Worship the Creator not the destroyer

[LifeHiscost]

You would have to have committed sin to be cursed enough to be put on a tree (crucified). Jesus had no sin in Him (or place on Him), therefore the reference by Paul to Jesus hanging on a tree and being cursed does not apply. To say or even imply that Jesus should be or was cursed is blasphemous.

Would you say becoming "sin" for us could be akin to being cursed. Remember, Jesus death and hanging on a cross, was for our sins, not for His. He took the penalty that was rightfully ours, that we could be the righteousness that was rightfully His.

"For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." 2 Corinthians 5:21 NKJV

Blessings!

[Robert]

"For He made Him who knew no sin [as God] to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." 2 Corinthians 5:21 NKJV

To everyone:

"Made Him...to be sin". Is this real, or pretend? Does God pretend, or did He make Him to be sin? If so, how?

Let's reverse this.....When you accepted Christ what happened? The Holy Spirit, who is the 3rd person of the Godhead, came and tabernacled in you.

Questions:

1) Did the Holy Spirit become you or did He remain Himself even though He lives in sinful flesh (you)?

2) Did you remain yourself or did the Holy Spirit make you Holy (without sin - sinless)?

3) Again, did you become God because the Holy Spirit came and dwelt in you? And did the Holy Spirit become a sinner because He came to live in you?

[LifeHiscost]

[Guest WilloMar]

When Christ became the Son of man, He, who never sinned, became one of us so that “He might destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8).” “He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).” Even though Jesus never actually sinned, He actually became sin, “That we might be made the righteousness of God in Him (2 Cor. 5:21).” Jesus our Saviour became our sin-Bearer. Without Christ, we’re doomed: “Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death (James 1:15).” Jesus, who never sinned, actually became sin to save us from the consequence of sin.

“Christ is all, and in all (Col. 3:11, and TM 433).” He is in every breathing person He came to redeem, and that includes every sinner who ever is, or was. (See Isa. 53:6 and 1 John 2:2). John 1:1 and 14: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” “And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father) full of grace and truth.” Jesus is the Word of God who was made flesh when He became a man. Rev. 19:13 confirms this: “And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: And His name is called The Word of God.” Jesus verified this, also: “Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: And they are they which testify of me (John 5:39).” Jesus came to this earth not merely to save us, but to reveal to the whole universe the character of the true God: “For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them (Luke 9:56).”

The Bible is “The Word of God,” too. Since Jesus and the Bible are Both the Word of God, every word in the Bible, from Genesis through Revelation, applies to Him. Everything good, and everything evil, applies to the sin-Bearer. All history is His-story: “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things (Isa. 45:7).” Because Jesus is the Word of God, He’s the great “I Am (Ex. 3:13, 14).” The Saviour’s name, “I Am,” identifies Him as the completeness of the Bible: “I Am the Creator of heaven and earth!” “I Am the Redeemer!” “I Am He who formed mankind!” “I Am the One who caused it!” “I Am the One responsible!” “I Am the One who sinned!” Every sinful act in this sinful world Jesus placed upon Himself so that we might have eternal life. (Compare Col. 1:26, 27)

Jesus actually became sin (2 Cor. 5:21); He had to become sin in order to bear our guilt and save us from the result of sin. Since Jesus actually took all of our sins, we are completely free of our sins ---- However, if we continue to sin, we’re hanging onto our sins and thus, we become identified with our sins, and they will destroy us. All who refuse to GIVE UP their sins to the sin-Bearer, because they continue in them, Jesus must GIVE UP to bear them themselves. Sinners destroy themselves when God “Gives them up” to do their hearts desire. Since sin cannot exist without sinners, and sinners cannot exist because they have no merit of their own to survive, the survival of God’s people is by the merits of Jesus Christ alone! Since the death of sinners is the natural result of sin, it comes not from the Creator, because that would make Him synonymous with sin. But, no, the Creator never made a mistake that He has to be erased. And free will is never a mistake.

