Pro-Abortion still on the aganda!!!

[Twilight]

And that is the issue for me.

As a Christian, there are certain things I have "no choice" about.

One of them is "Thou shalt not kill".

As Doug Batchelor said, "These are Ten Commandments, not Ten Suggestions".

As a Commandment Keeping people, we cannot justify breaking this commandment.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: Tammy

The powerful part is where the quotes are from....Ministry Magazine.... the fact that this subject is even debated within Adventism, is incredible...who would have ever thought that a Church that teaches the 10 Commandments could be Pro-Choice? I just pray enough people read this brochure and that it causes a big enough stir that forces the Church to change their Pro-Choice stand.

Being pro-choice has no baring on being pro-abortion. I am for choice but am against abortion, so I don't buy that agrument. God created us with a right to choose. And those choice's will be what he will judge's us on.

The pro-choice position is the choice to allow one human being to take the life of another innocent human being with impunity.While Pilate confessed that he was personally against condemning Jesus to death,he let those who wanted Him dead make the choice on whether or not an innocent life would be sacrificed. Jews living in any town were responsible for the death of those within their jurisdiction,they were called to account for anyone found dead near their towns. Shrugging the shoulders and saying,"it's not my problem,and it shouldn't be your problem,either" is also a choice that we will be responsible for someday.

[Guest]

Being pro-choice has no baring on being pro-abortion. I am for choice but am against abortion

LOL, that's like saying: "I am against speeding, but I think you should be able to drive too fast if you want to. Because one has no bearing on the other".

[cardw]

The pro-choice position is the choice to allow one human being to take the life of another innocent human being with impunity.While Pilate confessed that he was personally against condemning Jesus to death,he let those who wanted Him dead make the choice on whether or not an innocent life would be sacrificed. Jews living in any town were responsible for the death of those within their jurisdiction,they were called to account for anyone found dead near their towns. Shrugging the shoulders and saying,"it's not my problem,and it shouldn't be your problem,either" is also a choice that we will be responsible for someday.

What is interesting is that you are completely OK with god ordering the Israelites to kill innocent women and children, but you are against having any type of abortion.

If the Ten Commandments say we shouldn't kill and god turns and around and orders the Israelites to kill, then according to the Ten Commandments god is an evil god.

What is equally interesting is that if we are going to take the Old Testament as a guide for civil law, abortion would not be considered murder. The law regarding accidental death required a person to run to a city of refuge to be held on trial for murder. In the case of the accidental death of an unborn child the responsible party was simply required to pay a fine. If killing an unborn child was murder then the party would have had to run to a city of refuge.

And I'm still waiting to hear your thoughts on when abortion is acceptable. This claim that you haven't had enough time is no longer believable. Like I said before fundamentalism encourages lazy thinking.

[cardw]

"Thou shalt not Kill".

I do not see room for choice here?

I guess that negates the whole sacrificial system of the Old Testament since there is certainly a lot of killing going on there.

It also condemns god himself for ordering the Israelites to kill their enemies including innocent women and children.

[phkrause]

"Thou shalt not Kill".

I do not see room for choice here?

I don't buy that either. So tell me how many people don't kill? Are they choosing to do this? God has given us a right to choose period. If I feel like killing someone that's my right, but I will pay the consequence's of that choice will I not? That's all I'm saying, so don't me I have no choice. I have a choice to drink and than drive, do we not? Not any different. God allowed Lucifer to choose to do what he did. We were born with a right to choose.

Of course I accept the 10 Commandments, so yes I will not choose to kill, but I have the right to choose.

[phkrause]

[Tammy]

I don't think you understand.....without names, they are meaningless. They could be fake or madeup. If a person feels strongly about an issue then sign your name. You claim they are from the magazine, where is your proof. You are hurting your view point when you quote from anonymous sources. The source has no validity with out names.

The names are all there in the magazine...we just didn't reprint the names in our brochure...don't see it as necessary...look beyond the "names" to the babies that are being murdered...will it really matter if "John Smith" has his name attached?

[Tammy]

Go look up the quotes yourself...you will see their names there...

Can you think of any other excuse to not accept what is written?

[Stan]

everyone...

Conversation not confrontation

Please

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

―There is no way you can justify or explain

away the fact that SDA hospitals perform abor-

tions. Sickens me how you claim to be a true

church of God and preach about the Sabbath

yet totally ignore murder in your own hospitals.

You may be able to soothe your minds and

find ways to get around a blatant disregard of

truth, but I think you‘ll find it harder to explain

your ways to God when the time comes. Up-

holding the Sabbath is not going to excuse your

murdering on a daily basis. The true church of

God would not conform to the ways of the

world and the Seventh Day Adventists have. I

pity you.‖

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day-Adventists-2318/2010/8/abortions-1.htm

The person who made this quote is an admittant refuter of SDA beliefs. I don't take much stock in what someone like that says.

[doug yowell]

[What is interesting is that you are completely OK with god ordering the Israelites to kill innocent women and children, but you are against having any type of abortion.

