Pro-Abortion still on the aganda!!!

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

You keep forgetting that something even a Pastor says may not be officially speaking for the Church; and my point remains that IF this was infact said by Wilson 30 YEARS AGO there is NO WAY a connection to todays OFFICIAL CHURCH POLICY can ever be made. The desperate clutching at 30 year old snippets of conversation reflects on the quality of "evidence" you & others seem bent on promoting. It amounts to you promoting a deliberate lie. Is that good natured enough for you Sir?

Calling me a liar while offering no evidence of it other than your ignorant(in a good way)assertions stands as your chosen judgment.

And there actually is an official statement; but some here don't like it because it just does not have in it what they really want it to.

Put yo glasses on Doug. I said you were "promoting a deliberate lie." Where did I say you were a liar? The "deliberate lie" is not from you. I just told you that you were promoting it.

[Overaged]

Amen to that one Shane. When people resort to gumbo like Spectrum, which in my mind isn't even an "Adventist" magazine, then we can know the desperation of their "evidence."

[Tammy]

I don't understand your position. Please answer me these two questions?

#1. Do you or do you not believe that abortions are taking place in hospitals with the name of Seventh Day Adventist on them?

#2. If you do believe that, does that not bother you?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I'm not OA, but I will answer your questions:

1. No. I KNOW abortions of any kind are not performed in North American (one hospital in Trinidad, West Indies, may be an exception - I don't know), South American, or Australian hospitals "with the name of Seventh Day Adventist on them." I don't know if they do abortions in hospitals "with the name of Seventh Day Adventist on them" in Africa or Asia. There are only 8 hospitals in those regions "with the name Seventh Day Adventist on them."

2. Since I don't think it is true (and I'm assuming - perhaps incorrectly - that you are referring to hospitals in the United States), question #2 is moot.

But thank you for the questions.

p.s. It is foolish to ask questions in a manner designed to prove one's position, when one has not done one's research.

[Dr. Shane]

I'll answer the questions too.

1. I don't know how many, if any, abortions are performed at Adventist hospitals. However I do not want conferences, unions or divisions micromanaging our hospitals. Our denomination has an official position and one would hope that the hospitals would follow it.

2. Lots of things bother me but I cannot control every person in the world and make them live as I *think* they should. I want to see less abortions in the world but I know the way we get there is through winning hearts and minds and not through the use of coercion or force.

[BobRyan]

We are indeed blessed by the fact that the Adventist pioneers in the 1800's had the presence of mind to take a bold stand on the subject of the "value of human life" when it came to slavery.

If only we still had such clarity today. Yet to be fair the Church's official statement is to oppose abortion.

At least they appear to know it is murder.

in Christ,

Bob

[Twilight]

To me it is rather ambigous.

It seems to be saying:

We do not agree with abortion, but you should make your own mind up.

[Nic Samojluk]

Nic's research has been shown to be questionable.

[BobRyan]

First the pro-slavery view of "value of human life"

Quote:

5) Christians acknowledge as first and foremost their accountability to God. They seek balance between the exercise of individual liberty and their accountability to the faith community and the larger society and its laws. They make their choices according to scripture and the laws of God rather than the norms of society. Therefore, any attempts to coerce women either to remain pregnant or to terminate pregnancy should be rejected as infringements of personal freedom.

Slave owners would not be forced to keep slaves nor forced to set them free. Each one would decide for themselves under this new view of the value of human rights.

However it is noted that this is not morally acceptable.

Quote:

"Abortion, the intentional termination of an established pregnancy, is not morally acceptable for purposes of birth control"

http://adventist.org/beliefs/statements/main-stat44.html

And of course - the longer version

Quote:

Guidelines on Abortion

Many contemporary societies have faced conflict over the morality of abortion.*

Such conflict also has affected large numbers within Christianity who want to accept responsibility for the protection of prenatal human life while also preserving the personal liberty of women. The need for guidelines has become evident, as the Church attempts to follow scripture, and to provide moral guidance while respecting individual conscience. Seventh-day Adventists want to relate to the question of abortion in ways that reveal faith in God as the Creator and Sustainer of all life and in ways that reflect Christian responsibility and freedom. Though honest differences on the question of abortion exist among Seventh-day Adventists, the following represents an attempt to provide guidelines on a number of principles and issues. The guidelines are based on broad biblical principles that are presented for study at the end of the document.**

1) Prenatal human life is a magnificent gift of God. God's ideal for human beings affirms the sanctity of human life, in God's image, and requires respect for prenatal life. However, decisions about life must be made in the context of a fallen world. Abortion is never an action of little moral consequence. Thus prenatal life must not be thoughtlessly destroyed. Abortion should be performed only for the most serious reasons.

"serious reasons" being that the mother will not survive - or is it that the mother might be less available to take vacations?

WE will see ...

Quote:

d. calling both to be responsible for the consequences of behaviors that are inconsistent with Christian principles

...

4) The Church does not serve as conscience for individuals; however, it should provide moral guidance. Abortions for reasons of birth control, gender selection, or convenience are not condoned by the Church.