All sins, with no exception, “was foreordained,” to be placed upon Christ, the Lamb “Slain from the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8).” All sins were placed upon the sin-Bearer, “Who…was foreordained before the foundation of the world (1 Pet. 1:18-20).” Isa. 53:6 says, “The Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all.” It’s very important to understand that no one’s excluded! This is not a lie, or a pretended act. Jesus actually took the sins of the whole world upon Himself (1 John 2:2): “According as He hath chosen us in Him * before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love (Eph. 1:4).” In our finite minds we can’t understand how Christ, who never sinned, actually became sin: “For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin (2 Cor. 5:21, first part).” Jesus sacrificed His sinless life to be one of us. In fact, concerning righteousness and sinfulness, our Saviour reversed our positions that “We might be made the righteousness of God in Him (2 Cor. 5:21, last part).” (See 1 Pet. 2:24)

* Before the foundation of the world Christ promised His Father that He would die for the sins of the world. That was before sin entered the earth and that was why Adam and Eve didn’t die when they first sinned. Praise God: Whatever Christ says, It Is Sure! It Is Done! The Actuality Is In His Promise: “For He Spake And It Was Done (Ps. 33:9).”

Let’s hasten the Lord’s return!

[Lutz13]

When Christ became the Son of man, He, who never sinned, became one of us so that “He might destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8).” “He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).” Even though Jesus never actually sinned, He actually became sin, “That we might be made the righteousness of God in Him (2 Cor. 5:21).” Jesus our Saviour became our sin-Bearer. Without Christ, we’re doomed: “Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death (James 1:15).” Jesus, who never sinned, actually became sin to save us from the consequence of sin.

“Christ is all, and in all (Col. 3:11, and TM 433).” He is in every breathing person He came to redeem, and that includes every sinner who ever is, or was. (See Isa. 53:6 and 1 John 2:2). John 1:1 and 14: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” “And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father) full of grace and truth.” Jesus is the Word of God who was made flesh when He became a man. Rev. 19:13 confirms this: “And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: And His name is called The Word of God.” Jesus verified this, also: “Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: And they are they which testify of me (John 5:39).” Jesus came to this earth not merely to save us, but to reveal to the whole universe the character of the true God: “For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them (Luke 9:56).”

The Bible is “The Word of God,” too. Since Jesus and the Bible are Both the Word of God, every word in the Bible, from Genesis through Revelation, applies to Him. Everything good, and everything evil, applies to the sin-Bearer. All history is His-story: “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things (Isa. 45:7).” Because Jesus is the Word of God, He’s the great “I Am (Ex. 3:13, 14).” The Saviour’s name, “I Am,” identifies Him as the completeness of the Bible: “I Am the Creator of heaven and earth!” “I Am the Redeemer!” “I Am He who formed mankind!” “I Am the One who caused it!” “I Am the One responsible!” “I Am the One who sinned!” Every sinful act in this sinful world Jesus placed upon Himself so that we might have eternal life. (Compare Col. 1:26, 27)

Jesus actually became sin (2 Cor. 5:21); He had to become sin in order to bear our guilt and save us from the result of sin. Since Jesus actually took all of our sins, we are completely free of our sins ---- However, if we continue to sin, we’re hanging onto our sins and thus, we become identified with our sins, and they will destroy us. All who refuse to GIVE UP their sins to the sin-Bearer, because they continue in them, Jesus must GIVE UP to bear them themselves. Sinners destroy themselves when God “Gives them up” to do their hearts desire. Since sin cannot exist without sinners, and sinners cannot exist because they have no merit of their own to survive, the survival of God’s people is by the merits of Jesus Christ alone! Since the death of sinners is the natural result of sin, it comes not from the Creator, because that would make Him synonymous with sin. But, no, the Creator never made a mistake that He has to be erased. And free will is never a mistake.

All sins, with no exception, “was foreordained,” to be placed upon Christ, the Lamb “Slain from the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8).” All sins were placed upon the sin-Bearer, “Who…was foreordained before the foundation of the world (1 Pet. 1:18-20).” Isa. 53:6 says, “The Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all.” It’s very important to understand that no one’s excluded! This is not a lie, or a pretended act. Jesus actually took the sins of the whole world upon Himself (1 John 2:2): “According as He hath chosen us in Him * before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love (Eph. 1:4).” In our finite minds we can’t understand how Christ, who never sinned, actually became sin: “For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin (2 Cor. 5:21, first part).” Jesus sacrificed His sinless life to be one of us. In fact, concerning righteousness and sinfulness, our Saviour reversed our positions that “We might be made the righteousness of God in Him (2 Cor. 5:21, last part).” (See 1 Pet. 2:24)

* Before the foundation of the world Christ promised His Father that He would die for the sins of the world. That was before sin entered the earth and that was why Adam and Eve didn’t die when they first sinned. Praise God: Whatever Christ says, It Is Sure! It Is Done! The Actuality Is In His Promise: “For He Spake And It Was Done (Ps. 33:9).”