THat's a little bit hasty,don'tcha think,Rich?First, as a Bible believing Christian,of course I have some questions about some of the situations in the Bible. On their face there are many things that I don't understand completely,but I trust that anyone who is willing to forgive my sins against Them, and can resurrect people from the dead,and can keep the universe from disintegrating, knows a little more about the workings of justice than I do. I'm not ready to call God out on a borderline play till I see the instant replay. But that's fodder for another thread,right? Furthermore,I'm safe on second (charge)cuz I don't oppose every type of abortion (I'm assuming you meant abortion for any reason). You missed the tag on that one.But I think we'll get to more of that later.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Tammy's "quotes"

―There is no way you can justify or explain

away the fact that SDA hospitals perform abor-

tions. Sickens me how you claim to be a true

church of God and preach about the Sabbath

yet totally ignore murder in your own hospitals.

You may be able to soothe your minds and

find ways to get around a blatant disregard of

truth, but I think you‘ll find it harder to explain

your ways to God when the time comes. Up-

holding the Sabbath is not going to excuse your

murdering on a daily basis. The true church of

God would not conform to the ways of the

world and the Seventh Day Adventists have. I

pity you.‖

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day-Adventists-2318/2010/8/abortions-1.htm

The person who made this quote is an admittant refuter of SDA beliefs. I don't take much stock in what someone like that says.

Which belief did they refute?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I WROTE that this person is an admittant refuter of SDA beliefs. That's what he says.

See: http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day-Adventists-2318/2010/8/abortions-1.htm

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Good grief. Doesn't anyone do any research on their own anymore???

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

And on top of that, Dr. Feldkamp is has NOT been verified as the owner of that abortion chain in California. See Snopes.com. I'm getting tired of that little piece of gossip.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: Tammy

The powerful part is where the quotes are from....Ministry Magazine.... the fact that this subject is even debated within Adventism, is incredible...who would have ever thought that a Church that teaches the 10 Commandments could be Pro-Choice? I just pray enough people read this brochure and that it causes a big enough stir that forces the Church to change their Pro-Choice stand.

Being pro-choice has no baring on being pro-abortion. I am for choice but am against abortion, so I don't buy that agrument. God created us with a right to choose. And those choice's will be what he will judge's us on.

I agree with pk.

[doug yowell]

What is equally interesting is that if we are going to take the Old Testament as a guide for civil law' date=' abortion would not be considered murder. The law regarding accidental death required a person to run to a city of refuge to be held on trial for murder. In the case of the accidental death of an unborn child the responsible party was simply required to pay a fine. If killing an unborn child was murder then the party would have had to run to a city of refuge.

[Guest]

I WROTE that this person is an admittant refuter of SDA beliefs. That's what he says.

See: http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day-Adventists-2318/2010/8/abortions-1.htm

Oh so he calls himself an expert at refuting SDA doctrine. I see. But that in itself doesn't automatically make what he said in that quote wrong.

I've read it several times now, and I can't really find a way to disagree with it.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I don't disagree with him being a proponent of refuting SDA doctrines either.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

The more natural reading of the text strongly suggests that if the baby dies,or suffers physical damage as a result of the "accidental" injury the culprit is to be punished likewise.Notice the "life for life" sentence on an accidental death in this case

ohhhh...that must be the justification of bombing and assassinating doctors and their assistants who perform abortions..

[doug yowell]

[And I'm still waiting to hear your thoughts on when abortion is acceptable. This claim that you haven't had enough time is no longer believable. Like I said before fundamentalism encourages lazy thinking.

Yeah, thanks for reminding me. Actually, I don't always have the time to post my answers quickly for several reasons:1)I'm a slow thinker and don't always feel equipped to give a reasoned answer in a short period of time.Some are quick and able to formulate their responses immediately--I'm not one of them.2)I have to share the computer with my 26 year old daughter who does her homework and her (most critical) Facebook communication until midnight on many occasions.3)When I work I usually get up between 5-5:30am and read my Bible as much as possible before I leave so I have little time to orchestrate a lengthy post.4)I'm a slow typer and don't know very much about how to utilize the computer for efficiency.5)I went out of town last weekend with my wife for 4 days and had no computer access in the motel/hotel that we stayed in.6)Sometimes I don't always have immediate access to documents that I need to present as evidence.7)I am a fundamentalist.

[doug yowell]

Like I said before fundamentalism encourages lazy thinking.

I can't agree with you here,Rich.Lazy thinking is encouraged by lazy thinkers.There are plenty of things that should encourage deeper thinking if one were disposed to pursue that challenge. You would have nothing to think deeply about if hadn't been challenged by fundamentalism,right? Unless you consider your own questioning of morals,ethics,and Christianity an exercise in lazy thinking, you should be honest and admit that fundamentalism has encouraged your critical thinking skills just as I am ready to confess that attacks on fundamentalism has encouraged my thinking.

[doug yowell]

And I'm still waiting to hear your thoughts on when abortion is acceptable.

Remember that I requested that you also share your thoughts on whether or not abortion is ever acceptable (or unacceptable)?Do we have a deal??

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

And I'm still waiting to hear your thoughts on when abortion is acceptable.

Remember that I requested that you also share your thoughts on whether or not abortion is ever acceptable (or unacceptable)?Do we have a deal??

I did you give you my thoughts. I stated that if we don't allow choice then in our current application of law doctors will have to choose to save a mother and risk being charged with murder.

I said there should be limits on when an abortion can be performed. We can evaluate this on the basis of suffering on the part of both the mother and at the point consciousness or the ability to feel pain by the fetus. These are rational discussions on ethics.

On the other hand you have stated that abortion should not be performed for any reason what so ever. And you stated that I was attacking a straw man.

I asked you to clear this up by stating when you considered abortion acceptable.