Ok so the "more vacations" options is dead.

Quote:

4) continued

Women, at times however, may face exceptional circumstances that present serious moral or medical dilemmas, such as significant threats to the pregnant woman's life, serious jeopardy to her health

Ok so mother would not survive the procedure definitely qualifies.

Quote:

, severe congenital defects carefully diagnosed in the fetus, and pregnancy resulting from rape or incest.

Oops! Here we have healthy babies terminated because they are not wanted - no health risk to mother.

But here is where we can agree -

Quote:

The final decision whether to terminate the pregnancy or not should be made by the pregnant woman after appropriate consultation. She should be aided in her decision by accurate information, biblical principles, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

This is where some kind of moral guidance from her denomination would have been helpful.

Quote:

6) Church institutions should be provided with guidelines for developing their own institutional policies in harmony with this statement.

Yes - that is why we need something like clarity on the subject. It was also very confusing to slave owners in the 19th century as it turns out.

Quote:

Persons having a religious or ethical objection to abortion should not be required to participate in the performance of abortions.

So we have consistency on the point that nobody should be forced to have an abortion or forced to help someone have an abortion.

It least the simple kindergarten level clarity is there.

What is unclear is how a person would have had a "religious or ethical objection" to abortion based on anything said in this "guideline" - so far.

Quote:

Principles for a Christian View of Life

Life: Our valuable gift from God

1) God is the Source, Giver, and Sustainer of all life (Acts 17:25,28; Job 33:4; Genesis 1:30, 2:7; Psalm 36:9; John 1:3,4).

2) Human life has unique value because human beings, though fallen, are created in the image of God (Genesis 1:27; Romans 3:23; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 3:2; John 1:29; 1 Peter 1:18,19).

3) God values human life not on the basis of human accomplishments or contributions but because we are God's creation and the object of His redeeming love (Romans 5:6,8; Ephesians 2:2-6; 1 Timothy 1:15; Titus 3:4,5; Matthew 5:43-48; Ephesians 2:4-9; John 1:3, 10:10).

Life: Our response to God's gift

4) Valuable as it is, human life is not the only or ultimate concern. Self-sacrifice in devotion to God and His principles may take precedence over life itself (Revelation 12:11; 1 Corinthians 13).

5) God calls for the protection of human life and holds humanity accountable for its destruction (Exodus 20:13; Revelation 21:8; Exodus 23:7; Deuteronomy 24:16; Proverbs 6:16,17; Jeremiah 7:3-34; Micah 6:7; Genesis 9:5,6).

6) God is especially concerned for the protection of the weak, the defenseless, and the oppressed (Psalm 82:3,4; James 1:27; Micah 6:8; Acts 20:35; Proverbs 24:11,12; Luke 1:52-54).

Life: Our right and responsibility to decide

9) God gives humanity the freedom of choice, even if it leads to abuse and tragic consequences. His unwillingness to coerce human obedience necessitated the sacrifice of His Son. He requires us to use His gifts in accordance with His will and ultimately will judge their misuse (Deuteronomy 30:19,20; Genesis 3; 1 Peter 2:24; Romans 3:5,6, 6:1,2; Galatians 5:13).

...

*Abortion, as understood in these guidelines, is defined as any action aimed at the termination of a pregnancy already established. This is distinguished from contraception, which is intended to prevent a pregnancy. The focus of the document is on abortion.

http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/guidelines/main-guide1.html

ok so filtering through the guideline and tossing out all the "abortion is ok for liberals" ideas - we got to the heart of the issue of the value of human life in those comments above.

in Christ,

Bob

[Overaged]

Ya; what you said.

[Twilight]

In response to Bobs post.

So the church is basically saying, it condones abortions on health grounds.

It also condones abortions based on a forced pregnancy (rape, incest etc).

The question is, is that all biblical?

[Nic Samojluk]

Therefore, any attempts to coerce women either to remain pregnant or to terminate pregnancy should be rejected as infringements of personal freedom.

[Overaged]

Nic; I do agree with you on one thing you mentioned above. You said, words to the effect that those Adventists, performing abortions in direct violation of official church policy should be required to sever their connections to the Adventist Church. All I am saying here is that you go way too far in your accusations against the Church.

[phkrause]

Are we saying hat Jesus came to grant us the freedom to take the life of innocent human beings? Did Jesus also die to grant us the freedom to rape, steal, and sexually abuse little children?

No he's saying that Jesus Died for all "Sinners" to reconsal(sp) us back to his Father. So that if we believe on him and repent he can forgive us for those sins, like rape, stealing, abusing little children, abortion (per your definition), etc. Like he said to Mary,"go and sin no more". I'm sorry that the rest of us are such sinners in your eyes. It must be something to not sin anymore? and be able to judge why the rest of us do all those nasty things to ourselves and others?

[Nic Samojluk]

Spread the word.

We are spreading the word. Nevertheless, did anybody notice that the the title contains a mispelling of the word "agenda"?

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: True-believer

Spread the word.

We are spreading the word. Nevertheless, did anybody notice that the the title contains a mispelling of the word "agenda"?

