Pro-Abortion still on the aganda!!!

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

"Thou shalt not Kill".

I do not see room for choice here?

I guess that negates the whole sacrificial system of the Old Testament since there is certainly a lot of killing going on there.

It also condemns god himself for ordering the Israelites to kill their enemies including innocent women and children.

It says "THOU" shalt not kill.

It is not for man to take it upon himself to "kill".

But what does that word "kill" really mean?

It means "murder".

"Thou shalt not murder."

So man is not to "murder".

But God does intend to destroy sin and the sinners that attach themselves to it.

Whether that be the lake of fire, or in the history of mankind, God will destroy evil.

And what is "evil", it is "sin", and what is "sin"?

Independence from Love, selfishness.

And selfishness always seeks to denounce God and remove Love so that it can continue to do its own thing.

Selfishness always seeks to justify itself.

Selfishness seeks to deny responsibility to one another and all life.

Love has no choice but to remove it, once selfishness has had every opportunity to reveal its true nature.

When I understood that, many of the difficulties disappeared...

[Twilight]

I am a fundamentalist.

[Nic Samojluk]

Bud Feldkamp is an Adventist? … Also owns abortion clinics...?

[doug yowell]

The issue of abortion and Christian stand behind it is a rather silly issue that gets me weary thinking and discussing. It's what I call a "scapegoat cause", simply because it does not require anything but to pass legislation. So, you find Christians lining up behind it as a moral cause while there are hundreds of children dying from starvation worldwide every second.

So the intentional killing of tens of millions of unborn chidren every year is a silly issue but the unintentional deaths of a few hundred thousand impoverished children should be our all consuming focus? And the scapegoat issue,which neither the SDA church nor the government spends a single second or cent on is,abortion prevention??I think you need to get out more often,cool.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

But this is not simply a Christian/non-Christian issue. This is a human being issue,right? By the way, have you checked out the Athiests for Life website?

I did check out their site and they start their reasoning process from the assumption of non-violence. They assume that the fetus is a person. They argue from point of law. The owner and manager of the site is a conservative and a libertarian and he simply assumes that the fetus is a person with the full rights of a living person. They would certainly be in the minority of non-believers.

So you have evidence that athiests, who have rejected the fundamentalism that encourages lazy thinking,have arrived at the very same conclusions about the value of human life as those lazy thinking fundamentalists.What do you think encouraged their thinking? Why is their assumption of fetal personhood invalid? Who decides when a human being becomes a person? What universally accepted definition can we apply to a person?And it is not accurate to say that right-to-lifers wish to give the unborn the full rights of a living person unless you are specifically referring to the basic right to continue living.

[Nic Samojluk]

I think from what I've been reading online, this story has been posted everywhere...seems as everyone knows it, except Adventists... It makes me understand better, why we have not taken a Pro-Life stand, as a Church....money....

No wonder we have the well-known saying: “Follow the money.” Feldkamp is a millionaire, and he acquired his abortion clinics from another former Adventist named Edward C. Allred who became a millionaire thanks to the highly profitable abortion business.

The story you posted here about the Fedlkamp’s tragic loss has been on the Internet from day one. The Adventist media avoided to identify Feldkamp as the owner of those abortion clinics.

When someone sent me the link to this story, I decided to share it with some Adventists on my Email list. I made the mistake of including the name of my local Adventist pastor among them and used bad judgment in the timing of this. I received the strongest rebuke of my life. You may read the report of this online. The Internet link is:

Is Sharing a News Item a Cadinal Sin?

http://sdaforum.com/page245.html

[Nic Samojluk]

Why would the Catholics listen to what we have to say about the Sabbath, when they know that we have no respect, as a denomination, for life?

Excellent question! Rome altered the meaning of the Fourth Commandment of the Decalogue, and we-–the “Remnant” of God--have twisted the true meaning of the Sixth one beyond recognition.

[cardw]

So you have evidence that athiests, who have rejected the fundamentalism that encourages lazy thinking,have arrived at the very same conclusions about the value of human life as those lazy thinking fundamentalists.

[Nic Samojluk]

A devout Christian lady who found out at her 18-week ultrasound that her baby had no arms or legs, and severe brain deformities as well. After much heartache, prayer and soul-searching, she and her husband made the difficult decision that it was not fair to bring a child like that into the world.

[Nic Samojluk]

When I read the guidelines I get the impression that ending prenatal life by choice is of little consequence. I get the impression that whatever the pregnant woman chooses is perfectly acceptable and that the church will embrace her decision whatever it may be. And yet, in the same church smoking is a terrible sin, as is drinking alcohol, eating pork, working on the Sabbath, and a multitude of other deemed inappropriate behaviors. There are actions that are far less evil (i.e., adultery, thievery), IMO, that will get a person excommunicated from the church.

