Pro-Abortion still on the aganda!!!

[Nic Samojluk]

There isn't even Biblical support for that because the Bible, incorrectly in my opinion, treats an unborn child as property, not a person.

Yes, and women and slaves were treated as property. Blacks were treated as property as recently as prior to the Civil

War. Can we conclude from this that women and slaves can be aborted?

[Nic Samojluk]

God created us with free will -- the right to make our own choices. The least we can do is grant our neighbor that same right.

I am free to steal to rape and to sexually abuse little children. Nevertheless, there are serious consequences if I decide to exercise said freedom to do what is wrong. Can someone tell me why, in the case of abortion some people argue that there should be no undesirable consequences to dismembering an innocent unborn baby?

[Nic Samojluk]

Anti-Abortion implies that there is no case where abortion is allowed.

How about, No abortions unless both the mother and her baby are doomed to die. Saving one life instead of loosing two is still pro-life.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

-deleted-

[Dr. Shane]

The argument of choice is a very weak and really silly argument. We have laws against child abuse. Many do argue that this takes away the parent's right of choice when it comes to disciplining their own children. So do those that are pro-choice favor child abuse laws (removing the parent's choice) or do they oppose them?

[Nic Samojluk]

Being pro-choice has no bearing on being pro-abortion. I am for choice but am against abortion, so I don't buy that argument. God created us with a right to choose. And those choice's will be what he will judge's us on.

What would you say to the man whose addiction is rape, or burglary, or child sexual abuse. Like taking the life of innocent people, these activities are forbidden by God. Would you tell such a man that you defend his right to choose? If he were to steal your car, would you defend his right to choose, or would you call the police? Why do people make an exception when killing is involved?

[Nic Samojluk]

I don't think you understand.....without names, they are meaningless. They could be fake or madeup. If a person feels strongly about an issue then sign your name. You claim they are from the magazine, where is your proof. You are hurting your view point when you quote from anonymous sources. The source has no validity with out names.

This is a fair request. My guess is that most of the references will be found in the documents listed below, because abortion and the Adventist Church was the topic of my investigation.

I took the trouble of reading all the comments people made about abortion which were published by our “Ministry” magazine—favorable and critical—between 1970 and 2006, and I included them there.

I just counted 96 of them. The magazine references are at the end of each of these two chapters. Of course, you can read the actual quotes, and you can read the entire dissertation as well; or you can read the conclusion listed a the end of the document.

If you take the time to do this, let me know what you think.

V. THE GREAT CONTROVERSY

http://letsfocusonlife.com/?page_id=729

VI. THE GREAT CONTROVERSY [iI]

http://letsfocusonlife.com/?page_id=731

[Nic Samojluk]

What is interesting is that you are completely OK with god ordering the Israelites to kill innocent women and children, but you are against having any type of abortion.

[Nic Samojluk]

The person who made this quote is an admittant refuter of SDA beliefs. I don't take much stock in what someone like that says.

You are right; nevertheless, what he says can be corroborated by reading what our Ministry magazine and Spectrum have published regarding this issue. If you are in doubt, read my report which is online:

http://letsfocusonlife.com/?page_id=717

[doug yowell]

[if you read what I posted you would understand that they made no attempt at forming a rational explanation for their position. They simply did what fundamentalists do. They start with the ASSUMPTION that a fetus is a person at conception.

Your entire argument is based on your own subjective conclusions. It is impossible to rationally discuss any topic with one who begins with the assumption that everyone who arrives at a different conclusion than the one they hold has not thought out their position. You assume that they made no attempt to form a rational explanation,why? You assert (falsely) that they believe that their definition of life is "any grouping of cells",why did you do this?You didn't answer the question of where we can find a universally accepted definition of personhood, you simply created your own and then criticized others for doing the same. Why is your definition, which you have not attempted to defend, any more rational than theirs?Since no one aborts a growing baby before the 8th week of pregnancy,when does that "group of cells" now take on personhood (your definition of personhood),when it's viable outside the womb,after it's born,when we can determine that it can feel pain,when we decide that it's wanted??Are you willing to defend your definition?

