Worship the Creator not the destroyer

[Lutz13]

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By God destroying those wicked children, he protects the good, how is that evil?

"Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men." -Romans 12:17

"Do no be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." -Romans 12:21

"When a mans ways please the Lord, He makes even his enemies to be at peace with him." -Proverbs 16:7

I just can't agree with that statement.

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It is simple, we are the clay, He is the potter.

He has the right to destroy the clay.

I agree with you. He has a right to destroy the clay. However, it goes against His character and God doesn't change. God would have destroyed His clay called Lucifer if he ever had to destroy. Which goes back to your statement...

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]By God destroying those wicked children, he protects the good, how is that evil?

He didn't...

[Lutz13]

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The Bible talks about God's wrath and a day of God's wrath. If we were to take that hope away from the people then why should we bother believing any other promise He gives us?

Paul tells us Gods wrath is God giving people over to themselves. There are many examples of this in the bible. Don't make the mistake of comparing human wrath with Gods wrath.

[Gail]

In Hosea it talks about God "pouring out" his wrath upon Israel. That sounds more active than passive...

While I do think it is true that people left to themselves without His mercy WILL in time destroy each other, that is not what it sounds like in this instance.

[Robert]

God created all natural outcomes and set it up that way.

God is not the author of death nor sin!

[Robert]

She says God is allowed to do whatever He wants...Which yes, it is true.

Completely and utterly false! God is agape. Agape is not merely just one of many of God's attributes, it's who He is. God is love and light and in Him there is no darkness! God can no more sin then I can become God. So God cannot sin...it is impossible. The Bible states this emphatically!!!

[Robert]

The idea that God does not use men to carry out His judgments goes against scripture....

Then you misunderstand the Scriptures. As Paul states, "we see through a glass dimly." The context of that quote is found in chapter 13 of 1 Corinthians and it is "agape". We can't fully understand God's agape because of statements like we see in the OT and Revelation. But the problem is ours because we can't see clearly. Thankfully my eyes are being opened.

Rob

[Guest WilloMar]

Do you, who believe that God must destroy sinners, think that when Satan tempts us and when we get bad enough, then God must destroy us? You really don’t mean that God and Satan are partners, do you? I know I read somewhere... that... Oh, yes, here it is ---- 5T 98: “God and Satan never work in co-partnership. The testimonies either bear the signet of God or that of Satan. A good tree cannot bring forth corrupt fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. By their fruit ye shall know them. God has spoken.”

Prepare to meet your maker.

[Robert]

The Bible talks about God's wrath....

Which is "passive". God's wrath can't be compared to human wrath. "The wrath of God" is really a metaphor...just as "I am a jealousy God". If God does become jealousy...if God becomes vengeful then He too is a sinner....So we have to watch out for those metaphors!

[Robert]

At the risk of "once again stating the obvious" - Paul is not talking about "giving them up so they will pour fire and brimstone on themselves" in Sodom and Gomorah or the Lake of Fire.

It's all about consequences, huh? When Sodom and Gomorrah fully and ultimately rejected God He "gave them over" to the surrounding destruction.

"Now the Valley of Siddim was full of asphalt pits; and the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled..."

The area was highly volatile....How many decades, with God in their presence, was the blessing of protection given? I can tell you this much: when Sodom and Gomorrah fully rejected God, He retreated because love does not force itself on those who reject it. When God removed Himself trouble followed, but it wasn't God's doing....

[Robert]

And in cases like the flood, Sodom and Gomorah, Korah, Achan, the idolaters a Sinai, Annanias and Saphira, the Lake of Fire ... it is "God Himself".

False! You are placing evil attributes onto God. You are bring Him down to the level of sinful men. All because you do not understand that "God is agape"!

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

She says God is allowed to do whatever He wants...Which yes, it is true.

Completely and utterly false! God is agape. Agape is not a just one of many of God's attributes, it's who He is. God is love and light and in Him there is no darkness! God can no more sin then I can become God. So God cannot sin...it is impossible. The Bible states this emphatically!!!

That is exactly why He doesn't! He can though, but doesn't! It's not His character to do so.

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

And in cases like the flood, Sodom and Gomorah, Korah, Achan, the idolaters a Sinai, Annanias and Saphira, the Lake of Fire ... it is "God Himself".

False! You are placing evil attributes onto God. You are bring Him down to the level of sinful men. All because you do not understand that "God is agape"!

