Remnant Theology... the downcast of Adventism

[Stan]

Please do not get me wrong, i firmly believe that the Adventist Church is the Remnant Church, that it has the most important message of Justification by Faith, the Three Angeles Messages, the SOP and the rest of the Big 27.

But the Remnant Theology., where you get 'extra points' for being an Adventist is killing the work. Where being RIGHT is more important than kindness is evil. Too many people will enter their grave without forwarding the work.

What we do NOT get, is a question page of 27 questions on JUDGMENT day, and we only get entrance if we answer those 100%.

• What we get when we join the Adventist Church is more responsibility to prepare people for the second coming of Christ.
• What we get is more responsibly in most areas of our life.
• What we get is the Great Commission.
• What we get I is the true Character of God that is revealed in the Big 27, and our God is awesome and loving..

What we do NOT get is a question page of 27 questions on JUDGMENT day, and only get entrance who answer those 100%.

To paraphrase parts of 1 Corinthians 13, "If I have all Truth, all wisdom in biblical things, but have not love... then I am in HUGE trouble on Judgment day.

Thoughts?

[Dr. Shane]

Excellent points made. While I believe the Advent church is the remnant, I think our Biblical basis for that is rather weak and it shouldn't be an area of study in our Prophecy Seminars but rather be an area of advanced study like the special resurection.

Love is what it is all about. Helping others. I love Nicole Nordeman's song Legacy.

I don't mind if you've got something nice to say about me

And I enjoy an accolade like the rest

You could take my picture and hang it in a gallery

Of all the who's who and so-n-so's that used to be the best

At such 'n such...it wouldn't matter much

I won't lie, it feels alright to see your name in lights

We all need an "Atta boy" or "Atta girl"

But in the end I'd like to hang my hat on more besides

the temporary trappings of this world

Chorus:

I want to leave a legacy

How will they remember me?

Did I choose to love?

Did I point to you enough to make a mark on things?

I want to leave an offering

A child of mercy and grace who blessed Your name unapologetically

And leave that kind of legacy

I don't have to look too far or too long awhile

To make a lengthy list of all that I enjoy

It's an accumulating trinket and a treasure pile

Where moth and rust, thieves and such will soon destroy

Chorus

Not well traveled, not well read, not well-to-do or well bred

Just want to hear instead, "Well done" good and faithful one

[aldona]

With all due respect to you both, gentlemen, I do not believe that "the remnant" and "the SDA church" are the same. I believe that part of the SDA church may constitute part of the remnant, which will also contain many people from other faiths.

My understanding has always been that one group or denomination claiming that they ALONE are "THE REMNANT" is the hallmark of a cult.

Is there anyone else who thinks this way too, or am I a lone heretic here?

aldona

[Gregory Matthews]

I believe that God has called the SDA Chruch into existance, for a specific purpose, at a specific time in earth (salvation) history.

Having said that, because the word "remenant" has become emotionally loaded, and a point of needless contention, I don't normally use it.

[Naomi]

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I believe that part of the SDA church may constitute part of the remnant, which will also contain many people from other faiths.

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Absolutely ... I agree!

[Naomi]

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I believe that God has called the SDA Chruch into existance, for a specific purpose, at a specific time in earth (salvation) history.

Having said that, because the word "remenant" has become emotionally loaded, and a point of needless contention, I don't normally use it.

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Well-said Gregory. As you said, I also do not use the word "remnant" in my discussions and/or conversations concerning our Church.

As a denomination we have much to contribute to concluding the work on this earth, and I believe for the most part we are doing an excellent job. However, using descriptive words that can create emotional barriers or hostilities ... which in any way would make another traveler feel ill at ease can destroy many good works. People observe our actions and lock on to trigger words. We are responsible for the appearance we project in our representation as a Christian.

As a member of the family of God I often find myself doing a lot of prayerful self-investigation; do I reflect an image worthy of God's approval?

[Stan]

The Remnant is about the message that is carried.

[Stan]

As I reflect on this, I think the remnant message is more about revealing the true Character of God

[Gregory Matthews]

The message, in my estimation, for God's church in the last days is found in Revelation 14:6-11.

Unfortunately, many within the SDA Chruch believe that the message God wants proclaimed in the last days is an attack on the Roman Catholic Chruch.

I do not think the above is a focus of Revelation 14:6-11.

[bevin]

I agree, Aldona.

The way the SDA church uses "remnant" is a combination of arrogance and insult.

My reading of Revelation is different. I think it has only ONE woman. That woman represents all the people that claim to be God's. A fundamental message of Revelation is that all organizations become entangled with the world to the point where they can not claim to be God's organization.

The 'remnant' is a disorganized underground group of people, not an organization.

/Bevin

[Dr. Shane]

The Bible is pretty clear about who the remnant is, or at least what they believe. The remnant keeps the Commandments and hold the testimony of Jesus. Adventists tend to teach the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy which includes EG White. While that may be true, I think it safe to say there are other Sabbath-keeping, Christian churches that have the spirit of prophecy which is limited (for them) to the Biblical prophets. I happen to believe the rememnat is simply the Commandment-keeping Christian churches which obviously the Adventist church is the largest.

