there buster Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Quote: And it's no basis for this bizarre and insane claim that 'Arabs don't love their children'. straw man Golda Meir did not say "the Arabs don't love their children." She said there would not be peace until they loved their children more than they hated the Jews. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted June 13, 2009 Administrators Share Posted June 13, 2009 thinly split hair... Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Quote: And it's no basis for this bizarre and insane claim that 'Arabs don't love their children'. Quote: straw man Golda Meir did not say "the Arabs don't love their children." She said there would not be peace until they loved their children more than they hated the Jews. Hardly bizarre and insane if you are talking about this mother. Sending her three sons on suicide attacks indicates pretty strongly who and what she loved more than her own sons. She obviously has more hate for the Israeli's than love for her children. Umm Nidal, who sent three of her sons, including one 17 year old, on suicide attacks, said "I love my children, but as Muslims we pressure ourselves and sacrifice our emotions for the interest of the homeland. The greater interest takes precedence to the personal interest." She was later elected to the Palestinian legislature on the Hamas ticket.[10] According to Human Rights Watch, Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 I have a very difficult time trying to find the "kind,gentile,non-aggressive" muslim. Maybe you haven't looked very hard. There are thousands and thousands of them right here in the U.S., causing no trouble whatsoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Originally Posted By: bonnie I have a very difficult time trying to find the "kind,gentile,non-aggressive" muslim. Maybe you haven't looked very hard. There are thousands and thousands of them right here in the U.S., causing no trouble whatsoever. That is very possible. Do I go looking for them? NO I do cross paths with them at times and still am looking for the peace loving gentle muslims. I am sure they are out there but the ones that aren't stand out. I took a young friend to take her drivers test. It was packed with Muslims. No crime in that if they got there first. However most failed the test and went on to berate the instructors and the clerks. Demanding they give the license anyway. One nearby town has had town meetings interrupted on more than one occasion. The muslims don't seem to care that we have laws and restrictions. They yell discrimination as quickly as something is denied. Protesting that the meetings are timed to interfere with their evening prayers. The fabric store gets ready for battle when several come in at once. Demanding to dicker and get a reduced price,often driving away paying,non complaining customers. It would be nice and refreshing to see what others describe.We have large communities of Muslims and the rep is not great. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 That's interesting. I've never seen or heard of anything like that around here. I work with Muslims, and they are extremely polite, putting most everyone else to shame. They do have a patriarchal, machismo culture, similar to the hispanics, which I would have a hard time with, being raised much differently. But they don't cause any trouble that I know of. Many of them come from real dog-eat-dog cultures, and I'm sure it is hard for them to adjust to our culture. And some cultures are just more loud and pushy than others, depending on what country they are from. I'm guessing those who were born here or have lived here for 20+ years probably don't act like you described. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 That's interesting. I've never seen or heard of anything like that around here. I work with Muslims, and they are extremely polite, putting most everyone else to shame. They do have a patriarchal, machismo culture, similar to the hispanics, which I would have a hard time with, being raised much differently. But they don't cause any trouble that I know of. Many of them come from real dog-eat-dog cultures, and I'm sure it is hard for them to adjust to our culture. And some cultures are just more loud and pushy than others, depending on what country they are from. I'm guessing those who were born here or have lived here for 20+ years probably don't act like you described. That may very well be,I know I back out of the fabric store when I see several. We live in a small town of under 10,000. Not sure why but the last couple of years we have had a large influx of african-americans and hispanics and asian As a whole their homes are neat and well kept. Children seem very well behaved. I see the school kids,high school age walking and interating in a group,3,4 races involved. As neighbors they could not be nicer .They are the ones that do not take kindly to the very few of their race that comes to our town and live in poorly kept homes with children running amuck. From what I have seen I would not be real anxious to have the same number of muslims as the other races. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Quote: Golda Meir did not say "the Arabs don't love their children." She said there would not be peace until they loved their children more than they hated the Jews. Quote: thinly split hair... God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. . . On your logic, then, God didn't love his son at all. . . Saying that He did love his Son, but there was something more important, must be a "thinly split hair. . ." Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsailor29 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Quote: Golda Meir did not say "the Arabs don't love their children." She said there would not be peace until they loved their children more than they hated the Jews. Quote: thinly split hair... God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. . . On your logic, then, God didn't love his son at all. . . Saying that He did love his Son, but there was something more important, must be a "thinly split hair. . ." Whoa Nellie. Comparisons of what God does to what humans do is not appropriate. Actually it is very much a non sequitur. The progression of Biblical theology led God's people away from child sacrifice. Evidently a lot of people believed in child sacrifice 2,000 years ago, so that was the story of Jesus, instead of what really happened. It was the one infinite God who came from the womb of Mary, from the most holy place of her body temple. He came, gave us His testimonies, and died for our sins. Being the one infinite God, He could not stay dead, but He paid the price of redemption non the less, and He demonstrated where lack of faith in Him would lead. Quote Prs God, frm whm blssngs flw http://www.zoelifestyle.com/jmccall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Quote: Comparisons of what God does to what humans do is not appropriate. Actually it is very much a non sequitur. The Bible does it all the time. "As a father pities his children, so the Lord. . ." Even in calling Jesus his "son," God compares what he does to what we do. It is your theological rambling which is the non sequitur, and off topic. Logic is logic, my friend. When a person uses a logical formation, it's validity can be demonstrated or falsified by using the same logic in analogous cases. The assertion was made that there was almost no difference between "not loving one's children" and "loving one's children but having another competing value." I demonstrated it's falsity by counter example. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsailor29 Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 The Bible does it all the time. "As a father pities his children, so the Lord. . ." Even in calling Jesus his "son," God compares what he does to what we do. It is your theological rambling which is the non sequitur, and off topic. Logic is logic, my friend. When a person uses a logical formation, it's validity can be demonstrated or falsified by using the same logic in analogous cases. The assertion was made that there was almost no difference between "not loving one's children" and "loving one's children but having another competing value." I demonstrated it's falsity by counter example. The sacrifice of a child wearing a bomb vest is no where near any analogy to Jesus on the cross. The cross was an act of love. A suicide bombing is an act of hate. To sacrifice a child in order to save one's enemies would be analogous to Jesus on the cross. The quote in question is correct. Hate is the enemy. And if "Allah" really is just another name for "YHWH," then they should pray to Him, to take their hate away. I have deleted a lot of information from this post, having to do with Islam. But I will say this. If the Koran is a valid parallel to the Torah, then its origin is more likely with the Northern tribes of Israel, than with Ishmael. Quote Prs God, frm whm blssngs flw http://www.zoelifestyle.com/jmccall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Quote: The sacrifice of a child wearing a bomb vest is no where near any analogy to Jesus on the cross. The cross was an act of love. A suicide bombing is an act of hate. To sacrifice a child in order to save one's enemies would be analogous to Jesus on the cross. This is obvious, and beside the point. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Quote: And it's no basis for this bizarre and insane claim that 'Arabs don't love their children'. straw man Golda Meir did not say "the Arabs don't love their children." She said there would not be peace until they loved their children more than they hated the Jews. Spot-on observation! Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Carolaa, Quote: Many of them come from real dog-eat-dog cultures, and I'm sure it is hard for them to adjust to our culture. And some cultures are just more loud and pushy than others, depending on what country they are from. I'm guessing those who were born here or have lived here for 20+ years probably don't act like you described. Those are your perceptions, Carolaa. However, number of years spent in American culture doesn't determine how they will act in American society. That appears to be one to be one of the many myths some in America have concerning foreign cultures. I know for a fact there are many cultures across the world that don't care one whit about how American culture feels about them. I also know for fact most people in a foreign country will hold onto their own culture - because that is their identity. There are two people groups with very strong ties to their cultures that have significant presences in America: Hispanics and Muslims. And yes, both of those groups have their polite examples...and both have their bad apples who take their culture to the point of racism - thinking all other are inferior while crying discrimination at every little denial of desire. On the whole, though, most Hispanics are just like most Americans - they group together with who they're comfortable with and pretty much want to be left alone to pursue their lives. While they are very strong on their culture, they don't have a history of moving into other lands, destroying that people's religion and culture, and replacing it with their own. Not so with the Muslim. Personally, I have met Muslims (Arab and non-Arab) from all across the spectrum. Most are polite, some are not so. And some are just down-right ugly. While on the surface they have appeared to be