Pro-Abortion still on the aganda!!!

[Nic Samojluk]

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There is no "official" church position so there's nothing to distort about it. Nobody seems to want to admit this.

I all depends on how you define the term “official.” For me the following statement at the bottom of the “Guidelines on Abortion” is sufficient evidence:

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“These guidelines were approved and voted by the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists Executive Committee at the Annual Council session in Silver Spring, Maryland, October 12, 1992.”

Of course, someone can argue that the GC Annual Council is not the same as the Adventist Church in session. The fact that this was approved 12 yeas ago and we have gone through three general sessions of the church without voiding what the 1992 Annual Council has decided speaks volumes. Silence for such a long period of time means tacit approval.

[Nic Samojluk]

Actually, I have refuted every point Nic has made. He continues to repeat the same old arguments that I have already defeated.

[phkrause]

Thank you for sharing your testimony, John 3:17. I do believe pictures are far more powerful than words....

Kind of

I disagree that pictures make any difference to the majority. I had a friend that was a heavy smoker, he worked for a cancer research place, I don't recall the name. But he used to tell me all about the images that he'd see there. He said it grossed him out but yet he kept right on smoking. He also knew the consequence's of smoking.

[Nic Samojluk]

Amen to that one Shane. When people resort to gumbo like Spectrum, which in my mind isn't even an "Adventist" magazine, then we can know the desperation of their "evidence."

And you claim having read mi dissertation? I just counted the number of references in my dissertation taken from our official “Ministry”? magazine: 95. Contrast this with those from “Spectrum:” 12. As you can see, I placed a heavy emphasis on our official publications. Given the wide readership of Spectrum by Adventists would it have been fair for an investigator to completely ignore said source?

What does this do to your argument? If you add the references to Adventist books and other publications like "Liberty" and "Adventist Review" the contrast becomes even more impressive. Does this support your suggestion that we are getting desperate? It seems evident to me that you are grasping at straw. You need to place your feet on “terra firma.”

[Nic Samojluk]

1. No. I KNOW abortions of any kind are not performed in North American (one hospital in Trinidad, West Indies, may be an exception - I don't know), South American, or Australian hospitals "with the name of Seventh Day Adventist on them." I don't know if they do abortions in hospitals "with the name of Seventh Day Adventist on them" in Africa or Asia. There are only 8 hospitals in those regions "with the name Seventh Day Adventist on them."

[Dr. Shane]

If you had lived in Germany when the church cooperated with the Nazis, you probably would have defended the church the way you are defending it now.

That is what we call a strawman. It is typical for people that ramble on and on and on and on. The defeat is sound when the strawmen come out.

[Nic Samojluk]

I don't know how many, if any, abortions are performed at Adventist hospitals. However I do not want conferences, unions or divisions micromanaging our hospitals. Our denomination has an official position and one would hope that the hospitals would follow it.

[Nic Samojluk]

We are indeed blessed by the fact that the Adventist pioneers in the 1800's had the presence of mind to take a bold stand on the subject of the "value of human life" when it came to slavery. If only we still had such clarity today. Yet to be fair the Church's official statement is to oppose abortion. At least they appear to know it is murder.

Yes, our Adventist pioneers stuck to the Bible on this issue. Unfortunately, in spite of our apparent opposition to abortion, we justify the killing of innocent unborn babies under such a variety of circumstances that it is hard to find any difference between our position and that of the rest of society. In fact, most non-Adventist church goers’ attitude towards abortion is closer to what our pioneers believed than the opinion of our Adventists today.

If we share the diluted moral values of the rest of society, what good is it for us to claim that we are the “Remnant” who keep God’s Commandments. Our actions speak louder than our words. We are killing innocent babies by the hundreds in some of our Adventist hospitals. Abortion has become the modern equivalent of the pagan god Moloch. In Old Testament times people burned their unwanted children in honor of their god. We burn them with chemicals.

[Nic Samojluk]

Nic; I do agree with you on one thing you mentioned above. You said, words to the effect that those Adventists, performing abortions in direct violation of official church policy should be required to sever their connections to the Adventist Church. All I am saying here is that you go way too far in your accusations against the Church.

