Moderators lazarus Posted May 28, 2009 Moderators Share Posted May 28, 2009 It was not only Nazis that took part in the Holocaust but it was their level and scale of involvement that leads to the condemnation of the Nazi regime. Same applies to white people in America. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Quote: It was not only Nazis that took part in the Holocaust but it was their level and scale of involvement that leads to the condemnation of the Nazi regime. Same applies to white people in America. The level of our involvement would probably not been possible without the level of involvement from Africans that sold their countrymen for profit. Before they even hit our shores they were betrayed by their own people,time and time again It doesn't really matter to me if a free black man had 30 slaves and a white had 75 slaves. Both are committing the same act. Same applies to the picture that gets painted about the peace and harmony of the US before the white man came. Native americans strolling hand in hand thru the prairie to visit neighboring tribes is not reality. They killed one another and took captive people from other tribes. The stronger took land from the weaker. We did what they had and were doing to one another. Does not make the white man any worse,any better than the black man or the Native American Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted May 28, 2009 Moderators Share Posted May 28, 2009 An alternative view to the other article posted. Free blacks were fairly common in the antebellum South, constituting 8 percent of Southern blacks in 1840. Most had gained their freedom through manumission (especially common just after the Revolutionary War) or been born free to a free mother. Slaves who'd been permitted to earn money in their spare time sometimes made enough to buy their freedom. Another route was being bought and freed by free relatives or friends. But some who bought slaves in this way didn't formally free them for years, partly because freedmen paid higher taxes than slaves or whites. Courts since colonial times had recognized the right of free blacks to own slaves. This gave rise to an odd arrangement in which people lived as free but were legally someone else's property. This was benevolent slavery. Between 1800 and 1830 slave states began restricting manumission, seeing free blacks as potential fomenters of slave rebellion. Now you could buy your friends, but you couldn't free them unless they left the state -- which for the freed slave could mean leaving behind family still in bondage. So more free blacks took to owning slaves benevolently. Being a nominal slave was risky -- among other things, you could be seized as payment for your nominal owner's debts. But at least one state, South Carolina, granted nominal slaves certain rights, including the right to buy slaves of their own. Nobody's sure how many such arrangements existed. A widely cited but imperfect source is the 1830 federal census, chosen because it supposedly represents the high point of black slave ownership. One count, taking the data at face value, found 3,777 free black heads of household who had slaves living with them. If that's accurate, about 2 percent of Southern free blacks owned slaves. But this number could be off in either direction. It didn't distinguish between slaves the householder owned, live-in slaves he hired, and slaves who merely lodged with him. In a few cases the census listed known white slaveholders as black. Black overseers were sometimes counted as slave owners instead of absentee white planters. On the other hand, nominal slaves were often recorded as free. In most cases, historians think, blacks owned slaves benevolently, but exploitative slaveholding by blacks did happen. Some well-off urban blacks owned house slaves, and occasionally craftsmen owned skilled slaves to work under or alongside them. Determining how often this happened isn't easy, since the census didn't consistently distinguish between nominal and actual slaves. Proof of commercial ownership can be found in advertising for runaway slaves, sales of slaves at market rates, etc. A confounding factor is that some free blacks owned slaves both benevolently and commercially. One scholar claims the majority of slave transactions by blacks in Charleston, S.C., were commercial -- but again, South Carolina was unusual, for reasons I'll return to. An analysis of Petersburg, Va., suggests only about 10 percent of black slaveholders owned slaves commercially, which was probably typical. Sure, slavery is slavery, but what we're talking about is a far cry from the plantation field slavery you might have imagined. We do, however, need to acknowledge a less common form of black slaveholding. Whites in Louisiana and South Carolina fostered a class of rich people of mixed race -- typically they were known as "mulattoes," although gradations such as "quadroon" and "octoroon" were sometimes used -- as a buffer between themselves and slaves. Often the descendants and heirs of well-off whites, these citizens were encouraged to own slaves, tended to side with whites in racial disputes, and generally identified more with their white forbears than black. Nationwide maybe 10 percent of the mixed-race population (about 1 percent of all those identified as African-American) fell into this category. Some of these people owned lots of slaves. How common was this? Let's define "lots" as 10 or more in a household, bearing in mind that sometimes those with many slaves were still benevolent owners. (One man benevolently owned 18 relatives on the eve of Emancipation.) In 1830, 80 percent of blacks who owned 10 or more slaves lived in Louisiana or South Carolina. I won't say it wasn't weird, but there were only 214 such owners nationwide out of 320,000 free blacks. © 2008 Creative Loafing Media, Inc. All rights reserved. http://charlotte.creativeloafing.com/gyr...tent?oid=390718 Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted May 28, 2009 Moderators Share Posted May 28, 2009 If you don't want to accept the nature, scale and scope of the Transatlantic slave trade, that's OK. If you don't want to accept the nature, scale and scope of what happened to Native Americans that's fine too. There are people who deny the Holocaust. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 The truth is probably somewhere in between. It does not explain how any people white,black or anyone else can "OWN" their own countrymen. Does not explain the Africans that rounded up their countrymen like cattle and sold them for profit or revenge. Does not explain the anger at whites for taking "Indian Lands" while that had been done for centuries by native americans to native americans. It cannot excuse what the white man did,but neither can it excuse what they were willing to do to one another and then complain bitterly when someone stronger than they came along Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted May 28, 2009 Moderators Share Posted May 28, 2009 let me try to explain: The Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade was the most abominable and cruel from of slavery, but it was neither the first nor the only slave trade. Slavery was a recognized institution around the world long before the Egyptians enslaved the Jews. Arabs raided European countries and captured white slaves which they sold in Africa. By the 18th century, a large part of the European population were descendants of serfs and slaves. In other words, slavery was not just about the black people who endured the Middle Passage. It was a part of human history. Worldwide, domestic slavery was the most common form of enslavement. Rich men had slaves in their households, and, in some societies, the number of slaves determined his social status. In West Africa, severe forms of slavery existed. The slaves were usually men and women captured in war whose labor led to surplus production and whose numbers amplified the armies of imperial expansion. In most parts, slaves born within the master's household were better treated than war captives or trade slaves--often as members of the family. Slaves could occasionally rise to positions of importance or buy their own freedom. Nonetheless, a master had ultimate power over his slave. If a master chose to kill a slave, he could do so without question. The disgrace which cloaks the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade is the inhumanity of treatment the slaves received. The ultimate degradation and dehumanization of slaves singularly characteristic of the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade was the reduction of human beings to mere commodities and labor units. The minimum amount of food, clothing, and shelter was given to those slaves who survived the Middle Passage, and the maximum amount of work was expected of them. The Holocaust in Europe was not the only mass killing in WW2 What makes the holocaust distinct is the scale and systematic nature of it. African and African-American scholars see the the Transatlantic slave trade as part of the African holocaust for the same reason. A good book is "how Europe Underdeveloped Africa" Walter Rodney Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Quote: The Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade was the most abominable and cruel from of slavery, but it was neither the first nor the only slave trade. Slavery was a recognized institution around the world long before the Egyptians enslaved the Jews. Arabs raided European countries and captured white slaves which they sold in Africa. By the 18th century, a large part of the European population were descendants of serfs and slaves. In other words, slavery was not just about the black people who endured the Middle Passage. It was a part of human history. I understand this. Don't doubt a word of it. We seem to be talking past one another. I want to know how it is more acceptable for free black men to own slaves,regardless of the number. Am I worse if I owned 100 slaves and the neighbor,a free black man owns thirty? Our intent and the evil done to another is the same. Slavery has always been with us,but that is not the understanding when African-Americans single out the white man for all their ills and failures. Worldwide, domestic slavery was the most common form of enslavement. Rich men had slaves in their households, and, in some societies, the number of slaves determined his social status. In West Africa, severe forms of slavery existed. The slaves were usually men and women captured in war whose labor led to surplus production and whose numbers amplified the armies of imperial expansion. In most parts, slaves born within the master's household were better treated than war captives or trade slaves--often as members of the family. Slaves could occasionally rise to positions of importance or buy their own freedom. Nonetheless, a master had ultimate power over his slave. If a master chose to kill a slave, he could do so without question. The disgrace which cloaks the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade is the inhumanity of treatment the slaves received. The ultimate degradation and dehumanization of slaves singularly characteristic of the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade was the reduction of human beings to mere commodities and labor units. The minimum amount of food, clothing, and shelter was given to those slaves who survived the Middle Passage, and the maximum amount of work was expected of them. The Holocaust in Europe was not the only mass killing in WW2 What makes the holocaust distinct is the scale and systematic nature of it. African and African-American scholars see the the Transatlantic slave trade as part of the African holocaust for the same reason. A good book is "how Europe Underdeveloped Africa" Walter Rodney Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted May 28, 2009 Moderators Share Posted May 28, 2009 More often than not, and contrary to a century and a half of bullwhips-on-tortured-backs propaganda, black and white masters worked and ate alongside their charges; be it in house, field or workshop. This is bogus, revisionist trash. Read some slave narratives: http://xroads.virginia.edu/~hyper/wpa/index.html http://lcweb2.loc.gov/ammem/snhtml/snvoices00.html Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted May 28, 2009 Moderators Share Posted May 28, 2009 We seem to be talking past one another. I want to know how it is more acceptable for free black men to own slaves,regardless of the number. Oh no, not again. Who said that? Quote: Slavery has always been with us,but that is not the understanding when African-Americans single out the white man for all their ills and failures. *sigh* Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Quote: Oh no, not again. Who said that? It doesn't have to be said. Nor does