like many other people groups in society, they have something which sooner or later becomes known when they achieve a core population size: Sharia Law. It is written into their religion that they will play by other's rules, and peaceably, so long as the Muslim lacks the power of control. Once that grasp of power is achieved, they are obliged to change the rules of culture to that of Sharia Law. It matters not where that is. That is why Britain, Holland, Denmark, and France are having such a struggle with the Muslim currently. Those countries thought as you did - immigrants coming in only looking to better their lives. Now, the Muslim is striving to place those European cultures under Sharia Law - neighborhood by neighborhood, until they have enough presence to claim the majority rule. In short, they play the West's own nobility game against itself. Just because those in your neighborhood haven't started doing this, Carolaa, doesn't mean they won't try one day. It has already started in the northern part of American - where I do believe Muslim groups in both Minnesota and Michigan have already begun the process of pushing for governance under Sharia Law. And yes, they will play the discrimination and rights games to further that, so that opposition is put in terms of racism and tyranny. That is what is being done in Europe even as we speak. Carolaa, would you like to live under Sharia Law? I would suppose that your comment about their "patriarchal society", you wouldn't. In that case, would you be willing to be labelled in terms of racism and tyranny just to live free - to oppose either yourself or other Americans to be placed under the Sharia Law interpreted by Muslim clerics? Food for thought... Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted June 16, 2009 Moderators Share Posted June 16, 2009 I took a young friend to take her drivers test. It was packed with Muslims. No crime in that if they got there first. However most failed the test and went on to berate the instructors and the clerks. Demanding they give the license anyway. One nearby town has had town meetings interrupted on more than one occasion. The muslims don't seem to care that we have laws and restrictions. They yell discrimination as quickly as something is denied. Protesting that the meetings are timed to interfere with their evening prayers. The fabric store gets ready for battle when several come in at once. Demanding to dicker and get a reduced price,often driving away paying,non complaining customers. I'm curious, Bonnie, you seem to have encounters with the worst kind of every group of people. "packed with muslums" .....I guess that's a bad thing for you. I grew up in a community packed with Muslims. It was great. I never had any problems. A lot of my school friends were islamic. I been to places "packed with baptists", "packed with pentecostals" packed with Jews. "No crime if they got there first"?????? LOL what does that mean? I could write more but...... Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted June 16, 2009 Moderators Share Posted June 16, 2009 Sort of like saying the very few Jewish terrorists before 1948 were indiciative of the whole Jewish people in Palestine prior to the establishing of Israel as a nation in 1948... Te point for me is that the Jewish people are accepting of terrorism/terrorist when it comes t establishing the state of Israel. Most nations will accept terrorism/terrorist activity if it serves their interests. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Quote: I'm curious, Bonnie, you seem to have encounters with the worst kind of every group of people. And you Lazarus seem to devote your time to making anything said by me different or you add to what I said. Quote: "packed with muslums" .....I guess that's a bad thing for you. As usual you are guessing wrong. It is a fairly small office,we were there early as the young driver had a early time slot. Packed with muslims mean exactly that. Nothing more and nothing less. Besides the office workers and driving instructor we were the only caucasians there. All chairs were taken by muslims,most standing room was taken by muslims.without a time slot reserved for them. Tell me how you would have liked that phrased and I will be happy to change it for you. The employee's were trying to handle the situation with little success. Those that had returned from their test and had failed were berating the employee's for "not passing them anyway,they could do that if they wanted to" Quote: I grew up in a community packed with Muslims. It was great. I never had any problems. A lot of my school friends were islamic. I been to places "packed with baptists", "packed with pentecostals" packed with Jews. Congratulations. For many coming to this country do so because they want a better life. More and more come and take advantage of what the US offers. All the while insisting on this country change and adapt to the same culture they left behind. Living off the same people they so despise and disrespect. Quote: "No crime if they got there first"?????? LOL what does that mean? Not what you would like it to mean. Had this group had time slots and treated others with the respect they demand no problem. Had they understood others in this country have rights as well as they do so be it. They were rude,argumentative,and wanted special privileges. Quote: I could write more but...... I am sure you could and have little doubt that you will continue to write more and put your spin on what certain posters say Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Quote: I'm curious, Bonnie, you seem to have encounters with the worst kind of every group of people. "packed with muslums" .....I guess that's a bad thing for you. I grew up in a community packed with Muslims. It was great. I