I did. Somebody said: "what's good for a goose is good for aganda". lol

[Nic Samojluk]

You said, words to the effect that those Adventists, performing abortions in direct violation of official church policy should be required to sever their connections to the Adventist Church.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

Are we saying hat Jesus came to grant us the freedom to take the life of innocent human beings? Did Jesus also die to grant us the freedom to rape, steal, and sexually abuse little children?

No he's saying that Jesus Died for all "Sinners" to reconsal(sp) us back to his Father. So that if we believe on him and repent he can forgive us for those sins, like rape, stealing, abusing little children, abortion (per your definition), etc. Like he said to Mary,"go and sin no more". I'm sorry that the rest of us are such sinners in your eyes. It must be something to not sin anymore? and be able to judge why the rest of us do all those nasty things to ourselves and others?

You may not be aware of this, but this verse was used by a former religious liberty director of the Southeastern California Conference in his defense of the practice of abortion by the church.

He forcefully argued that unborn children do not have any right to life whatsoever until they take the first breath, and that Jesus died on the cross in order to restore our “freedom to choose.”

The “freedom to choose” phrase, when used in connection with the issue of abortion, is a loaded one and has nothing to do with the meaning you assign it here.

[Overaged]

This is precisely what happened in Germany when our church cooperated with the Nazi regime and decades later our church had to apologize for our lack of moral stamina to stand for what is right. The same thing happened in Rwanda. Killing innocent human beings in the name of the Advenist organization is much worse than when this is done by a single individual.

[Dr. Shane]

Are we saying that Jesus came to grant us the freedom to take the life of innocent human beings? Did Jesus also die to grant us the freedom to rape, steal, and sexually abuse little children?

First, Nic... it seems you really have a bad case of diarrhea of the keyboard. You ramble on and on restating things you have already stated in early posts. When you do that, people just skip over what you post and you have little influence on the board.

Now for this strawman you are bring up for the 40th time. The church condemns abortion in black and white issues like using it for birth control, choose the sex of the child and for cases of convenience. In the gray areas, the choice is left between the woman, her loved ones and God.

This is the same with killing other humans. In the black and white issues of first and second degree murder, the church clearly condemns it. In the gray areas, like military combat and law enforcement, the church leaves that decision between the believer his/her loved ones and God.

What about stealing? Well, in the black and white issues the church is clear. But what about a hungry man stealing to feed his family? Not so clear.

The world isn't black and white. There are gray areas and the church recognizes that. We are not Catholics and do not look to the pope for guidance. In many circumstances, the believer must go to God in prayer and act as they feel impressed by Him.

[Guest]

"Few are aware of the fearful extent to which this nefarious business, this worse than devilish practice, is carried on in all classes of society! Many a woman determines that she will not become a mother, and subjects herself to the vilest treatment, committing the basest crime to carry out her purpose. And many a man, who has 'as many children as he can support,' instead of restraining his passions, aids in the destruction of the babes he has begotten.

"The sin lies at the door of both parents in equal measure; for the father, although he may not always aid in the murder, is always accessory to it, in that he induces, and sometimes even forces upon the mother the condition which he knows will lead to the commission of this crime...." {A Solemn Appeal by James & Ellen White p. 100}

[Overaged]

Many were called; and a few were frozen Mat 22:14

[Guest]

Sacrilage is not funny.

[Tammy]

"Few are aware of the fearful extent to which this nefarious business, this worse than devilish practice, is carried on in all classes of society! Many a woman determines that she will not become a mother, and subjects herself to the vilest treatment, committing the basest crime to carry out her purpose. And many a man, who has 'as many children as he can support,' instead of restraining his passions, aids in the destruction of the babes he has begotten.

"The sin lies at the door of both parents in equal measure; for the father, although he may not always aid in the murder, is always accessory to it, in that he induces, and sometimes even forces upon the mother the condition which he knows will lead to the commission of this crime...." {A Solemn Appeal by James & Ellen White p. 100}

Excellent post, Richard....it is so sad that people just don't want to admit that abortion is murder....

On this issue alone, I understand why so many won't join the church and why others leave the church. (There is no other church to join...but I'd rather worship at home with a few like believers than belong to a Church that is in the abortion business.) I wouldn't join any other organization that is Pro-Choice, so why would I belong to a church, of all organizations, that is Pro-choice?

[Tammy]

I'm not OA, but I will answer your questions:

1. No. I KNOW abortions of any kind are not performed in North American (one hospital in Trinidad, West Indies, may be an exception - I don't know), South American, or Australian hospitals "with the name of Seventh Day Adventist on them." I don't know if they do abortions in hospitals "with the name of Seventh Day Adventist on them" in Africa or Asia. There are only 8 hospitals in those regions "with the name Seventh Day Adventist on them."

2. Since I don't think it is true (and I'm assuming - perhaps incorrectly - that you are referring to hospitals in the United States), question #2 is moot.

But thank you for the questions.

p.s. It is foolish to ask questions in a manner designed to prove one's position, when one has not done one's research.