Let’s hasten the Lord’s return!

Amen!

[Dr. Rich]

Good questions Robert! I see alot of circular reasoning going on in the attempt to answer these questions. Either Jesus was sinful or took on sin--or not. Either the Holy Spirit will dwell with someone sinful--or not. This sounds like an argument Satan may of had (and got a third of the angels to follow him)--the good old Eastern Religion thing called the ying and the yang (sp) a little bit of sin in righteousness and a little bit of good in sinfulness. Like Buddah--everything must balance (the hands together as if in prayer) with itself. Satan said God can be the God of creation and Satan can be the god of destruction and they will all work together-side by side like. WHAT? May it never be! (Isn't this kinda like New Age?)

WilloMar, I noticed at the bottom of your comment that it said "Let's hasten the Lord's return!" Can you tell me how we can do that if there is an appointed time of the end? And, if all we need is faith, love and grace, then how come Jesus has not come already?

[LifeHiscost]

WilloMar, I noticed at the bottom of your comment that it said "Let's hasten the Lord's return!" Can you tell me how we can do that if there is an appointed time of the end? And, if all we need is faith, love and grace, then how come Jesus has not come already?

"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,

looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! "

2 Peter 3:10-12 NASB

Jesus has given a commission to His children to spread the gospel to all the world. The sooner it is accomplished, the sooner Jesus will come.

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."

Mark 16:15 KJV

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."Matthew 24:14 KJV

Blessings!

[Guest WilloMar]

“‘When the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.’ Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own.” COL 69 (See CT 324)

This is how we hasten He coming. Let's be ready!

[LifeHiscost]

“‘When the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.’ Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own.” COL 69 (See CT 324)

This is how we hasten His coming. Let's be ready!

While to be perfectly imaging Jesus may be needed to effectively hasten His coming, one needs to remember there is zero number of people giving that absolute image as to date.

"....(for there is no man that sinneth not,)"1 Kings 8:46 KJV parenthesis theirs' LHC

Therefor it would appear, it seems, more than what we now see evident must take place. I would like to suggest that Jesus is revealed when the fruit of the Spirit is revealed. Since we know, by the bible, that no single person perfectly reflects all of the fruits of the Spirit, we must find who does. Only one that I'm aware reveals all of the fruits of the Spirit. It is the bride of Christ, the church.

Therefor Jesus is not waiting for the church to get ready before He can come. He is, instead, waiting for that last person to accept the righteousness of Christ, as their only claim to the mansions Jesus has gone to prepare for us. We can hasten that event by being instrumental in carrying the gospel of Jesus to every kindred and tongue and nation.

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9 KJV

Blessings!

[Robert]

Why should I wrangle (debate) over what it says, just because I don't understand its' absolute meaning?

Because we are commanded, by Christ, to take this gospel to the world and then the end will come. If you don't understand it you can't present it....

[Musicman1228]

Which gospel are we to take to the world?

[Robert]

Which gospel are we to take to the world?

The truth as it is "in Christ"!

[Guest WilloMar]

Yes, at this very moment there is not one perfect person. However, that is our goal, because when probation closes for the world, there will be perfectly sinless people to welcome Jesus Christ: the 144,000 of Rev. 14:1. They must be perfect to be able to stand with the Almighty God without Jesus mediatng between Him and them. This is what we must be striving for -- Now. So, the question is, What is Jesus like so we can become like Him? Rev. 14:12 tells us because that will be the character of the 144,000 who will be translated at Christ's Arrival!

Let's prepare for Him!

[Dr. Rich]

Didn't Jesus say it is the gospel of [about] the Kingdom of Heaven?

[LifeHiscost]

Didn't Jesus say it is the gospel of [about] the Kingdom of Heaven?

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."Matthew 24:14 KJV

I would say yes. Included would be this good news.

"He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels."Revelation 3:5 NKJV

The white garments are symbolic of the righteousness of Jesus, something that will be a characteristic of those who are "in Christ" and those also who are numbered as among the 144,000.

"...that no flesh should glory in His presence. But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the LORD.”"1 Corinthians 1:29-31 NKJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

Why should I wrangle (debate) over what it says, just because I don't understand its' absolute meaning?

Because we are commanded, by Christ, to take this gospel to the world and then the end will come. If you don't understand it you can't present it....

