I do not have total victory yet, but my victories are growing and increasing continually... Mark :-) Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 10, 2009 Moderators Share Posted June 10, 2009 Quote: Your first error is the translation you quoted. That phrase, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" has been added. Most like by Roman Catholic influence. Here's how it actually reads: Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 1] You are "in Christ" by God's doing: "It [salvation] is because of him [God the Father] that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption." (1 Cor 1:30) You accepted this by faith. While that phrase may have been added in verse one, it is found in verse 4. Quote: 2] The context of Romans 8:1 is based on the man of Romans 7. He is struggling with the flesh and is losing. He hasn't learned how to begin to walk in the Spirit. He is relying on his converted mind to defeat his nature and so he meets with defeat. Is there any condemnation for such a person. No! But, when you add "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" you completely wipe out the assurance found "in Christ". That's of the devil.... I see that you are still under the delusion that the man of Rom 7 is the experience of believers who are truly saved. The man of Rom 7 is "captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members." He is a "wretched man" who is in need of deliverance. That's why he asks, "Who will deliver me from this body of death?" Truly born again Christians who no longer walk after the flesh but after the Spirit are neither captives to the law of sin & death nor are they wretched. They are rejoicing in the hope of the glory of God! In whom is the righteousness of the law fulfilled? Imputed and imparted? "For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh could not do. By sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, IN ORDER THAT THE RIGHTEOUS REQUIREMENTS OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US, WHO WALK NOT ACCORDING TO THE FLESH BUT ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT." Rom 8:3-4 ESV. No walking after the Spirit = no imputation of righteousness in our account. It's as simple as that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 No walking after the Spirit = no imputation of righteousness in our account. It's as simple as that. Amen. :-) Some people do not realise that Justification can be lost... Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Quote: Some people do not realise that Justification can be lost... It is a done deal. It can't be lost. But you can refuse it if you tell God clearly that you no longer desire it. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewart (SDA) Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Quoting Robert: "This is terrible....Just flat out disgusting theology. It's typical, traditional, legalistic Adventists theology and needs to be vehemently opposed. Your first error is the translation you quoted. That phrase, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" has been added. Most like by Roman Catholic influence. Here's how it actually reads: Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 1] You are "in Christ" by God's doing: "It [salvation] is because of him [God the Father] that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption." (1 Cor 1:30) You accepted this by faith. 2] The context of Romans 8:1 is based on the man of Romans 7. He is struggling with the flesh and is losing. He hasn't learned how to begin to walk in the Spirit. He is relying on his converted mind to defeat his nature and so he meets with defeat. Is there any condemnation for such a person. No! But, when you add "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" you completely wipe out the assurance found "in Christ". That's of the devil.... End Quote. ______________________ Thankyou Robert. I do find your response interesting. I do not have my books with me, as I come to an internet cafe to log on to this site. But I would like to look more closely at the thoughts you've presented here. Yet your point #2 does surprise me. The man of Romans 7 is not under condemnation? Even though he knows what is right, and he wants to do it, but he finds that he can't do it because he is sold into the slavery of sin? In my view this is Paul reflecting on his condition BEFORE he became a Christian. In that state I believe that he was very much under the condemnation of God, and that he felt it keenly. "Oh wretched man that I am..!" _________ Stewart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Quote: Your first error is the translation you quoted. That phrase, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" has been added. Most like by Roman Catholic influence. Here's how it actually reads: Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Yes, but there it's in a different context which makes all the difference in the world Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 No walking after the Spirit = no imputation of righteousness in our account. It's as simple as that. Amen. :-) Some people do not realise that Justification can be lost... Though legalism....Read Gal 5:4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 I see that you are still under the delusion that the man of Rom 7 is the experience of believers who are truly saved. The man of Rom 7 is "captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members." Are you free from the love of self? No, you cherish it...you call it good and holy. Now who is deceived? Anyway, the man of Romans is saved and converted. He hasn't learned to allow the Spirit to have his nature when tempted. He is trying to defeat the flesh with "the law of my mind" (his will power). Nevertheless, he is converted. How so? 18.... For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. ....22 For in my inner being (inner man/inward man - which Paul always uses to define a believer) I delight in God's law Here are the facts: 1] The man of ROmans 7 desires to do good...he delights in God's law according to the law written on the heart (inner man). 2] Unbelievers do not delight in God's law of love. Why? Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind [the unbelievers mind] is enmity against God (it hates God's agape for it love selfishness) : for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. The unbeliever does not "desire to do good"....it does not "delight in God's law. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 (SDA)]I do find your response interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewart (SDA) Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 ... 