Interesting that Adventists believe that not only are they (we) the remnant but also the church of Laodicea. Which means we have the Truth but lack Its transforming grace.

[Nicodema]

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But the Remnant Theology., where you get 'extra points' for being an Adventist is killing the work. Where being RIGHT is more important than kindness is evil. Too many people will enter their grave without forwarding the work....

Thoughts?

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... the word "remnant" literally refers to the leftover scraps of cloth, the ends that nobody else wanted or needed at the end of a bolt of fabric. Frequently they are worn, frayed and faded and not big enough to make a decent garment from. They are generally used for patching or for small projects that don't matter terribly much.

Now doesn't that make ya feel special?

[Stan]

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The 'remnant' is a disorganized underground group of people, not an organization.

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I have a tough time seeing that go to the ends of the earth, to every kindred nation etc

That would be effective as any profession, medical, dental etc being a dissorganized underground group..

[bevin]

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I have a tough time seeing that go to the ends of the earth, to every kindred nation etc

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A disorganized group spread the gospel throughout Asia Minor in about 10 years.

A combination of Protestant (including SDA), Roman Catholic, and non-affiliated Christians are spreading the gospel all over the world today. Consider, for instance, http://www.wycliffe.org/

It is not the organizations that spread the word, it is individuals. The Bible does not say that a single organization will do the spreading...

/Bevin

[Nicodema]

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My reading of Revelation is different. I think it has only ONE woman. That woman represents all the people that claim to be God's. A fundamental message of Revelation is that all organizations become entangled with the world to the point where they can not claim to be God's organization.

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I think there is a great deal of truth to this. The issue is not war between an hermetically-sealed eternally-pure woman and a scarlet wh*re Babylon -- but rather how the once pure woman becomes the wh*re. "How is the faithful city become an harlot!" etc.

Stan mentioned not being able to envision the message going to all the world, every kindred, nation, tongue, people, etc. as a "disorganized underground movement". However, scripture indicates there is something of a mystery here. Check out Philippians 1:12-18:

12 Now I want you to know, brothers, that what has happened to me has really served to advance the gospel. 13 As a result, it has become clear throughout the whole palace guard and to everyone else that I am in chains for Christ. 14 Because of my chains, most of the brothers in the Lord have been encouraged to speak the word of God more courageously and fearlessly.

15 It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16 The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.

See, Paul was in chains for the sake of the gospel, as will be the scattered members of the Body of Christ in the last days. And yet, despite the conflicting and diverse motives involved with regard to human beings preaching the gospel, in one way or another, Christ was preached, and to Paul, that was what really mattered. The work was getting done even if it was getting done by wheat and tares "in tandem".

Visibly the Church will be the field full of both wheat AND tares, but INVISIBLY where there is wheat only, no human eye can discern. Hence the notion of "scattered" members. No visible human institution can be pure, but I do still hold to the notion that the Church is the object of Christ's supreme regard on earth, and that it is God's will for it to be a sanctuary and a house of prayer for all His children.

[aka]

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With all due respect to you both, gentlemen, I do not believe that "the remnant" and "the SDA church" are the same. I believe that part of the SDA church may constitute part of the remnant, which will also contain many people from other faiths.

My understanding has always been that one group or denomination claiming that they ALONE are "THE REMNANT" is the hallmark of a cult.

Is there anyone else who thinks this way too, or am I a lone heretic here?

aldona

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I'm with you on this aldona. Two years ago I came to this settlement in thinking myself. Word for word as you put it is my present conviction.

Turmeric

[aka]

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I believe that God has called the SDA Chruch into existance, for a specific purpose, at a specific time in earth (salvation) history.

Having said that, because the word "remnant" has become emotionally loaded, and a point of needless contention, I don't normally use it.

Gregory

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EXACTLY! My sentiments as well completely.

Also a wave to Naomi for I am likeminded with her comments.

Turmeric

[Dr. Shane]

I am not embarrassed of my faith or the doctrines it teaches. It is completely understandable how the Adventist church can see itself as the remnant. They honor all the Commandments and the gift of prophecy has greatly influenced the denomination. Moreover God has always had a remnant. However being part of the remnant does not give anyone special previledges but rather it gives us special responsibilites.

As I mentioned before, I think this is a doctrine that should be taught in advanced Bible studies and not in the typical prophecy seminar. I think this is also in the baptismal vows which I don't think is nessasary.

[Gerr]

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With all due respect to you both, gentlemen, I do not believe that "the remnant" and "the SDA church" are the same. I believe that part of the SDA church may constitute part of the remnant, which will also contain many people from other faiths.

My understanding has always been that one group or denomination claiming that they ALONE are "THE REMNANT" is the hallmark of a cult.