"and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man..." --Romans 1:23

I tried to understand why people refuse to believe something beautiful like this. It dawned on me. Most people want God to extract revenge on those who do them harm. They want God to blow up their enemies and those who claim there is no God. Just so they can stand on the walls and yell out "HA I TOLD YOU SO SUCKERS!" It is the carnal mind. But God said to love your enemies. Which is the opposite of our nature.

“He who does not love does not know God, for God is love” -1 John 4:8

You won't know God until you know love first, and I am not talking about human love, but agape love!

[Lutz13]

In Hosea it talks about God "pouring out" his wrath upon Israel. That sounds more active than passive...

While I do think it is true that people left to themselves without His mercy WILL in time destroy each other, that is not what it sounds like in this instance.

[Robert]

In Hosea it talks about God "pouring out" his wrath upon Israel. That sounds more active than passive...

God says, "I will strike the Shepard". Look it up....Did He? Did God kill Christ?

Well, Paul tells us that Christ became sin who (in and of Himself - i.e., deity) knew no sin. What did God do in the Garden of Gethsemane? He backed off....He abandoned Christ. Let's look at this:

Luke 22:41 He [Christ] withdrew about a stone's throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42 "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me ["the cup of the fury of his wrath" Rev]. ; yet not my will, but yours be done." ....53 Every day I [Jesus] was with you in the temple courts, and you did not lay a hand on me. But this is your hour and the power of darkness. "

How did that happen?

Let's skip up where Christ had just been whipped:

John 19:11 Then Jesus said, "You would have no power over me at all unless it were given to you from above."

Why was Jesus, who became sin for us, experiencing all this trouble?

Answer: God's passive wrath against sin!

How did this happen?

Matt 27:46 At about three o'clock, Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Now, let's go back to that OT quote, again! (Maybe this time it will stick with some of you):

"I [God] will forsake them and hide my face from them, and they will be devoured; and many evils and troubles will come upon them...."

How utterly simple, if you let go of tradition and this nonsense of a God who makes Hitler look like a choirboy.

[Robert]

Do you, ...believe that God must destroy sinners,

No! Romans 5:12 Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin , and so death spread to all men because all men sinned--

The wages of sin is death....God doesn't kill...God doesn't sin. Sin kills...Sin brings death. God is the author of life. He who has the Son has life....Outside God is death and sin. When God retreats trouble comes, but it isn't God doing these terrible things!

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Completely and utterly false! God is agape. Agape is not a just one of many of God's attributes, it's who He is. God is love and light and in Him there is no darkness! God can no more sin then I can become God. So God cannot sin...it is impossible. The Bible states this emphatically!!! [/quote']

That is exactly why He doesn't! He can though, but doesn't! It's not His character to do so.

Okay, then you get an A+

[Robert]

You won't know God until you know love first, and I am not talking about human love, but agape love!

[Robert]

God did pour out His wrath on Israel....

Matt 13:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings [protection], and you would not!

The results?

38 Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate.

What happened in 70AD? Look up your history!!!

This is so simple a caveman could understand it!

Rob

[Lutz13]

Spiritual Gifts 4A; chapter 30 ---- Fiery Serpents

“And the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, ‘We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord, and against thee; pray unto the Lord that he take away the serpents from us.’ And Moses prayed for the people. And the Lord said unto Moses, ‘Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.’ And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass he lived.” Num. 21:6-9 {4aSG 40.3}

“The murmurings of the children of Israel were unreasonable, and the unreasonable always go to extremes. They uttered falsehoods in saying that they had no bread nor water. They had both given them by a miracle of God's mercy. To punish them for their ingratitude, and complaining against God, the Lord permitted fiery serpents to bite them. They were called fiery, because their bite produced painful inflammation, and speedy death. The Israelites, up to this time, had been preserved from these serpents in the wilderness, by a continual miracle; for the wilderness through which they traveled was infested with poisonous serpents.” {4aSG 41.1}

(Sister White writes like a true prophet for her time. This book, “Spiritual Gifts,” vol. 4A, was published in 1864. She does receive more light as she progresses in her ministry. So, to which God is she referring? There are certain truths that must be remembered when dealing with which God is which. There’s a Life God, and a death god; there’s a Truth God, and a lying god; there’s a Loving God, and a hating god; there’s a Saving God, and a tempting god; etc. The truth is, the Creator God gives only good and perfect gifts, and He never changes. James 1:17. He will never alter His words. Ps. 89:34. He will never “lie,” or have to “repent.” Num. 23:19. And, “I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it...” Eccles. 3:14. Also: “When a man’s ways please the Lord, He maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him.” Pro. 16:7.)