No doubt! We carefully indoctrinate baptismal candidates about the evils of smoking and drinking because they shorten the life of those addicted to those poisons. At the same time, we allow our physicians to administer poisons to kill innocent unborn babies. We help smokers quit their unhealthy habit hoping to extend their life by five or six years. A the same time, we cut short the life of healthy babies by eighty or ninety years. This inconsistency is so glaring, I fail to find the right words to describe this insane policy of ours.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: aubrey

When I read the guidelines I get the impression that ending prenatal life by choice is of little consequence. I get the impression that whatever the pregnant woman chooses is perfectly acceptable and that the church will embrace her decision whatever it may be. And yet, in the same church smoking is a terrible sin, as is drinking alcohol, eating pork, working on the Sabbath, and a multitude of other deemed inappropriate behaviors. There are actions that are far less evil (i.e., adultery, thievery), IMO, that will get a person excommunicated from the church.

No doubt! We carefully indoctrinate baptismal candidates about the evils of smoking and drinking because they shorten the life of those addicted to those poisons. At the same time, we allow our physicians to administer poisons to kill innocent unborn babies. We help smokers quit their unhealthy habit hoping to extend their life by five or six years. A the same time, we cut short the life of healthy babies by eighty or ninety years. This inconsistency is so glaring, I fail to find the right words to describe this insane policy of ours.

And who is gonna judge them? You or God. We have no idea as to why someone decided to have that abortion. Or do we? Only God knows the heart and the reason we make any decision not just to abort or not to. For each decision there is someone to answer to is there not? Or are we all in the same place in our walk with the Lord? Or don't we grow as we make good and bad decisions.

[Nic Samojluk]

Could you post a different set of standards which you believe we could use to replace the current unacceptable stance?

I would suggest that we go back to what was good for the Christian Church--and for the Adventist pioneers--for two millennia: No abortion unless there was unmistakable evidence that both the mother and her baby would die if the abortion was permitted to continue. A good example is ectopic pregnancy. There is no way a baby can survive outside of the uterus and the life of the pregnant woman is in a very serious jeopardy under such circumstances.

[bonnie]

Quote:

And who is gonna judge them? You or God. We have no idea as to why someone decided to have that abortion. Or do we? Only God knows the heart and the reason we make any decision not just to abort or not to. For each decision there is someone to answer to is there not? Or are we all in the same place in our walk with the Lord? Or don't we grow as we make good and bad decisions.

Are you of the opinion that to be opposed to abortion is sitting in judgement?

There are some pretty consistent statistics out there that gives a pretty good idea of why women opt for abortion.Rape and incest are a very small but not insignificent reason for abortion.For me,regardless of how conceived it is still a life and I don't believe I would opt for abortion.Having never been in that situation it is easy to say. All rape and incest pregnancy has to

agonizing for the mother but selective abortions because it is inconvenient is another story.To be opposed and to take a stand against that is not judging any one individual.Anymore than my opposition to alcohol is judging my alcoholic neighbor.

Statistically 93% of abortions are for social reasons or convenience.

[Nic Samojluk]

Abortion is clearly wrong!!! But euthanasia I think is alright because I don't want to see even my grandparents go through so much pain... it would be easier to pull the plug and let them die peacefully... What are your thoughts???

Have you heard about pain killers? Isn’t killing the pain more reasonable than killing your grandparents?

[Nic Samojluk]

Pregnancy out of wedlock does not carry the same stigma it did. There is an alternative to abortion and it is called adoption. That however makes a woman go thru 9 months of pregnancy.

Jesus spent nine months plus 3 years for our sake. Is nine months of inconvenience too much to ask from someone who is a follower of Jesus Christ? Jesus chose death for our sake. How does this compare with nine months of a less comfortable life?

[Nic Samojluk]

I worked in an Adventist hospital for four years and never had a patient who had had an abortion. I worked in several different departments. When I was doing my nursing clinicals, I didn't come across any patients who had had an abortion in the Adventist hospital.

Did you ever work for the Washington Adventist Hospital or the Castle Memorial Hospital where the Adventist offering of ELECTIVE abortion services for their patients started?

Did you read the report about the hundreds of abortions performed per year at the WAH? It was in the news over a decade ago.

Those news prompted a demonstration in front of said hospital with placards which read: “How about the Sixth Commandment?” This was reported by our Adventist “Spectrum” magazine.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

@ Nic Samojluk: I was wondering when you would come back to the forum with your warbonnet and tomahawk.

And who is gonna judge them? You or God. We have no idea as to why someone decided to have that abortion. Or do we? Only God knows the heart and the reason we make any decision not just to abort or not to. For each decision there is someone to answer to is there not? Or are we all in the same place in our walk with the Lord? Or don't we grow as we make good and bad decisions.

I agree wholeheartedly with pk.

