Robert Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 Quote: I mean, *Luther* was all about justification by faith, so there must be Lutherans in the remnant, and so on... True, with respect to the legalism being presented by the RCC...Luther taught justification by faith.... However, the gospel - the true gospel - must precede the message of JBF in order to be truly understood. Yeah...Luther taught we are justified by faith and not the deeds of the law, but what he didn't teach (because he didn't know) is how sinners are legally justified without doing away with the foundation of God's eternal law. He didn't understand the gospel - how Christ legally saved mankind from His own law that justly condemns them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 It is not that complicated, Brother Robert. It is so easy little commentary is needed. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 Quote: It is not that complicated, Brother Robert. It is so easy little commentary is needed. God cannot sin! There, that's simple. If He states that sinner must die, then the sinner must die. Christ is not the sinner....For Christ to die instead of us creates two problems, 1] It makes the law a joke because it bypasses its demands for justice. Essentially it makes the law void (as many churches teach).... 2] The law cannot condemn an innocent man. That is injustice.... When the police officer let's you go for speeding, he is actually breaking the law (or he is practicing partiality). Now if He paid the bill for you then the law has been satisfied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 Quote: he is actually breaking the law Actually, no he is not. The law states that, if you speed, you MAY be fined. It is not a requirement. The police-officer is perfectly within his rights to give you 50cents and tell you to go get a cup of coffee. Quote: Now if He paid the bill for you then the law has been satisfied. In the case of a fine, it is obviously possible for anyone to give you money for you to use to pay the fine - but YOU are still paying the fine. If there is a jail or death sentence passed, or even some kind of community service sentence, then the police officer CAN NOT do it for you. You are not allowed to have someone else do your sentence. Furthermore man-made laws are not the same as physical laws. Man-made laws are allowed to have exceptions, be inconsistent, be changed, be ignored, ... Physical laws by definition can not have an exception, if there is an exception it proves that the law is wrong, not the universe. You are arguing about things that you can not perform experiments on. You are making claims that are based purely on your overly literal understanding of the Bible and poor analogies with things around you. /Bevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 Quote: Quote: he is actually breaking the law Actually, no he is not. The law states that, if you speed, you MAY be fined. Well we know earthly laws are biased and have injustice. Take the death penalty for example....The rich man generally gets off while the poor fries....But that's My analogy using the policeman was just that.... Assuming the law states the man who speeds must be fined, and the police officer let's him go, he has broken the law - he has made it void. If Christ died instead of you, then why even die? He could have just said, "I forgive you" and set aside the law's demands. But we all know He fulfilled the law in every aspect and that includes justice. Quote: you are making claims that are based purely on your overly literal understanding of the Bible .... Oh, I forgot...let's turn to the scientist for the final word. As for me, I stand by Paul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 Quote: You are arguing about things that you can not perform experiments on. You are making claims that are based purely on your overly literal understanding of the Bible and poor analogies with things around you. Bevin, how do you understand the death of Christ and its place or meaning in the plan of salvation? How do you understand salvation to work or happen, what do you believe we are saved from or for? I'd like to hear your take on it if you feel like sharing -- either here or over on the other thread about "Can Justification Be Lost?" Thanks! Nico Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 God's apparent overall goal here is a universe without sin - a universe where intelligent beings live together in harmony and without destroying anything that should not be destroyed [aside - God obviously loves fireworks, and doesn't mind colliding galaxies to get them - so I am not going to enter into a discussion on what it is ok to destroy]. Obviously our current world doesn't fit in such a universe. God is doing something to create it - and apparently that something involves the resurrection and glorification of dead humans. So Jesus death apparently performs too basic functions It is a PR exercise - "if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me" or words to that effect It results in a fundamental change to how the intelligent beings in the universe regard sin. Apparently it is needed, for some deep reason well beyond my full understanding, to create a universe that is sin-free. The following argument is, too me, quite compelling. (1) God would have made an interesting sin-free universe if He could (2) He didn't (3) therefore He couldn't (4) So apparently He did the next best thing, created a universe that has a transient period of sin in it, and got involved in that universe in a way that will eliminate the sin. To be blunt, I am not particularly good at creating universes. I don't know why God could not create an interesting