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: True-believer

Abortion is clearly wrong!!! But euthanasia I think is alright because I don't want to see even my grandparents go through so much pain... it would be easier to pull the plug and let them die peacefully... What are your thoughts???

Have you heard about pain killers? Isn’t killing the pain more reasonable than killing your grandparents?

Pulling the plug is not the same as giving them a cyanide capsule.

[Stan]

If this has been stated already, please forgive me.

Which of all the adventist hospitals in the US perform abortions and which ones do not?

AND how many a year?

I would think there would be enough current information to start a thread like this.

[doug yowell]

[The church speaks from both sides of her mouth. It says that “Abortion to choose the sex of the child, for birth control or convenience is sinful,” and then makes a list of circumstances under which it is acceptable to provide an abortion: rape, incest, when the pregnant female is a minor, when the pregnancy interferes with the professional vocation of the woman, and even when the unplanned pregnancy affects her mental health.

Actually, it is inaccurate to say that the church "guidelines" identify elective abortion as sinful. The officially unofficial reference states "we do not condone..." Big difference. Imagine applying that terminology to our "guidelines" on smoking??

[doug yowell]

If this has been stated already, please forgive me.

Which of all the adventist hospitals in the US perform abortions and which ones do not?

AND how many a year?

I would think there would be enough current information to start a thread like this.

I think this is a legitimate question. Given the church's stand and the autonomy is gives each institution I doubt that the figures could be accurately discovered without months or years of investigative work.Who's got the time or interest to pursue this story?Since most elective abortions can be more easily obtained at a Feldcamp facility, or Planned Parenthood,where no questions are asked, the figures are likely to be small. Would that let the church off the hook? I'm not holding my breath on this one.

[doug yowell]

[if you take the time to do this, let me know what you think.

V. THE GREAT CONTROVERSY

http://letsfocusonlife.com/?page_id=729

VI. THE GREAT CONTROVERSY [iI]

http://letsfocusonlife.com/?page_id=731

Ther have been many published comments in other SDA publications,too.Liberty magazine was one that was involved during the analysis of the Roe v. Wade/Doe v.Bolton rulings, and later in the 80's and 90's. And these are just the letters that were published.I'm sure every SDA union publication covered the issue as well.

[Nic Samojluk]

And on top of that, Dr. Feldkamp is has NOT been verified as the owner of that abortion chain in California. See Snopes.com. I'm getting tired of that little piece of gossip.

I am glad you are bringing this up. It will give us a chance to investigate and to weigh the evidence. If the information is in error, we will have an opportunity to correct it.

I don’t know about the race track, but I have credible evidence that Dr. Feldkamp made a sizable financial investment into the large number of California abortion clinics which were originally started by Dr. Edward C Allred. My understanding is that Feldkamp is not the sole owner of those abortion clinics, but rather that the owner is a group of investors.

A friend of mine, who is very close to the Feldkamp family and to those who perished in the airplane crash, told me that when Allred offered his abortion business for sale, a relative of his was invited by Feldkamp to participate in the business venture, but he objected and refused.

Besides, the Feldkamp family is very well known in the Loma Linda community. When the story of the airplane tragedy came out in he news and Feldkamp connection to the abortion industry was revealed, I decided to send en Email with a link to the story to those I had on my Email list, all people very familiar with Loma Linda, none of the recipients questioned the Feldkamp’s connection with the abortion business.

I did check the “Snopes” source and it states that they are still trying to verify the information. I tried to copy the statement they have, but copying is not allowed from their site. I counted 18 clinics under the Family Planning and Associates Medical Group. Here is the link to their site:

Family Planning Associates Medical Group - Abortion Clinics in Southern California

http://www.fpamg.net/

Since you question Feldkamp’s connection with abortion, I suggest that you contact the “Family Planning Associates Medical Group” and ask them whether he still has any connection with said organization.

You can also probably locate him at the Azure Hills Adventist Church. They have an Internet presence. You can contact the pastor and ask him to verify this information. He may have moved his church membership elsewhere, but if this is the case, the pastor would be able to lead you in the right direction.

Good luck in your investigation and please share with us what you discover.