I am glad to learn that we do agree on something. Please tell me where I have gone too far in my assessment of our church’s position on abortion. I have always attempted to be factual and to avoid any distortion of documented facts. Please, show me where I have failed to live up to this aim of mine!

[Stan]

Is it 2010 in the USA as well?

[Nic Samojluk]

I'm sorry that the rest of us are such sinners in your eyes.

I agree with you that we are all sinners in need of repentance and forgiveness. We all have come short of God’s glory. Abortion is not the worst sin in God’s eyes. Pride is a much worse sin than killing because it cuts us off from the need of repentance and forgiveness. The Lord is ready to forgive all sins, but if we do not feel a need for repentance, there is no way for God to grant us what we feel no need for.

This is why I am so concerned about the message we project with our policy on abortion. We are telling women that they have done nothing wrong when they take the life of their own child. How can such women seek repentance and forgiveness if the church is telling them that abortion is not a sin when it is done under such a variety of circumstances, including when a woman’s mental health is affected?

[Nic Samojluk]

Like I said you have a lot of other, separate issues with the Church that affect both the context and accuracy of your "contention."

[Nic Samojluk]

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You ramble on and on restating things you have already stated in early posts. When you do that, people just skip over what you post and you have little influence on the board.

I tend to repeat things over because you and others show evidence that you have not read what I have stated. If you keep ignoring or rejecting what I have been saying forces me to repeat what I have already stated before.

Perhaps you have the habit of skipping what people have posted. I don’t ignore what people have taken the time to write, especially when it concerns things I have said, and more so when I am the target of false claims and misrepresentations.

[Nic Samojluk]

One of the most unfortunate things in this debate is how people like Nic, Tammy, or Doug keep saying that the church supports murder because some professing Adventists, or Adventist institutions professing the name are getting away with doing it.

Murder is a strong word. Our early pioneers described abortion as “murder” and a direct violation of the Sixth Commandment.

Was it wrong for me to cite what our pioneers wrote about abortion verbatim? Should I have first sanitized their writings to make sure you would not be offended?

We can replace the word murder with something less offensive, but the fact is that our church does condone our participation in what the Lord has condemned.

[John317]

...If we share the diluted moral values of the rest of society, what good is it for us to claim that we are the “Remnant” who keep God’s Commandments. Our actions speak louder than our words. We are killing innocent babies by the hundreds in some of our Adventist hospitals. Abortion has become the modern equivalent of the pagan god Moloch. In Old Testament times people burned their unwanted children in honor of their god. We burn them with chemicals.

Personally I'm opposed to abortion but I also believe breaking the Sabbath is wrong. I believe in the right of people to do both things, even though I believe both things are wrong. If the state allows people to have abortions, that is the state's right to make its own laws. But as a church, we shouldn't demand that the state support the church's teachings on this or any other subject.

I don't believe the Remnant will be forcing people to obey their belief system. As citizens of our respective nations, we should participate in voting when it comes to making laws regarding abortion, but it is up to each individual to vote his own conscience on this issue, and we shouldn't make the issue a test of fellowship or Christian character.

[Nic Samojluk]

The Adventist church is pro-life in the area of religion. It condemns abortion when used for birth control, sex selection or convenience. Abortions for those reasons make up over 90% of abortions in the US. That means the Adventist church condemns over 90% of abortions. The other less-than-10% are gray areas left up to the believer.

The church condemns 90 percent of abortions and also condones the same. Have you forgotten that even mental depression is considered an acceptable reason for abortion? Ninety percent of abortions are the result of mental depression. The woman is so depressed about the unexpected pregnancy that she is desperate to get rid of the unborn child.

Do you see any other main reason for choosing to kill the unborn? Cases of rape, malformation, and incest do not exceed two or three percent of the total number of abortions, according to experts. What is left is almost entirely due to the mental depression created by the unplanned pregnancy, and this is condoned by the church.

Besides, what good is for the unborn baby that the church theoretically condemns abortion if it looks the other way while our own hospitals are killing unborn babies by the hundreds?