“The Israelites were terrified, and humbled because of the serpents, and confessed their sin in murmuring. Moses was directed to erect the brazen serpent upon a pole, and if those who were bitten looked upon that they should be healed. Here the Israelites were required to do something. They must look upon the brazen serpent if they would live. Many had died by the bite of the serpents. When Moses raised the serpent upon the pole, some had no faith that merely looking at that would heal them, and they died. Mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters, were all anxiously engaged in helping their suffering, dying relatives and friends, to fix their languid eyes upon the serpent. If they could only once look while fainting and dying, they revived and were healed of all the effects of their poisonous wounds. There was no virtue in the serpent of brass to cause such a change immediately in those who looked upon it. The healing virtue received by their looking upon the serpent was derived from God alone. He chose in his wisdom this manner to display his power. It was the faith of the people in the provision made which was acceptable to God. By this simple means the people were made sensible that God had permitted these serpents to afflict them, because of their murmurings, and lack of faith in him. If they would obey God they had no reason to fear, for he would be their friend, and preserve them from dangers to which they were continually exposed in the wilderness.” {4aSG 42.1}

(The true God often takes sinful practices and brings righteousness out from them, as you’ll see in the next paragraph.)

“The brazen serpent, lifted upon a pole, illustrates the Son of God, who was to die upon the cross. The people who are suffering from the effects of sin can find hope and salvation alone in the provision God has made. As the Israelites saved their lives by looking upon the brazen serpent, so sinners can look to Christ and live. Unlike the brazen serpent, he has virtue in himself and power to heal the suffering, repenting, believing sinner. Christ says of himself, “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.” {4a SG 43}

Yes, God is able to take an idol and make something good out of it.

[Robert]

Christ is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, right?

In the Old Testament an adulterer was to be executed by stoning. Yet in the NT we see a woman caught in adultery who,

1] was guilty

2] and didn't ask forgivness

and yet Christ let's her go free. Why?

Here's the record:

John 8:3 Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him [Jesus] a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst, 4 they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say?"

6 This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear. 7 So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first." 8 And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. ...10 When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her, "Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?" 11 She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said to her, "Neither do I condemn you; go and leave this life of sin."

a] Where did she ask Christ for forgiveness?

b] Why did Christ make void the demands of the law? I mean, think about it, in the OT when one committed adultery he or she could say, "please forgive me God", but then they had to be stoned because the law says "obey and live, disobey and die".

Anyway, here goes the fun....

Rob

[oldsailor29]

What most SDAs do not believe is that Jesus fulfilled His law by restating it, the way it was supposed to be. He became the foundation and cornerstone, replacing the tablets of stone.

Did Jesus say we should stone anyone? No. So forget about stoning. Follow Jesus instead.

[Robert]

Did Jesus say we should stone anyone? No. So forget about stoning. Follow Jesus instead.

Who entered the OC with Israel?

1] God

2] Jesus

3] The Holy Spirit

Answer: 2

[oldsailor29]

Originally Posted By: oldsailor29

Did Jesus say we should stone anyone? No. So forget about stoning. Follow Jesus instead.

Who entered the OC with Israel?

1] God

2] Jesus

3] The Holy Spirit

Answer: 2

The teachings of Jesus contain all the elements of the Biblical covenants. That which was taught by Jesus is exactly what should have been taught by Moses. Jesus corrected the errors. Thereby the covenant offered by Jesus is different, and although it is what should have been, it is not, and it is therefore the new covenant and what the old covenant should have been. The new covenant is older than the old covenant, because the new covenant comes directly from Jesus, who is our creator. The old covenant came through Moses, about whom Jesus said, "Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and they are dead, but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven." Bread and manna represent teachings. Here Jesus is saying that Moses was wrong and He is right. He also said that no man can serve two masters. So we do have to choose between Moses and Jesus. I choose Jesus.

I have been SDA since the age of 2, but if my brothers and sisters wish to disfellowship me, that will be fine, I think they probably should. They have chosen Moses. This doesn't mean they won't be saved. They will be forced to get off the path they are on (Life Sketches ch xxx), which leads to nowhere. They will come to the path I am on (Life Sketches ch vii), where Jesus is the leader, clearly leading to the holy city.

[Robert]

You're not listing....

I said Jesus is the one that entered into the OC with Israel. So even today you have two covenants: the old and the new.

All unbelievers are under the old....Believers are under the new. Now some believers have sidetracked from the gospel and have entered the old covenant. This is a subtle form of legalism.

Rob

[Woody]

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You're not listing....

I think the oldsailor's boat IS 'listing'.