@Nic Samojluk: where is your PROOF that Bud Feldkamp owns the line of abortion clinics that you keep throwing as stones? Snopes, with all their resources, could not determine that. Are you a better researcher than Snopes? I rather doubt it, considering your past educational forays.

[Stan]

there was a report out a few years that showed the actual number of abortions done in our hospitals, other than life saving to the mother.

As I recall, there are more posts in this thread than there were abortions for the entire year at all the hospitals put together, with most of the have zero or close to it.

[Nic Samojluk]

So you think it's ok to coerce a woman to remain pregnant or to terminate a pregnancy?

Not long ago, I asked a California Adventist physician who works for the state precisely that question. This is what he said: “I had a woman who came to me demanding an abortion for a viable unborn baby. I had her imprisoned until the baby was born in order to protect the baby from being killed.” You will probably think that this is a pro-life doctor. He is not. He believes that abortion should be legal up to the point of viability.

[Nic Samojluk]

I personally am against abortion, unless there are some very personal reason, like rape and if the pregnacy is going to kill the mother, etc. But having said that I'm pro-choice. I believe that God created us with a mind for choice. And God will judge us on those choice's. And as its been said before if you are pro-life you have no choice but if you are pro-choice you always have a choice. At least that's the way I see it. I'm not sure what the Adventist church backs, but I believe that they believe that it is something that is between each individual and God, and nobody else's business.

Are you also pro-choice regarding other moral issues like stealing, rape, and sexual abuse of children? If not, why not? And remember that the long term consequences of such crimes are not as serious as the dismemberment of an innocent unborn child. A victim of rape, for example, may with time heal her wounds and lead an almost normal life. Such privilege is denied the victims of abortion. Those who are aborted will never recover from their ordeal. Abortion is an irreversible act.

Should burglars, rapists, and those who sexually abuse children be entitled to choice without society interference with their freedom? Is it fair to imprison burglars and rapist, but condemn to death innocent babies who have committed no crime?

[phkrause]

Are you also pro-choice regarding other moral issues like stealing, rape, and sexual abuse of children? If not, why not? And remember that the long term consequences of such crimes are not as serious as the dismemberment of an innocent unborn child. A victim of rape, for example, may with time heal her wounds and lead an almost normal life. Such privilege is denied the victims of abortion. Those who are aborted will never recover from their ordeal. Abortion is an irreversible act.

Should burglars, rapists, and those who sexually abuse children be entitled to choice without society interference with their freedom? Is it fair to imprison burglars and rapist, but condemn to death innocent babies who have committed no crime?

I am for choice period. Don't care about pro this or pro that. That is a man made term. God create us with the ability to choose to do whatever we want. But we will have consequence's for what we choose. There will be either eternal life or extension when the world comes to an end!!!!! And that will be God judging us for those choice's not you or anyone else. I'm not saying that we can't judge a situation as to how we see it. But salvation is God's judgment, period.

[Nic Samojluk]

The Adventist church takes a position on abortion that indicates behavior which is believed to be sinful. The church takes a clear position on the sin issue. Abortion to choose the sex of the child, for birth control or convenience is sinful. That makes up over 90% of the abortions that occur in the US. So the church's position is that over 90% of the abortions that occur in the US are sinful.

The church speaks from both sides of her mouth. It says that “Abortion to choose the sex of the child, for birth control or convenience is sinful,” and then makes a list of circumstances under which it is acceptable to provide an abortion: rape, incest, when the pregnant female is a minor, when the pregnancy interferes with the professional vocation of the woman, and even when the unplanned pregnancy affects her mental health.

What good is the church’s claim that birth control for convenience is sinful if abortion is morally justified under such a variety of situations? How many women have you known who would not be mentally depressed when faced with an unplanned pregnancy? Do you think that a woman under such a circumstance would have a hard time finding an abortionist willing o provide her with an abortion?

Do you think that the church would be willing to allow for such a long list of exceptions when dealing with larceny, burglary, rape, incest, and the sexual abuse of children. Why are we so lenient with those whose business is the dismemberment of innocent unborn babies, but will not put up with crimes of less serious consequences? Society does incarcerate those who steal material things from us, but those who take the life of innocent human beings have the blessing of both the church and state. Dos this makes sense to you?

[Dr. Shane]

there was a report out a few years that showed the actual number of abortions done in our hospitals, other than life saving to the mother.

As I recall, there are more posts in this thread than there were abortions for the entire year at all the hospitals put together, with most of them have zero or close to it.

Thank you, Stan.

The church has only one position of abortion. The church doesn't speak out of both sides of its mouth. The church allows local hospital boards and directors to make decisions. There may be a handful of hospitals that do not abide by the church's guidelines on abortion. I wish all of them did but I certainly don't want Maryland micromanaging all of our hospitals.

[Nic Samojluk]

I also doubt the accuracy of the post made earlier in this thread about the GC president's comments.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

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