[Nic Samojluk]

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Maybe if you were to put it all in a more accuarate perspective; it wouldn't be so "wrong" to question. Maybe if this whole thing were in a more realistic perspective; guys like you & Nic would be spending twice this much energy opposing ones like Alice Cooper, who has for years sang his "famous song" about how "Dead Babies Can't Take Things Off The Shelves."

I have no idea who Alice Cooper is, but I did understand what Doug tried to convey to you: It seems that the church considers smoking worse than taking the life of an innocent baby. The addiction to the weed deprives the smoker of five year from his life, and it is sinful according to the church. [You do not see Adventists lighting a cigarette after church, because the church says it is a sin to harm our on body.]

At the same time the church seems to consider depriving a human being of his entire life something subject to a personal choice. Why doesn’t the church also grant personal choice when dealing with smoking?

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I have never seen such blame fired where it doesn't even belong. I still think the Church's approach to abortions is quite sound, and that because you and Nic have not said a word about where the real root of the problem actually is. Since you have been totally silent in opposition to Alice Cooper, then, going by Nic's and your own rules, you are guilty of supporting and promoting murder. This is exactly what Nic is trying to do to the Church; and so far, neither he or anyone that supports him has made one iota of sense.

Please, tell us who is Alice Cooper so that we can condemn her actions. How can we condemn what we know nothing about? Do you want us to do this on the basis of hearsay?

[aldona]

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the story of a non-Adventist pastor and his wife who were in search of a Christian physician and landed in the office of a Takoma Park, Maryland, Seventh-day Adventist obstetrician who, after confirming the woman’s pregnancy, asked the couple: “Do you want this baby or do you want an abortion?” The pastor and his wife looked at each other with shock and disbelief. They got up, said “We are sorry. We must be in the wrong place!” and walked out.

They walked out too quick. Maybe his question was delivered in a manner that was too confronting, but they should have stayed around to see what the doc said next.

When a new patient comes to me for a pregnancy test and I know nothing about her background, I often try to diplomatically ask something like "is this a planned pregnancy?" or "have you thought about what you will do if this test is positive?" Or when the test comes up positive, ask something like "is this a good thing, or a bad thing?" or read their body language - when told the test is positive, does she act happy, or burst into tears, or act shocked?

The reason is because if she then states that she wants an abortion, that is the time to tell her that since I do not do abortions and neither do any of the other docs at our clinic, she will have to go to some other clinic if that is what she has decided.

(A Catholic doctor I worked with once, who also had nothing to do with abortions, would often preface the consultation with a similar discreet enquiry followed by a similar explanation if required.)

I also make sure I let them know what their options are, strongly encourage them to talk it over with family/partner/ someone they trust and not rush into a decision, seek counselling, etc.

(Disclaimer: Most of the people in this situation are not actively practicing Christians, or any other religion as far as I can tell. I have never had anybody who identified themselves as a practicing Christian request an abortion, except one case where the baby was severely deformed. I'm sure it happens, just not so much in my experience.)

AJ

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

...Gainer started his article with the story of a non-Adventist pastor and his wife who were in search of a Christian physician and landed in the office of a Takoma Park, Maryland, Seventh-day Adventist obstetrician who, after confirming the woman’s pregnancy, asked the couple: Do you want this baby or do you want an abortion? The pastor and his wife looked at each other with shock and disbelief. They got up, said We are sorry. We must be in the wrong place! and walked out.

I had exactly that same experience when my wife and I went to a public, non-SDA clinic. As soon as they confirmed my wife's pregnancy, the very next question was whether my wife wanted an abortion. I was shocked for the doctor to ask us that same question, so I can imagine how much more shocked I would be if an SDA doctor asked me that. My 22 year old daughter and her husband are really glad that we accepted her and didn't throw her in the trash with all the other aborted babies.

If people could see a picture of all the dead babies after the day's abortions, they would feel sick and there'd be no more need to tell them how horrible abortions are. And there'd also be no more denial that they are babies.

