Dr. Shane Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 I see things from a different perspective. In Germany under Hitler, the church compromised for the sake of the survival of the entire denominational structure in those countries. Our church in the U.S. compromised for fear of loosing the profit derived from a lucrative business. Indeed. That is a very distorted perspective. I would call it an out-of-touch-with-reality perspective. In the U.S. the church has not compromised. No compromise. It hasn't happen and doesn't look like it is going to happen. Get rid of that strawman. Burn him up! Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 Likewise, in Rwanda, Adventists killed innocent human beings under extreme duress... Another strawman? All these strawmen just show how weak your argument is. You have been reduced to grasping at straws. "Adventists" that killed humans in Rwanda were not in good standing with the church. No local conference, mission or union acted in an official capacity to kill other people. Get rid of that strawman. Burn him up! Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 Since when actively participating in the killing of innocent unborn babies in violation of what the Bible forbids is not condoning abortion? That is what Planned Parenthood does, not the Adventist church. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted December 9, 2010 Members Share Posted December 9, 2010 Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk Likewise, in Rwanda, Adventists killed innocent human beings under extreme duress... Another strawman? All these strawmen just show how weak your argument is. You have been reduced to grasping at straws. "Adventists" that killed humans in Rwanda were not in good standing with the church. No local conference, mission or union acted in an official capacity to kill other people. Get rid of that strawman. Burn him up! Interesting thing about the Rwanda genocide. The ONLY American who stayed in the country during that horrific time to help save people was a Seventh day Adventist -- Carl Wilkens, former director, Adventist Relief Agency. Funny no one hears much about that. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted December 9, 2010 Administrators Share Posted December 9, 2010 Went to school with Carl and I also worked with his father for a number of years. Good people. Carl's story is an amazing one. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 Indeed. That is a very distorted perspective. I would call it an out-of-touch-with-reality perspective. In the U.S. the church has not compromised. No compromise. It hasn't happen and doesn't look like it is going to happen. The church has not compromised? Did you read the account of how this took place written by George Gainer as I suggested? If you haven’t, it’s no use for me to insist that you believe what I am saying. If you refuse to look at the evidence, then we are wasting precious time with our dialogue. Fear of loss of revenue led the church to participate in what the Lord forbids. If this is not compromise, then the term compromise has lost it true meaning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 Re Carl I was in the Capital in the summer of 1994, shortly after the previous Gov't fell. An emotional time was when someone say my ADRA t-shirt came up to me and embraced me, and wept, and told me how the ADRA leader, Carl, saved the life of his himself and a couple of his children. It was one of those griping moments in my life. While Carl did that and more, and he saved more lives then the entire US Military, that was camped in Entebbe a few hundred miles away. Carl did all this and more, while most of us sat at home and watched comedies etc on TV. Some of us were even complaining about how rough we had it in life, while that genocide was going on. Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 "Adventists" that killed humans in Rwanda were not in good standing with the church. No local conference, mission or union acted in an official capacity to kill other people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 "Adventists" that killed humans in Rwanda were not in good standing with the church. No local conference, mission or union acted in an official capacity to kill other people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 I was at that hospital and church. "We wish to inform you, the letter said, that tomorrow, we will be killed with our families. " Was his way of saying, "GET OUT OF TOWN, THEY ARE GOING TO KILL YOU TOMORROW" They did need to convict some folks in this. Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 That is what Planned Parenthood does, not the Adventist church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 Interesting thing about the Rwanda genocide. The ONLY American who stayed in the country during that horrific time to help save people was a Seventh day Adventist -- Carl Wilkens, former director, Adventist Relief Agency. Funny no one hears much about that. Thanks for reminding us of some of the noble deeds done during said terrible genocide. We need to stand for the truth, which includes both the bad and the good deeds of people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Fetus Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Hypertonic saline burns the delicate skin, eyes, and lungs of fetuses. It's not a common abortion technique anymore, but it was used unsuccessfully (in a clinic owned by Adventist and abortion pioneer Edward Allred's) on Gianna Jessen. http://julieroys.com/gianna-jessen-asks-congress-if-abortion-is-about-womens-rights-then-what-were-mine/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Unfortunately, we live in a sin-tainted planet, and while abortion is a great evil, there are some circumstances in which it may be the lesser of two evils Well said.