18.... For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. ....22 For in my inner being (inner man/inward man - which Paul always uses to define a believer) I delight in God's law Here are the facts: 1] The man of Romans 7 desires to do good...he delights in God's law according to the law written on the heart (inner man). 2] Unbelievers do not delight in God's law of love. Why? Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind [the unbelievers mind] is enmity against God (it hates God's agape for it love selfishness) : for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. The unbeliever does not "desire to do good"....it does not "delight in God's law. Rob I must differ with you on this Robert. In my view the Romans 7:22 term, "inward man", referrs to his conscience. "...For I delight in the law of God after the inward man" (7:22) Isn't Paul acknowledging the beauty and the righteousness of God's moral law? Yet his problem was that he couldn't find a way to live in accordance with it? And yes, as a Pharisee of the Pharisees, Paul saw himself as "blameless". But isn't this what Paul refers to when he says, "For I was alive without the law once..." (Rom 7:9) And at that time, wasn't Paul (in his Pharisaical pomp) among the "whole" who felt no need of the Physician (Matt 9:11-12)? In that "blameless" state he was certainly among those who felt no need of Christ. He was "once" whole, He was "once" alive, entirely satisfied (but spiritually blinded) with his self-righteousness. But when the Spirit brought the law home to him (to his inward man/ his awakened conscience), then his great struggle began. He saw now that he was dead in sins and trespass, and far from the "blameless" man he thought he was. "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came [home to me], sin revived, and I died." (Rom 7:9) When he saw the Law of God in it's true spiritual nature, Paul was unsettled and troubled... He says, "the law worketh wrath" (Rom 4:15), and this was Paul's experience until, in his striving he entered into the "straight gate" and found salvation. ______________________ "Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will [merely] seek to enter in, and shall not be able." (Luke 13:24) How few today enter in! How few know what it is to strive and to wrestle with God until they have gained the promised blessing! ______________________ Regards, Stewart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Poster: Twilight Quote: No walking after the Spirit = no imputation of righteousness in our account. It's as simple as that. Amen. :-) Some people do not realise that Justification can be lost... Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 I must differ with you on this Robert.In my view the Romans 7:22 term, "inward man", referrs to his conscience. In Romans 7:22 Paul makes this statement: For in my inner man I delight in God’s law. There are two things I would like to say about this verse 22. 1. First, his phrase “inward man” or “inner being” is a phrase Paul will use only to the believer. For example, let me give you a couple of incidents. Turn to 2 Corinthians 4:16 and you will find that Paul is talking here about the believer when he uses that phrase “inward man” or the “inner man” or the “inner mind”: Therefore we [believers] do not lose heart. Though outwardly [i.e., the flesh, the body] we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. You see, he’s talking about the converted mind. If you turn to Ephesians 3:16, you have the same idea there. Paul will never use that phrase for the unbeliever, he will use it only for the believer. Ephesians 3:16: I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you [i.e., the Christians of Ephesus] with power through his Spirit in your inner being.... 2. Secondly, if you look at Ephesians 2:3, Paul will tell us there that the mind and the flesh of the unbeliever are in harmony with sin: ...gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts.... That is the pre-converted man. But when it comes to the believer, his mind has been turned towards God. He has a renewed mind. And that is what the Greek word “repentance” means: a change of mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Here's the real problem....If the man of chapter 7 is under the curse (condemned) then heaven is out of reach for the struggling sinner who, in his heart, loves the principle of God's law. You see the man or Romans "delights in God's law" according to his mind/heart, but when the rubber meets the road he meets with failure in the his Christians walk. 23 but I see another law [the law or power of sin (self-love)] at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind [where he "delights in God's law] and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? [this body doomed to the grave] 25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! Would a uncoverted man give glory...give thanks to God for Jesus Christ? No! The mind controlled by the flesh has no interest in spiritual things!!! Notice also that the man of Romans 7 says "through Jesus OUR lord". "Our"? Hmmm....This again is the language of believer... But here's the sad part: The legalists among us say, "no, this man is unsaved." Okay, look at the man of Romans 7 last words: "So then, I of myself in my mind [using my converted will power] I am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. Also, keep in mind the man of Romans 7 has the spirit of the law in mind: 9 Once I was alive apart from law [apart from understanding it's spirit]; but when the commandment came [a greater understanding of the 10th), sin sprang to life and I died [he came under the curse]. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. You see Paul was brought up to believe that the law brought life. You had to keep the law and it would give you life, but if you sinned, well, you must die. And then in 14 he says, "We know that the law is spiritual" You see the commandments, "you shall not kill, steal," etc, have to do with outward acts, but the 10th commandment has to do with our thoughts. So the law requires that even our motives...our thoughts...must be free of sin. Once the man of Romans 7 realized this he saw himself a sinner. Is there any condemnation for such a believer? Romans 8:1 says no..... If you say yes, then because you are struggling also, you stand condemned and there's no hope for any of us.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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