sin-free one, nor do I know why Jesus death is a requirement to clean up the one one we got. But I can make a guess - my guess is that the KNOWLEDGE of sin is necessary for not sinning. Before Satan, there was no knowledge of sin. After the 3rd coming, the universe will be perfect and contain genuine knowledge of sin - and no sane being would want to go back there again. /Bevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Quote: After the 3rd coming, the universe will be perfect and contain genuine knowledge of sin - and no sane being would want to go back there again. Bevin, what do you think happens to insane beings then? Do they get to be cured of insanity if they can't make themselves stop being insane? or are they euthanized in the lake of fire? I can't remember what your take was on the "universalism" thread so I'm asking point blank here. By the way it makes no difference to me whether they were insane for 75 years or 7500 ... if you get my drift ... Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Quote: no sane being God promises to make us perfect. This is a big change (for most of us, at least). There are two factors at work here. (1) God lets some of us decide that we don't won't it done. Presumably only people with some degree of mental competence even get given the choice - in the same way that, as an EMT, I don't let a drunk or a currently impaired diabetic decide their treatment. (2) For some, the change is conceivably so great that the result could not be described as being the same person as the original - if you replace anough parts of a car, it is no longer the same car. I think that God fixes all those He can, given those issues. The Bible gives me a strong hint as to how to approximate whether I can be saved - it is a matter of loving God's ways of dealing with people. /Bevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 The problem I have with the whole sin problem and its "solution" is that we don't even have a rational explanation of why we have sin in the first place. Without this, there is no way to defend any solution for a problem we can't even define. What we do know, is that there is pain in this world. We know that we don't like pain for the most part. What we have added on is that its somebody's fault. This is a radical departure from simply saying that life has suffering. If we are going to say its somebody's fault then we better darn well have some explanation of what is exactly their fault. We don't have an explanation of why sin appeared in the first place. If there were no evil desires in place and everyone was happy, what possible motivation could there be to move into sin. If sinful actions created pain, why would Satan, if we are going to name names, possibly want to create sin? Where would his desire for power come from if he lacked nothing? In a world without sin, of what use is a government? Of what use is heirarchy? If we are going to use any kind of justice model for the problem of sin, these questions must be answered. I have never even seen them addressed; it is simply assumed that it was Satan's fault. These same issues come up with Adam and Eve. There is no understanding of or explanation of what possible motivation Adam and Eve would have to sin if they had no desire for power, possessions, or fear. These motivations would only exist if someone had sin. There is also the problem of being placed on a planet condemned and born into sin. Where is the justice in that? This is like injecting every baby with poison and then saying its their fault. So the whole idea of being saved in that context really doesn't add up. I can see being saved from depression, sadness, pain, and suffering, and finding a place now that we can experience the kingdom of God. These don't require any shame or blame. We know that these experiences exist and to be saved from them is certainly demonstrated in many people's lives. I see Jesus moving people's minds away from the idea that life is a series of punishments. I see Him implying that suffering is independent of one's acts or deeds. Did he not state that the rain falls and sun shines on both the righteous and the unrighteous? There is a deeper aspect to what Jesus is saying and this focus on some sort of theological rationale seems to be an illusion created so that our minds can be comfortable with having an "answer." Richard Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted January 24, 2005 Author Share Posted January 24, 2005 Back to the topic... Even though adventist differ on several things, ie the Sabbath, state of the dead etc etc the primary difference, in my opinion, is God's Character. Wen it says his name is to be declared, (and our JW friends view this as his actual name,) what it means is his CHARACTER, in Biblical days when a character changed so did the persons name. Saul--> Paul, and a host of others. The character of God, as put forth buy the adventist church, is way different, then the other Churches I have fellowship with, or grew up in. A couple of short examples. There are songs that talk about we were all created with the sole purpose to Praise Him. ALMOST has if God has an ego problem and constantly needs someone to tell him how great he is. Other images of God are as a severe bully, Love me with all your heart of I am going to hurt you forever... Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 I think you are onto something there Stan, and it dovetails with that EGW quote about reproducing the character of Christ in His people before He comes to claim them as His own. The Greek word "declare" is emphanidzo which means to shine or to manifest. If we are to DECLARE the True Name of God, we are to have His Holy Spirit emphanidzo His character through and in ourselves. Now, how does this relate to the concept of "the Elijah Message"? (Cf. Malachi 4:5-6) Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted January 24, 2005 Author Share Posted January 24, 2005 Not all Jesus' or God (the father) are alike... When we want people to worship God we need to understand that they may refuse to worship a God who is a bully and/or an abuser, I would as well. There is good reasons why some would want nothing to do with Christ, as portray by an image they have been given. Even some adventist I have meet have an image of a strange God. People, adventist, forumer adventist, wannabe adventist would find it well worthwhile to study the Desire of Ages, at least once. It is no wonder Billy Graham has spoken so highly of that book. Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Stan, I also struggle with conflicting images of God and Jesus, not all of them nice, and some of them strange. Some of this is because of experiences I did not ask for and other parts of it are my own fault for going places and doing things I had no business doing because I knew better but I was angry and in rebellion against God. So right now part of my own spiritual "quest" involves wanting to "know Thee, the only True God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent." (John 17:3). The Bible states this is eternal life, so in a sense my quest is for eternal life, but really it's for the intimate fellowship with my real Maker and Master, Saviour and Friend. Studying Desire of Ages sounds like an excellent route to take here. It has helped me much in the past and doubtless can help me again. Stan why don't you invite the members here to join our study of it on ClubAdventist which is now in progress? We have just begun Chapter 2, but they may still participate in discussion on Chapter 1 as well. We are trying to take 2 chapters per week but we won't rush through if more time is needed. And each chapter is always open for discussion at any time they wish to join in. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 21, 2006 Moderators Share Posted January 21, 2006 There is no "rational explanation," or "reason," for sin. Jim Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted January 21, 2006 Moderators Share Posted January 21, 2006 The exiting thing about this whole issue is simply that God will have people that reflect Truth (Truth is also a person) not just dotrinally (its 28 now by the way) but in terms of their lifestyle in the closing years of earth's (sin filled)history. SDA's can get hung up on the 28 but I think the remnant will come from all faiths and will have essential elements of Adventism...Sabbath...state of the dead etc but they also have an experience that perhaps is now abscent is the SDA movement. I'm thinking of visions and dreams, healing, prophesy (I don't believe that the Spirit of Phrophesy is just limited to EGW). One of the biggest elements I also see is involvement in meeting the needs of the sick, poor, etc. that seems to be less and less of what we now do as SDA's, in general. Am I going to far in suggesting a concern for social justice among the remant too! Like the jews, I think our remnant "badge" has landed us with the same mentality that the jews had and remember what happened to them. But wait....its OK.... God could never pick another movement to fulfill his plan could He? Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 Quote: God could never pick another movement to fulfill his plan could He? The Advent movement is not perfect because it is made up of sinners. One can nit-pick any organization and find flaws with the way they go about accomplishing their mission. However the mission of the Adventist church is in the spirit of the remnant. The Adventist church goes into prisons with the gospel. They provide disaster relief to the afflicted. They have elevated the calling to be a doctor to be on equal ground as the calling of a pastor and a nurse of an elder. The Adventist movement focuses on the religious education of its youth with a world-wide school system. Perhaps the weakest link in the Adventist movement is its lack of direct support for marriages and families. I am glad to see 3ABN has more programs with such a focus. The church should have more family & marriage counselors availble to their members (even if only be web counseling). These counselors should be given the pulpet often. Churches should have annual marriage retreat/seminars. There are too many divorces in the church and many that stay together are amidst great dysfunction. I think there is a reason that two Commandments (5th & 7th) deal with the health of the family. One could make the arguement that the 4th, 9th and 10th also have practical family implications. The family is so important to God that there are provisions in His law to protect it. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clio Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 Quote: lazarus said: The exiting thing about this whole issue is simply that God will have people that reflect Truth (Truth is also a person) not just dotrinally (its 28 now by the way) but in terms of their lifestyle in the closing years of earth's (sin filled)history. SDA's can get hung up on the 28 but I think the remnant will come from all faiths and will have essential elements of Adventism...Sabbath...state of the dead etc but they also have an experience that perhaps is now abscent is the SDA movement. I'm thinking of visions and dreams, healing, prophesy (I don't believe that the Spirit of Phrophesy is just limited to EGW). One of the biggest elements I also see is involvement in meeting the needs of the sick, poor, etc. that seems to be less and less of what we now do as SDA's, in general. Am I going to far in suggesting a concern for social justice among the remant too! Like the jews, I think our remnant "badge" has landed us with the same mentality that the jews had and remember what happened to them. But wait....its OK.... God could never pick another movement to fulfill his plan could He? You are quite correct lazarus. The ones who are truly searching the skies, following in the path Abba has laid out, watchmen on the walls are rarely SDA. At least the ones brought into my life. And they are SHOCKED that there is a whole denomination that knows what is going to happen and are so blind they can't see it unfolding before them. They take homeless people into their homes, they feed and clothe the needy out of their own pockets, they establish home and cell churches, they purchase land as a refuge, and plan for those who will be brought to them. They study constantly, dream dreams, see visions, and check each carefully against the Bible. They weep and agonize in prayer over some of the messages they are given to deliver, and they bless the lives of others. Occasionally I find an SDA among them, so far I've met 4, and two of them feel as though they are outside the "in crowd" of the denomination looking in. Clio Quote A heart where He alone has first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 I think more Adventists need to have 3ABN, Hope TV or Adventist World Radio in their home so they know and, in a small part, experience all the great things the church is doing. The church has a great mission for all of humanity. The church, as a whole, is moving in the right direction. This evening on 3ABN Today a lady was talking about a ministry ("My Very Own Bags of Love" ) she started helping foster children. She is just one of thousands of Adventists doing the Lord's work who will hear those words, "Well done good and faithful servant" upon His return. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted February 14, 2006 Moderators Share Posted February 14, 2006 I have a question about what the everlasting good news is that God wants people to spread around the globe before Jesus returns. For instance, how pure does that good news need to be in order qualify as "good news"? What if the "good news" is mostly false, bad news? Specifically, does the Roman Catholic gospel-- that includes an eternally burning hell, purgatory, limbo, prayers to the dead, Mary, a false priesthood, the papacy, etc.-- qualify as the good news that the New Testament says will be preached around the world before "the end" comes? How about the gospel preached by Baptists, etc., or by the evangelicals? Does their "gospel" about a God who tortures people throughout eternity and a salvation that leaves people in their sins qualify as the "everlasting gospel" that is carried in midheaven by the three angels of Revelation 14? Is that what the Bible is referring to by "this gospel of the kingdom"? I'm sure that God wants people to make up their minds about Him before Jesus returns based on a clear proclamation of the truth. So the question is, What really is the true gospel? Are all the various denominations involved equally in spreading it? Is the gospel that SDAs are teaching in any way distinctive or necessary? Jim Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted February 14, 2006 Moderators Share Posted February 14, 2006 Quote: aldona said: With all due respect to you both, gentlemen, I do not believe that "the remnant" and "the SDA church" are the same. I believe that part of the SDA church may constitute part of the remnant, which will also contain many people from other faiths. My understanding has always been that one group or denomination claiming that they ALONE are "THE REMNANT" is the hallmark of a cult. Is there anyone else who thinks this way too, or am I a lone heretic here? aldona [:"blue"]I believe that the visible remnant church/organization is the one I belong to, otherwise I wouldn't be in it. However, there is an invisible remnant comprised of all the saved believers from all the different denominations or even people of no denominations but who otherwise believe in & love God. [/] Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clio Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 Quote: aldona said: With all due respect to you both, gentlemen, I do not believe that "the remnant" and "the SDA church" are the same. I believe that part of the SDA church may constitute part of the remnant, which will also contain many people from other faiths. My understanding has always been that one group or denomination claiming that they ALONE are "THE REMNANT" is the hallmark of a cult. Is there anyone else who thinks this way too, or am I a lone heretic here? aldona I totally agree with you aldona. Any organization that claims that their members ALONE are "THE REMNANT" is on seriously dangerous ground. While I see that EGW counseled over and over to "Press together! Press together! There is strength in unity, and protection from the wiles of Satan", nowhere do I see in her writings clear statements saying that the SDA church is THE remnant church. Contrariwise, she specifically states that there are those in other denominations that at the very end will be moved to keep all the truth as they have so lived in the light of the truth they had. It does not say they will join the SDA church, just that they will keep all truth. In all her counsels, it is clear that "church" can mean both the SDA church and the greater body of Christ Jesus. It is important to take each reference in the context in which it was written. So many of her counsels were in response to specific