Once, at a debate on abortion during the early 70s at a university, the pro-life side simply showed slides of dead babies who'd been aborted, and you could have heard a pin drop. My side-- pro-choice-- never even got back up when our turn came for rebuttal. There was no use. Even they realized there was something wrong defending what we saw in those trash cans. What were words against the reality, which no one felt like denying after seeing those dead bodies, at least one of which I remember still had its thumb in its mouth.

Thanks, John! Case closed.

[Nic Samojluk]

Once again Nic; you are only quoting sympathizing sources

[Nic Samojluk]

Gainer's "story" is anecdotal at best; it is not "evidence" of official church teaching or guideline.

Do you have hard evidence to suggest that Gainer’s version of the facts is unreliable? Nobody has ever questioned the accuracy of his report. You are hurling cheap shots without a thread of evidentiary material. Is this the type of scholarship you promote?

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: John317

I had exactly that same experience when my wife and I went to a public, non-SDA clinic. As soon as they confirmed my wife's pregnancy, the very next question was whether my wife wanted an abortion. I was shocked for the doctor to ask us that same question, so I can imagine how much more shocked I would be if an SDA doctor asked me that. My 22 year old daughter and her husband are really glad that we accepted her and didn't throw her in the trash with all the other aborted babies.

If people could see a picture of all the dead babies after the day's abortions, they would feel sick and there'd be no more need to tell them how horrible abortions are. And there'd also be no more denial that they are babies.

Once, at a debate on abortion during the early 70s at a university, the pro-life side simply showed slides of dead babies who'd been aborted, and you could have heard a pin drop. My side-- pro-choice-- never even got back up when our turn came for rebuttal. There was no use. Even they realized there was something wrong defending what we saw in those trash cans. What were words against the reality, which no one felt like denying after seeing those dead bodies, at least one of which I remember still had its thumb in its mouth.

Thank you for sharing your testimony, John 3:17. I do believe pictures are far more powerful than words....

The picture on our brochure speaks volumes....

Abortion & The SDA Church Brochure

I agree! Get a hard copy of the brochure. It is much more impressive than the one posted online.

[Nic Samojluk]

No one here has been able to show any convincing evidence that the church supports murder/abortion, unless it is somehow connected to or affiliated with Nic and what he is trying to do in his smear campaign.

For you no amount of evidence will be sufficient. This reminds me of the experience of Jesus who faced the Jewish leaders' demand for evidence that he was the promised Jewish Messiah. He fed the five thousand with a couple of fish and five loaves of bread, and they said: “No big deal! You fed a single meal to five thousand? Moses fed two million people three meals a day for forty years!”

Jesus then raised the daughter of Jairus, and they said: “Jesus himself said that she was not really dead, but rather asleep. Anyone can wake up a sleeping girl.”

Then Jesus raised Lazarus who had been dead for four days. His enemies said: “He does these miracles through the power of Beelzebub.” Then Jesus came out of the tomb after he was crucified. Those who had demanded hard evidence said: “His disciples stole his body. This is why the tomb is empty.”

Jesus knew in advance that for those who refuse to believe the evidence which has been provided, no amount of additional evidence would alter their mind. This is why in once of his parables he stated: “They won’t believe even if one were raised from the dead.” His prophecy was literally and accurately fulfilled.

The evidence you are demanding from me is in my dissertation and in my postings in this forum, but you are asking for more. The church condemns abortion and condones the same under a variety of circumstances including the mental exception, which is the main point of demand by abortionists.

In addition it looks the other way while hundreds of unborn babies are mercilessly slaughtered in some of our own hospitals. Nevertheless, all his evidence is not sufficient for you. If an angel from heaven were to come and say what I am saying, you would not believe.

[Nic Samojluk]

Regarding point number six, no one has said that, and you know it.

[Nic Samojluk]

It's too bad Nic sees fit to keep quoting air-head sources that are so biased you can see them coming a mile away.

You keep shooting at Nic in spite of the fact hat you are missing the target. My main sources have been “Ministry” [95 references] “The Adventist Review,” “Liberty Magazine;” a few independent sources like “Spectrum,” which is very popular among Adventists; “Adventist Today;” plus four books dealing with abortion published by reputable organizations and authored by the crème of Adventism. And you think that these are “air-head sources”?