[Nic Samojluk]

No the natural reading of it refers to whether the mother suffers injury or not. A premature birth is a death. They didn't have infant ICUs back then.

I don’t know how young you are, but I am almost 80, and I do remember cases of premature birth of babies when I was very young who survived the ordeal. It all depends on how premature babies are.

[Nic Samojluk]

It appears that the anti-abortion message is not working very well. Shame rarely does.

This statement contradicts the information I have seen. Yesterday I read a report claiming that half of the abortion clinics have closed thanks to the efforts of the pro-life movement.

[Nic Samojluk]

So, you find Christians lining up behind it as a moral cause while there are hundreds of children dying from starvation worldwide every second.

[phkrause]

If one of your sons were threatened by a killer and another one of your sons were hungry. Which would you try to protect first? Would you rush to feed your hungry son, or would first save the life of the one on the verge of being killed? I am calling for common sense here!

I'd help the one who was being threatened to be killed first, the other one can go hungry a few more hours or so. I think your analogy makes no sense.

[Nic Samojluk]

The fetus is obviously alive and is human because it has human DNA, but so does our hair and we have it cut periodically, but we don't call it murder.

[Twilight]

When you look at the bible, God wiped out many societies that were practicing Child Sacrifice.

We have now become such a pagan society, that we do the same.

Child Sacrifice is the crime of killing a child for the convenience of the parents in most cases.

Abortion is the same thing.

Abortion is child sacrifice.

And the world is practicing it with such abandon that would have made the old nations applaud in admiration no doubt...

:-(

[Nic Samojluk]

People are more concerned about "the cause" than the people themselves, and that what bothers me. The seem to care very little what happens when these fetuses are born... as long as they are born.

I have the impression that this is a misrepresentation of what is actually taking place. I believe that Christians are the most generous people as far as charity work is concerned. True Christians do care about the right to life of every unborn baby and they also care about the welfare of those who are hungry and naked.

Now that I have said this, let me share with you what is a fundamental concern of mine: We Adventists do claim to be the light of the world, we claim to be the “Remnant” of God who keep God’s Commandments, and yet we advocate women’s right to violate one of God’s Ten Rules. This destroys the credibility of the SDA Church.

We do blame Rome for having altered the true meaning of the Sabbath Commandment, but we have done the same to the one forbidding the killing of innocent human beings. This needs to be stopped. Tammy and Al have started doing something about this by publishing the “The Church and Abortion” pamphlet. Can we contribute to their efforts to stop this madness evidenced by what is taking place in some of our hospitals?

Somebody needs to do something and very soon. If not us, who will? We need to support Ted Wilson’s plan to implement a revival and reformation in the Adventist community of faith. We need to start by cleaning our own house. We need to remove the black eye of abortion from God's church.Shall we?

[Nic Samojluk]

And who is gonna judge them? You or God. We have no idea as to why someone decided to have that abortion.

Excelent question. Would you use the same reasoning if someone decided to steal your car or your bank account, or raped your sister or daughter?

A car and a bank account can be replaced. A raped girl or woman can eventually heal with God’s grace an lead an almost normal life. This an aborted baby cannot do. For the aborted baby the action is final and irreversible.

Nevertheless, you seem to value your wallet and your car more seriously than the life of a human being! Can you help me understand this seemingly anomalous way of thinking?

[Nic Samojluk]

@Nic Samojluk: where is your PROOF that Bud Feldkamp owns the line of abortion clinics that you keep throwing as stones? Snopes, with all their resources, could not determine that. Are you a better researcher than Snopes? I rather doubt it, considering your past educational forays.

Thanks for correcting me! I did answer this question earlier today. Keep reading. My sources tell me that Feldkamp made a sizable financial investment into this California chain of 18 abortion clinics. This means that he should not be described as the owner of those clinics. It looks like the actual owner is a groups of investors. Snopes is still trying to document this. Besides, he might have sold his interest in said clinics to somebody else by now.

Thanks for correcting me. It helps when people like you ask the right questions. So, keep up the good work, and thanks for some of the constructive criticism about my doctoral dissertation in another forum. I did listen to what you said and I am currently editing said document with the hope of eventually publishing it in book form.