Is there anyone else who thinks this way too, or am I a lone heretic here?

aldona

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[:"blue"]I believe, as Greg says, that God called out the SDAC into existence. Having said that, I believe that the SDAC is the visible organization-remnant in Gods plan to finish His work on this earth. The SDAC, I believe, has a God-given end-time message to preach to "every kindred tongue and people". I do not believe for one moment that every SDAC member is saved or the only ones saved. The invisible remnant, those who are truly saved, is made up of ALL the faithful believers from every denomination or even people of NO denomination. [/]

Gerry

[Nicodema]

I basically concur with Aldona, Turmeric, Gregory and Gerry herein. I do believe what became the SDAC was raised up as a movement for a purpose. I believe the purpose is still valid, and the organized SDAC has a role in fulfilling it.

However I have seen an increasing inclination toward the cessation of dwelling in tabernacles and the erection of temples taking its place (in the institutionalized organization, in areas of doctrine, structure, function, position, etc.) and this disquiets me. The Israelites were to dwell in tents (ready to jam at a moment's notice) until they reached the Promised Land -- and last I checked, we are Not There Yet.

I have also seen some awakenings here and there of others who are grasping things our spiritual progenitors grasped 150 years ago. They don't always form the same conclusions or apply it in the same directions, but at least they are studying independently and it appears they are being led by the Spirit toward a potential eschatological convergence.

I think Yeshua made it plain with the parable of the wheat and tares. The visible field will never be tare-free till the Harvest separates one from the other. The visible field in this case is the SDAC but it can be any visible, organized church institution spreading the gospel. These have a role to play in providing frameworks for children of God to find their calling and ministry within as well as fellowship communities, distribution centers of shared resources, etc. But to state that any given org by name is THE remnant to the exclusion of all else? I'm with Aldona, it's a little too cultic for my taste. I'm comfortable with the idea that God will -- and does -- have a "remnant people" at the end of time, and that He knows His own, and that as the conflict heats up, His own will be revealed.

[Dr. Shane]

Cult is one of those buzz words that people like to throw around. If I am in a cult, Jesus is the leader of it. The Bible makes it clear as to to who the remnant is.

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandmanets of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Rev. 12:17

"I am thy fellowservant, and of the brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy" Rev. 19:10

"Here are the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." Rev. 14:12

[Nicodema]

Brother Shane, I wasn't trying to use the word "cult" in a derogatory sense toward you. I apologize if anything I wrote inadvertently gave that impression.

Strictly speaking, Christianity itself began as a "cult" -- a shared system of belief amongst a small group of adherents -- at its inception. And you are correct that it does get thrown around as a buzzword.

[Robert]

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Please do not get me wrong, I firmly believe that the Adventist Church is the Remnant Church, that it has the most important message of Justification by Faith, the Three Angeles Messages, the SOP and the rest of the Big 27.

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I realize that Ellen White referred the SDA Church as the remnant, but you must look at HER context to get a clear understanding.... Even so, we must use the Bible for it supercedes Mrs. White.

That being said, I must fully disagree that the church of today (i.e., the SDA church) is the remnant church of Bible prophecy. Here's why:

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an everlasting gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people; 7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”

8 And another angel, a second one, followed, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon [apostate Christianity] the great, she who has made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of her immorality [her false gospel].”

9 And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God [the 2nd death], which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger....12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Please note the chronological events:

1] The gospel must be fully restored [this is just now beginning to happen within the SDA Church]

2] When # 1 happens there will be two camps within Christianity....Those who remain in Babylon [salvation by works] and those who come out of Babylon [the remnant]

3] The remnant, after it is formed, will be present the third angel's message [justification by faith] to the world. Note I said the world, not the apostate churches who have fallen.

4] The remnant will be reflecting Christ's love as seen in the early Christian church (see Acts 4:32) and not merely mechanically keeping rules....

The remnant is clearly formed after the restoration of the gospel....It [the restored gospel] is first presented within the Christian church....Those who reject it constitute Babylon and will fall from grace. Those who accept it constitute the remnant. They [the remnant] will be reflecting Christ's life and His power will attend the message of justification by faith to the world at large.

So no, you guys aren't the remnant - you are Laodicea!

Sorry,

Rob

[Robert]

Let me state a bit more....

EGW: "I asked the meaning of the shaking ["the falling away"] I had seen, and was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans. This will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver, and will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. Some will not bear this straight testimony. They will rise up against it, and this will cause a shaking among God's people.--1T 181 (1857)."

According to the Bible, what is "the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans"?

Rev 3:14 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:...17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” [:"red"]and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked[/], 18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire [faith], that you may become rich, and white garments [the robes of Christ's righteousness], that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness [robes of our own righteousness] may not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes, that you may see. 19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; be zealous therefore, and repent.

[Bravus]

I've always had a Venn diagram mental model of the remnant, where all the Christian denominations are circles that don't overlap (at least for this purpose), and then the remnant overlaps all of them to a greater or lesser degree. I mean, *Luther* was all about justification by faith, so there must be Lutherans in the remnant, and so on...

I think Stan's original point is well made: identifying any particular denomination with the remnant is unhealthy because it can lead to complacency and a smug sense of superiority. Recognising that God has people everywhere is also a much more hopeful, inclusive perspective.