it just involve African americans. You can see it on this board. You as in general, not you specifically. If I dislike someone that is black I am racist,If a black person dislikes me we have to understand we have it coming. Quite frankly there are those I dislike that are black. My dislike does come from their race, But it is how they use their race against others,or to excuse what would not be in someone white. When it comes to race I see nothing but "whites" have caused all the racism and problems of the other race they may be dealing with. Quote: Slavery has always been with us,but that is not the understanding when African-Americans single out the white man for all their ills and failures. *sigh* Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kountzer Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 I've participated in discussions like this here before. After the dust settled I didn't feel that the kingdom of God was advanced any or that I received any substantive insight from the discussion. I try to avoid racial and political discussions, but those types of types of discussion come up often here and I sometimes participate. What you were saying about anger at whites for taking indian lands, and the stuff about black slave owners, I don't know. I think those are emotional left overs from discussions you have had in other places. I don't think there are more than 2 african americans that frequent this board on a regular basis, and I don't often raise those types of issues, if ever. There are all sorts of racially and politically charged forums and msg boards where I could sit around and debate these types of issues ad nauseum. The thing that makes this forum unique is the adventist aspect of it. One of the things that keeps me attached to the adventist movement is the concept, framework, if you will, of the great controversy between Christ and Satan. All the rest of the junk: racism, classism, drugs, aids, famines, war, etc., are easily, to me, defined and addressed within the idea of a spiritual battle between good and evil. I am thankful for an all knowing God who doesn't love or hate any race or class more than others. thank good ness this junk won't be in Heaven. DB Quote I prayed for twenty years but received no answer until I prayed with my legs. Frederick Douglass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted May 28, 2009 Moderators Share Posted May 28, 2009 If you want to start another thread on these issues you can. I don't think this was the direction the originator of the thread planned. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Quote: I've participated in discussions like this here before. After the dust settled I didn't feel that the kingdom of God was advanced any or that I received any substantive insight from the discussion. I try to avoid racial and political discussions, but those types of types of discussion come up often here and I sometimes participate. What you were saying about anger at whites for taking indian lands, and the stuff about black slave owners, I don't know. I think those are emotional left overs from discussions you have had in other places. You are wrong in what you think as to why I have said what I did. I don't care if it is white on black,black on white,indian on white,white on indian The racism between Indian and white has always been alive and well in many parts of MN,especially my hometown area. In some regions of the state whites would not want to be caught driving thru reservation land. Same would probably be true for them in white neighborhoods. We never saw that as they did not seem to venture in those neighborhoods. However it still is alive in some of the indian towns. Have you ever seen a african -american address their racism towards whites.I haven't. Whites will condemn other whites,black will discuss white racism, but I have never seen blacks discuss black racism European settlers and on down to current day have their own wrongs to cope with without having to take responsibility for the wrongs of others. Quote: I don't think there are more than 2 african americans that frequent this board on a regular basis, and I don't often raise those types of issues, if ever. There are all sorts of racially and politically charged forums and msg boards where I could sit around and debate these types of issues ad nauseum. The thing that makes this forum unique is the adventist aspect of it. The adventist aspect does not make racism disappear. Quote: One of the things that keeps me attached to the adventist movement is the concept, framework, if you will, of the great controversy between Christ and Satan. All the rest of the junk: racism, classism, drugs, aids, famines, war, etc., are easily, to me, defined and addressed within the idea of a spiritual battle between good and evil. I am thankful for an all knowing God who doesn't love or hate any race or class more than others. thank good ness this junk won't be in Heaven. DB I think most of us realize the "junk" you refer to comes from the battle between good and evil. Perhaps we should all just sit down and be without opinion or discussion on any issue. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted May 28, 2009 Members Share Posted May 28, 2009 Thanks for the posts bonnie, I would never have thought that, but I guess from what I read in your posts in makes sense. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Quote: Thanks for the posts bonnie, I would never have thought that, but I guess from what I read in your posts in makes sense. pk Racism stinks for whatever reason. There should be a memorial to all that have served and lost their lives. Regardless of race or nationality. Not sure that day will come but would be great if it did. The confederates fought for what they believed in as well as the union. It had to be a hideous time for all. African -Americans are no better or worse than the white race. Both are quite able of being racist. White men/women do not have the patent on racism. The worst I have ever witnessed is a girl friend of mine married a black man. The black family made her life miserable and it ended in divorce. It was also the first time I ever gave much thought to the racism of the african american Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kountzer Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 You are wrong in what you think as to why I have said what I did. I don't care if it is