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Well said.... I can't speak to anyone elses' personal trust, but Samson chose self perpetrated death (could have been considered self murder) as opposed to looking forward to life as a blind beast of burden for the enemies of God. Of course that was his choice whereas an unborn child doesn't have the choice. I can see a parent's love showing through in a case where their unborn is known to have the disease spina bifida. OTOH how much can we allow for the possibilities of the likes of A brief history of Stephen Hawking Stephen Hawking is the most recognisable scientist of modern times. His life has fascinated people for decades, culminating in an Oscar-winning portrayal of him in the film 'The Theory of Everything'. The film's title is a nod to his scientific life. Hawking has spent years looking for a single theory that describes our Universe. And despite debilitating illness, he's been one of science's great popularisers, conveying his ideas to millions. http://www.bbc.co.uk/timelines/zwjmtfr God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Fetus Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Unfortunately, we live in a sin-tainted planet, and while abortion is a great evil, there are some circumstances in which it may be the lesser of two evils. I do not know what proportion of abortions feature cases like the ones I mentioned, but even if it is a very small minority, for these people's sake abortion needs to be available, legal and carried out in safe circumstances by someone who knows what they are doing. (not to mention cases of rape or incest). ... Someone who is in this situation and whose level of inner conviction is being outweighed by the pressure being applied (emotional, social or financial), will find a way to end her pregnancy even if it is illegal and involves great risk and harm to herself. Maybe if we want to reduce the number of abortions, we need to start with people's attitudes (both male and female), and the level of support that we (as individuals and as a society) give those with unplanned pregnancies. Disfigurement: Let the child live. She has done no wrong. If she wants to commit suicide later, that's between her and God, but she may--shockingly!--lead a full life. Statistically, most able-bodied people vastly underestimate the quality of life of the disabled. Also, God's strength is made perfect in weakness. Anencephaly: This is the only case in which I could almost ease my condemnation of abortion. I would still default to letting the child live as long as possible with normal interventions. Rape and incest: The child has done no wrong. The child may even be perfectly healthy. Why condemn her to death for the sins of her father? In all cases--obviously--support the mother emotionally and physically, as needed. But an abortion always takes the life of an innocent child. That's why, like other types of murder, it should be illegal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted September 13, 2015 Moderators Share Posted September 13, 2015 (edited) Are you certain about the following? Let me explain: A pregnant woman experiences a fetal death. There is no chance for a live birth. Death has already occurred. Now nature is in charge. The dead remains will be delivered by natural means at the time and place that the female body decides. It may be at a time when she sits on the toilet. It may be while she is sitting in church. It may be while she is shopping in a grocery store. It will simply at an unexpected time and place over which the woman has no control. The woman decides that this is more than she can tolerate. She decides that she wants to get it over with and go on with her life and she can not stand thinking and waiting. So, the physicians inform her that they can remove the remains of the deceased fetus. IOW, they can perform an abortion. The woman has the procedure and the hospital bills her insurance company for a voluntary abortion. Contrary to your statement, this abortion is NOT the taking of an innocent life. Death has already occurred. By the way, this may happen more often than you realize. NOTE: As a clinician, working in a hospital, I have had to work with women who have been in this exact situation. This has included working with women who have had the insurance company refuse payment for the procedure. Normally, in such a case, further communication with the insurance company would result in payment. But an abortion always takes the life of an innocent child. Edited September 13, 2015 by Gregory Matthews Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators debbym Posted September 13, 2015 Administrators Share Posted September 13, 2015 When children are born to starve to death i think abortion would have been merciful. When children are born to be raped from the time they are infants i see abortion as merciful. When children are born to die in an orphanage untouched, and born to a home that is emotionally, mentally, and economically unable to provide the basic needs for that child i see abortion as merciful. We deny this dark side of humanity or ignore it, or choose not to think about it.... it is very awful. Suicide, mental illness, and prison, and all the suffering that follows these spring from deprivation of needs. And the sufferings of the next generations from the families that suffer from these events deepens the cycle. Poverty and lack of education are recognized as social markers of the disadvantaged. Some struggle deeply with bringing a deeply and profoundly disadvantaged child into the world. Unless you are in this position you cannot imagine the burdens that may come on your life, and lead you to utterly despair of life.. CoAspen 1 Quote deb Love awakens love. Let God be true and every man a liar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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