In case you haven't noticed in the years you've been on CA, Robert, wrangling (debate)usually brings no one closer to Jesus. It may establish a person in what they already believe, whether righteousness or error. I don't wish to limit God in His ability to make a miracle of anything, to draw one to Himself. However, usually when Jesus met any who came before Him with their minds already made up, He remained silent.

"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city,And contentions are like the bars of a citadel." Proverbs 18:19 NASB

"You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart."Jeremiah 29:13 NIV

Blessings!

[Dr. Rich]

Would you like me to point out that EGW said that if we are not agitating then we are not doing the will of God. In fact she once said we must “agitate, agitate, AGITATE!” Now I don’t believe everything she said but she did have some things to say that are interesting. After all, how does one get refined gold without doing the refining?

[John317]

.... it said "Let's hasten the Lord's return!" Can you tell me how we can do that if there is an appointed time of the end? And, if all we need is faith, love and grace, then how come Jesus has not come already?

God doesn't have a giant clock that must strike a certain hour in order to Christ to come.

God waits for His church to get ready for Him, then He will allow the end-time events to occur, such as the Seven Last Plagues, the Mark the Beast, etc. God doesn't allow these things to happen until His people are ready for them. Today God waits for His church to be prepared. He waits for people like you and me to be fully on one side or the other.

Notice the following verses: Rev. 19: 7, 8; 2 Peter 3: 12 (KJV; NKJV; NRSV; NIV).

[John317]

Would you like me to point out that EGW said that if we are not agitating then we are not doing the will of God. In fact she once said we must “agitate, agitate, AGITATE!” Now I don’t believe everything she said but she did have some things to say that are interesting. After all, how does one get refined gold without doing the refining?

As with the Scriptures, we need to take everything on a particular topic into consideration.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Because we are commanded, by Christ, to take this gospel to the world and then the end will come. If you don't understand it you can't present it.... [/quote']

In case you haven't noticed in the years you've been on CA, Robert, wrangling (debate)usually brings no one closer to Jesus.

And that's because folks refuse the gospel....

[John317]

It's in the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy, but don't just take my word for it ---- STUDY IT OUT FOR YOURSELF! Ok, this is a clue, we are told that probation closes for the church BEFORE it closes for the world. Can't you see that that time is just before us?

You appear to believe that it was not God who gave the ceremonial law and the sacrifices to the Hebrews, yet the Spirit of Prophecy teaches clearly that it was Christ Himself who instituted the sacrificial system, and gave it first to Adam. How can you harmonize your apparent belief in the Spirit of Prophecy with your belief that the true God did not ask the Hebrews to offer sacrifices?

Are you saying that Satan devised the sacrifices which pointed forwarded to the coming of the Messiah?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

Which gospel are we to take to the world?

The truth as it is "in Christ"!

And the truth as it is "in Christ" is?

3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected.

By this we may know that we are in him:

6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

1 Jn 2:3-6 ESV.

[oldsailor29]

And the truth as it is "in Christ" is?

3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him:

6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

1 Jn 2:3-6 ESV.

Most people read that we should keep His commandments, and then leap back into the Old Testament, to Moses. "His" refers to Jesus. The teachings of Jesus, the Gospel, are His commandments to which we are here referred. If we want to know His commandments, we need to read His teachings, not Moses. Keep on going back to Moses, and we will never learn His commandments.

[Gail]

Jesus didn't contradict God's commandments as He gave them to Moses. He expounded on them and deepened their meaning to our narrow, feeble understanding.

[oldsailor29]

Jesus didn't contradict God's commandments as He gave them to Moses. He expounded on them and deepened their meaning to our narrow, feeble understanding.

Gail - I believe if we could bring the tablets of stone, with its ten words, to Jesus, He would tell us the true interpretation, and it wouldn't be very much like Moses' interpretation. That is basically what Jesus did when He spoke to His disciples and to the people. The gospel of Jesus is His interpretation of the law. And we have written record right in the NT, that Jesus did disagree with some of the writings attributed to Moses.

Were we go wrong is following Moses instead of following Jesus. We say, "Jesus quoted from the OT," and we use that as license to do so. Yes, Jesus quoted from the OT, but he reinterpreted it as he quoted. His interpretation is the one we should follow, not our own. Jesus quoted from the OT, but we ain't Jesus. When we quote from the OT, we are likely to get it wrong, just like the pharisees did.

So why not just read and study what Jesus said, and trust in His teachings?