white on black,black on white,indian on white,white on indian. The racism between Indian and white has always been alive and well in many parts of MN,especially my hometown area. In some regions of the state whites would not want to be caught driving thru reservation land. Same would probably be true for them in white neighborhoods. We never saw that as they did not seem to venture in those neighborhoods. However it still is alive in some of the indian towns. Quote I prayed for twenty years but received no answer until I prayed with my legs. Frederick Douglass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Quote: Quote: More often than not, and contrary to a century and a half of bullwhips-on-tortured-backs propaganda, black and white masters worked and ate alongside their charges; be it in house, field or workshop. This is bogus, revisionist trash. Actually, they seem to say the same thing. Quote: Some narratives contain startling descriptions of cruelty while others convey an almost nostalgic view of plantation life. I read several of the narratives. Fascinating. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 The truth is probably somewhere in between. It does not explain how any people white,black or anyone else can "OWN" their own countrymen.Does not explain the Africans that rounded up their countrymen like cattle and sold them for profit or revenge. I don't think the Africans were rounding up their own countrymen. Africa is a large continent and many of the boundaries were set by colonial powers. Just because they lived on the same continent did not mean they considered other tribes their "countrymen." Far from it. Tribal loyalty was extremely strong, and still is in many parts of Africa and the Middle East. There was not much loyalty to people outside the tribe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Quote: I don't think the Africans were rounding up their own countrymen. Africa is a large continent and many of the boundaries were set by colonial powers. Just because they lived on the same continent did not mean they considered other tribes their "countrymen." Far from it. Tribal loyalty was extremely strong, and still is in many parts of Africa and the Middle East. There was not much loyalty to people outside the tribe. The US is large,many state boundries. If someone from California captures and sells a human being from MN to a person from another country,it would be his countrymen that did the selling. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Originally Posted By: bonnie The truth is probably somewhere in between. It does not explain how any people white,black or anyone else can "OWN" their own countrymen.Does not explain the Africans that rounded up their countrymen like cattle and sold them for profit or revenge. I don't think the Africans were rounding up their own countrymen. Africa is a large continent and many of the boundaries were set by colonial powers. Just because they lived on the same continent did not mean they considered other tribes their "countrymen." Far from it. Tribal loyalty was extremely strong, and still is in many parts of Africa and the Middle East. There was not much loyalty to people outside the tribe. Africans sold africans,there simply is no getting around it. I am not talking about loyalty. Obviously slavery was not a problem for africans until "white men" joined in their endeavors Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted May 29, 2009 Moderators Share Posted May 29, 2009 The US is large,many state boundries. If someone from California captures and sells a human being from MN to a person from another country,it would be his countrymen that did the selling. Africa is a continent. The USA is a country. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted May 29, 2009 Members Share Posted May 29, 2009 Good point lazarus. I was thinking that also. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 Originally Posted By: bonnie The US is large,many state boundries. If someone from California captures and sells a human being from MN to a person from another country,it would be his countrymen that did the selling. Africa is a continent. The USA is a country. Really doesn't matter. Africans,those of the african continent obviously felt that it was okay to sell other africans for slavery. The location is really a poor defense of africans that dealt in the slave trade. It is a poor defense to gloss over because of numbers for free blacks to own black slaves. Slavery was/is ugly. Those that take part in it are guilty of same offense. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 You are putting all Africans in the same boat. That's like saying Mexicans and Canadians are "countrymen" because they live on the same continent. Like I tried to explain earlier, there are many tribes in Africa, as well as many countries. There are vast differences among them, and they hardly think of one another as countrymen. I'm guessing there have always been people on every continent who try to benefit from slavery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted May 29, 2009 Moderators Share Posted May 29, 2009 I'm really not sure of the point your are trying to argue. Here's is the simple point i am making about the transatlantic slave trade. It was notable because of its scale, scope and treatment of the slaves. The scale= the numbers involved (10m +) The scope= transatlantic. Treatment= The rules covering African slaves were more like the Biblical rules. The Transatlantic trade in many ways dehumanized the slaves. If you can post historical data that refutes these points please do. The African slave trade was not on the same scale or scope. It was altogether different. There has always been slavery but the Transatlantic slave trade was notable in many ways. I draw the analogy with the holocaust. The scale= 6 Million Jews The Scope= concentration camps in 5 + countries and at least 5 death camps in Poland. Treatment = we all know the facts. There have been other massacres but the Jewish holocaust is distinctive in many ways. Nobody minimizes the horror of the Nazi regime because some Jews became police for the Nazi's, or translated for them or collaborated with them. Its seems you are trying to re-write American history with the notion that a few African Americans had slaves. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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