bonnie Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 Since the conception of the institution of "church" the primary function of churches/religions has been to tell people what to think. I don't think it is a matter of the church telling you what to think. It is the declaration of what the church stands for. By joining, in theory you agree with the beliefs of the church you join. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derrell M Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 Of course people have the choice of joining a church that imposes beliefs that they are comfortable having imposed on them. They are also free to leave the church, yet the church tells its members what to believe and makes it clear through outright statements, or through implication, that deviation from those beliefs will put the person at odds with God and will result in being lost in the event the person fails to return to compliance. This, in my opinion, is a definition of church telling people what to think, which then would say that the primary function of church is to tell people what to think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 Of course people have the choice of joining a church that imposes beliefs that they are comfortable having imposed on them. They are also free to leave the church, yet the church tells its members what to believe and makes it clear through outright statements, or through implication, that deviation from those beliefs will put the person at odds with God and will result in being lost in the event the person fails to return to compliance. This, in my opinion, is a definition of church telling people what to think, which then would say that the primary function of church is to tell people what to think. Someone imposing something on me would indicate to me against my will. I do not agree with abortion on demand and do think the church has taken a stand that allows them not to stand. The majority of abortions are performed for social reasons or because baby is inconvenient. Abortions for the health and life of the mother are not that frequent and have been available as far as I know without Roe vs Wade. A abortion would have been possible for me in 1965 for health reasons. I chose not to. Pregnancy out of wedlock does not carry the same stigma it did. There is an alternative to abortion and it is called adoption. That however makes a woman go thru 9 months of pregnancy. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kountzer Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 Why would the Catholics listen to what we have to say about the Sabbath, when they know that we have no respect, as a denomination, for life? Adventists didn't create the sabbath or the sabbath issue. Catholics are disconnected from the word of God. Quote I prayed for twenty years but received no answer until I prayed with my legs. Frederick Douglass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kountzer Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 "We have about 135 hospitals, clinics, health centers world wide just in our own denomination and I am not familiar with their policies regarding abortion in our denomination. There would be no reason for me to have that information. Many of the doctors who have surgical privileges in our hospitals are not Adventist. You can contact www.bibleuniverse.com, www.amazingfacts.org as they might have the answer you are seeking. To be fair, it would take a lot of research, time and money to contact each hospital founded by Catholics and Christians regarding their policy on abortion. Each case would have to be evaluated to see how many, for what reasons, medical indications, etc... Basically, most Christian denominations allow for abortion in the first three months (first trimester) under certain circumstances. (1) To prevent impending danger to or death of the mother (2) pregnancy resulting from rape and (3) pregnancy resulting from incest. Abortion should be the last resort after every other medical treatment has been considered and tried, not just an alternative form of birth control. I worked in an Adventist hospital for four years and never had a patient who had had an abortion. I worked in several different departments. When I was doing my nursing clinicals, I didn't come across any patients who had had an abortion in the Adventist hospital. I do know of a few pregnant women whose condition became so precarious to not only their own health but the health of the unborn child that they had to live in the hospital about three months for stabilization and 24/7 monitoring in order to save their life and that of the unborn child." Quote I prayed for twenty years but received no answer until I prayed with my legs. Frederick Douglass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 That's a powerful testimony, Aldona. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 Originally Posted By: carolaa What exactly is it that blows you away? It doesn't look like anything earth shattering to me. Well, this for one, really bothers me: "Therefore, any attempts to coerce women either to remain pregnant or to terminate pregnancy should be rejected as infringements of personal freedom." So you think it's ok to coerce a woman to remain pregnant or to terminate a pregnancy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 Originally Posted By: Aubrey Well' date=' this for one, really bothers me: "Therefore, any attempts to coerce women either to remain pregnant or to terminate pregnancy should be rejected as infringements of personal freedom." [/quote'] So you think it's ok to coerce a woman to remain pregnant or to terminate a pregnancy? In this day and age how many are actually coerced into becoming pregnant? Accidents happen and unplanned pregnancy can be the result. That does not explain the thousands and thousands of abortions. Carelessness maybe? Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted May 17, 2009 Members Share Posted May 17, 2009 I personally am against abortion, unless there are some very personal reason, like rape and if the pregnacy is going to kill the mother, etc. But having said that I'm pro-choice. I believe that God created us with a mind for choice. And God will judge us on those choice's. And as its been said before if you are pro-life you have no choice but if you are pro-choice you always have a choice. At least that's the way I see it. I'm not sure what the Adventist church backs, but I believe that they believe that it is something that is between each individual and God, and nobody else's business. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 pk Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 Accidents happen and unplanned pregnancy can be the result. I am not sure how someone can get pregnant by accident. It isn't like stubbing one's toe. Two different people have to remove their clothing and physically connect in a sexual manner in such a way to achieve intercourse. How does that happen by accident? Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 The Adventist church takes a position on abortion that indicates behavior which is believed to be sinful. The church takes a clear position on the sin issue. Abortion to choose the sex of the child, for birth control or convenience is sinful. That makes up over 90% of the abortions that occur in the US. So the church's position is that over 90% of the abortions that occur in the US are sinful. I take no issue with that position. Politically the church does not take a position. The church does not tell its members to vote either pro-choice or pro-life. The church's position is that it takes no position in regard to the political question of whether abortion should be legal or not. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aldona Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 That's a powerful testimony, Aldona. Thank you. Thank you for your kind words...It can be hard sometimes when you don't see things in black and white, no matter how hard you try... The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that attitude change must start with me (with each of us individually). Whenever I encounter a single mother, or a lady with an unplanned/unwanted pregnancy, I have to ask myself "is there anything in my words and actions which causes this lady to think, even for a moment, that it would have been easier if she had terminated this pregnancy before anybody knew about it?" aldona Quote www.asrc.org.au (Asylum Seeker Resource Centre, Melbourne)Helping over 2000 refugees & asylum seekers each monthIMSLP/Petrucci Music LibraryThe Public Domain Music Score Library - Free Sheet Music DownloadsLooking for classical sheet music? Try IMSLP first! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 I would hope, that the first place a woman with an unplanned pregnancy should be able to go, is her Church. History has not always shown that. I do want to make it clear, that is anyone who is watching this thread, and has had an abortion, you are more than welcome here without condemnation. ALDONA - your posts on this subject is just another confirmation of what I have told you privately. Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted May 17, 2009 Administrators Share Posted May 17, 2009 I would hope, that the first place a woman with an unplanned pregnancy should be able to go, is her Church. I was one of those women... unmarried pregnant teenager. It was because I was pregnant that I sought out the church. Thankfully I was welcomed in and I was treated like I had never been treated before in my life, with such love and acceptance. Brad Thorp was the one who facilitated that process. I was pressured to have an abortion twice- once in the above mentioned pregnancy and then again after I was married, due to ill health. I refused both times, having to take my own stand. You will never regret such a decision. Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derrell M Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 I personally am against abortion, unless there are some very personal reason, like rape and if the pregnacy is going to kill the mother, etc. But having said that I'm pro-choice. I believe that God created us with a mind for choice. And God will judge us on those choice's. And as its been said before if you are pro-life you have no choice but if you are pro-choice you always have a choice. At least that's the way I see it. I'm not sure what the Adventist church backs, but I believe that they believe that it is something that is between each individual and God, and nobody else's business. pk I agree. God created us with choice. It is between us, the person we choose to eliminate, and God. There are not just two, but three people involved in that act. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatLakesGramma Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 Whenever I encounter a single mother, or a lady with an unplanned/unwanted pregnancy, I have to ask myself "is there anything in my words and actions which causes this lady to think, even for a moment, that it would have been easier if she had terminated this pregnancy before anybody knew about it?" Quote Catherine God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever. Psalm 73:26. "To be a Christian means to forgive the inexcusable, because God has forgiven the inexcusable in you." -- C. S. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 I would hope, that the first place a woman with an unplanned pregnancy should be able to go, is her Church. One of the reasons I support Care Net is because of the compassion they show women with unplanned pregnancies. They lead many women in crisis to Christ and the unplanned pregnancy turns out to be what led them to salvation. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 If the Adventist Church admits that 90% of abortion is sin, is it not a grave public weakness to say nothing to our church hospitals who participate in the act? Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 I am not sure how our hospitals are run. I doubt there is any central agency making decisions for all the hospitals. I also doubt the accuracy of the post made earlier in this thread about the GC president's comments. I am sure there are abortions done in our hospitals for women that have health issues and cannot continue the pregnancy. Most abortions being done for convenience or birth control are not being done in hospitals. They are done in out-patient clinics. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatLakesGramma Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Shane, Tammy said she and her husband personally heard Neil Wilson say that. It wasn't some rumor she heard. Quote Catherine God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever. Psalm 73:26. "To be a Christian means to forgive the inexcusable, because God has forgiven the inexcusable in you." -- C. S. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammy Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Thank you, GreatLakesGramma... We heard that with our own ears...we nearly feel off the pews....we couldn't believe our ears. And it wasn't just an employee of the Church, it was the GC President himself who said it. I know, it is hard to believe....and I know most of you don't know us....so I am sure it is easier in your own mind to not believe us, rather than believe that this is what was said. Someone asked me if I am an Adventist. I was born and raised an Adventist. I must say, after we heard Neil Wilson say this, my faith in the Church dropped way down... Thankfully, my faith and belief in the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy has only increased over the years...I'm soon to be 49... Recently, after this whole abortion subject came back up again, after finding out that this man owns the largest abortion clinic in the Nation, owns a racetrack that is open on Sabbath, Glen Helen Race Track and still is he held as a member in "good standing", participates as a member on certain SDA boards, I asked for my membership to be removed from the Church books. I am and always will be, a true SDA at heart....but as I see it, I have not left the Church, the Church has left me. And as several have already said on this thread, we should not condemn women who have had an abortion...I'm sure they are suffering under guilt already...we should try to do all we can to help them... It is the Church that has lowered its standard...how many babies might be alive today, had it not been for the stand the Church as taken???? God only knows... Quote When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69} The Narrow Way Ministires 5464 State Road Kingsville, OH 44048 choose_the_narrow_way@yahoo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Are you saying Neil Wilson owns those two entities? Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kountzer Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Then president Wilson told the truth. If all clinics and hospitals stopped performing this procedure this would only drive it underground. Quote I prayed for twenty years but received no answer until I prayed with my legs. Frederick Douglass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatLakesGramma Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Are you saying Neil Wilson owns those two entities? I'm pretty sure she's talking about Bud Feldkamp. Olger already mentioned that he's the owner of Glen Helen National Motocross Park. Quote Catherine God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever. Psalm 73:26. "To be a Christian means to forgive the inexcusable, because God has forgiven the inexcusable in you." -- C. S. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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