situations, and portions are taken out and organized in such a way that it is no longer possible to determine her entire intent. It is sad that all members do not have access to full transcripts of letters, manuscripts, etc. which would shed more light on circumstances, background and influencing factors. To state that the remnant will keep Sabbath is accurate. To state that salvation is by grace, through faith is accurate. To say that the only saved still living when King Jesus is in the skies over our planet will also be members of the Seventh Day Adventist church is not only inaccurate, it is arrogant and false. The "remnant" comprises all those who have the faith of Jesus and keep His commandments. Members of the Seventh-day Adventist church who also meet that criteria compose a part of the remnant. Members of the Seventh-day Adventist church who do not meet that criteria are not a part of the remnant. Quote A heart where He alone has first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 Just to throw something in...did not EGW counsel against the orignial drive to form the SDA denomination? Does that not make the SDA denomination something more of a human achievement than a real calling by God? While the institution that is the SDA church denomination was indeed allowed of by God for a work to aid finishing the Gospel Commission...I do not see where we can say this denomination will be allowed by the world to remain organized when the final events begin to roll. Financial assets, capital investments will be seized and frozen. Our hospital system? seized and added to another, world-loyal institution's system. Our schools and academies? same thing. Our church buildings? Locked up and seized "for the public good". To exist as a denomination would mean to either be forced completely underground, or to betray the faith. Perhaps that's why EGW said so many of our brightest stars will go out.... I'm of the understanding that God will use the SDA denomination as He can for the present, but the day is coming when the human institution of a formal denomination will become a trap and a snare. The Gospel work will finish the same way it started: as an underground movement that turned the world up-side down and inside-out! Will it be disorganized? The apostolic church was as organized or disorganized as one wants to read in the Scriptures. But God led and gave the message the fuel and drive to spread....not a program or an institution. And that's the way I think it will finish up. Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archierieus Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 Well, Ted, my friend, sounds like some of that Southern Baptist theology there in Dallas may just be rubbin off on you. Better move back to the IT, where it's safe. I understand both the Bible and the Testimonies to teach very clearly, that God works in an organized way, and that He organises His work on this Earth. I had also understood that Sister White was quite emphatic in support of church organization, the Conference setup, and so forth. Years ago, I was in Idaho for a few days, and stopped by Pacific Press. Someone there allowed me access to unpublished writings of EGW. There I read her statement that God will not allow the SDA church to apostatize so far, as to require raising up a new denomination. Secondly, that when the great test of our faith comes, some church leaders will fall away, but that God will raise up others to fill their places in the Conference structure. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 Dave, Southern Baptist Theology??? Pokin' at me agin? Next, you'll be tellin' stories 'bout some connection between me and some no-name seminary in Dallas.... Actually, to get back to serious here: I was a "Christian" by infant baptism only prior to joining the SDA. Name only - was raised hardly ever hearing about Christ or going to church. No prayer in the home. No nothing. I basically came in out of the world - and that world left a few scars on me that still hurt to this day. It's from that experience I spoke of - the world can make things very difficult for God's servants. It can shut down an formal denomination structure quite easily. I didn't suggest that a) prior to the formal denomination formation, the advent message was disorganized (it wasn't); that EGW's perceived (my part) opposition was a stand of opposition to church organization (from my perspective, it wasn't), nor c) if the formal denomination is struck down, that God's work would no longer be organized. The formal denomination is but one way the work could be organized. Let us remember that the apostles spread the Gospel to the then known world w/o the need to declare a formal denomination - indeed, it was declared an outlaw religion, so it had no place in society to establish such a formal structure. Let us remember that these structures are constructions of man. God doesn't need them to organize his work. They are man's structures, and the SDA church is our structure, because we feel we can best organize ourselves through such an organ. It is my perception that EGW and those pushing for establishing a formal denomination disagreed on how the established work's organization was going to change, not on whether it should be organized or not. It's my opinion that EGW was advocating a structure much more like that of the early apostolic church, whereas some of the other leaders of the day wanted something much more like what is in the world today. What we got was a compromise - a mixture of both. IMHO, of course. That's my story...and I'm stickin' with it! Ted Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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