never had any problems. A lot of my school friends were islamic. I been to places "packed with baptists", "packed with pentecostals" packed with Jews. "No crime if they got there first"?????? LOL what does that mean? I could write more but...... I do not worship at the altar of diversity. Nor am I big at finding all that come here as paragons of virtue,consideration. and wanting the US to change because they are here. I don't develop friendships because someone is a different race or culture just to show how broad minded I am. Do I believe as so many seem to that Muslims are members of a faith that is peaceful,tolerant,and accepting of all? NOPE Do I think they are all evil? NOPE Some of the incidents that have occurred involving muslims should have resulted in a backlash from the peaceful,tolerant,and accepting portion of the muslim faith. What there has been is tepid at best Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Originally Posted By: Ted_Oplinger Sort of like saying the very few Jewish terrorists before 1948 were indiciative of the whole Jewish people in Palestine prior to the establishing of Israel as a nation in 1948... The point for me is that the Jewish people are accepting of terrorism/terrorist when it comes t establishing the state of Israel. Most nations will accept terrorism/terrorist activity if it serves their interests. Well, Lazarus, that would then be true of most every ill behavior and vice, when WE are the beneficiary. That's the old "US vs THEM" mentality. A bit more difficult when it is a personal benefit, and the people have a sympathetic tie, right Lazarus? Don't go after mine...they must be justified in doing XXXXXX, else they wouldn't have done it...right? Like the young woman prostituting herself to make her family's budget meet the necessaries of the month? Like the young boy selling drugs for the same reason? Would you "look the other way" if that was your family/friend? Or would you call the spade a spade? Or would we find it easy to condemn, since the situation doesn't apply to our direct circumstance and we don't have a personal stake in the issue? Now then, having said all that...could it be possible to condemn the action, even though you personally benefitted by it? I know - a difficult place to be, but we are all placed in this position at some point in our lives. Whether a small issue or great, the UNDERLYING principle is always the same: Do we condemn the evil we have personally benefitted by? If you can give yourself that particular benefit of doubt...why not those Jewish leaders circa 1948? Why not? Because they're JEWS?? And they're SO BAD (at least, according to the world's various propaganda outlets)??? It has been established that most Jewish leaders, coming out of WWII, did not condone the use of terror due to their direct experience they had in Germany just a few years previous. That's where the "guilt of the Jews" argument falls apart, Lazarus. While you may not try to use moral equivalency between the Jewish leadership in 1948, and the avenues they channeled their efforts through, to draw a connection to the Palestinains today, with THEIR stated intentions, other have - and it is an argument that I find cannot be entertained without letting go of some serious Biblical principles. "Moral equivalency" is a position I find to be intellectually dishonest, at the very least, for I believe every person and group will be judged on its own merit/evil before the standards of God, not to an "equivalency" used to justify/condemn. My point is that while they may have benefitted, they did not condone, and sought to purge their ranks of that behavior. The Palestinian leadership not only does not, it WILL not engage in such nobility. Not only does it NOT engage in true peace, it deceives its own people to think evil is noble when perpetrated against someone they will not have sympathy for. In all truthfulness, the Arabs had the chance for a peaceful settlement even before 1948. They turned it down, in order to pursue the continuance of Hitler's work with a religious reason. My friend, that is established history. It is also established history the Arabs have not wished to abide by international law since then, and have used the peace process for disingenuous means - something the Jewish leadership did not do in the years leading up to 1948, when the collective body of the world voted to give the Jews a homeland. While it isn't perfect as a nation, Israel does treat Arabs much, much better than Arabs do Jews when the roles are reversed. No amount of economic conditions, bad behavior, or social deprivation can justify evil. Hatred and evil acts are always chosen things, not forced; they are to be condemned, not sympathized with. This is true whether it is one of our own, or not. But the truth is...sinful flesh will make excuses for those who are "our own", while condemning those who are "not". Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted June 16, 2009 Moderators Share Posted June 16, 2009 Quote: Protesting that the meetings are timed to interfere with their evening prayers. Kinda like those SDAs who protest if something is scheduled on a Saturday... Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Quote: Protesting that the meetings are timed to interfere with their evening prayers. Kinda like those SDAs who protest if something is scheduled on a Saturday... It does seem you have a dim view of SDA's in general. No,it is not similar. Very few SDA's protest. I have yet to hear of a group of SDA's protesting the time of a town meeting when it interfered with weds night prayer meeting. While SDA's may have earned your scorn somehow you are shifting focus from the topic. Most of us frequently run into activities that are on sabbath. Most do not protest or cause a disturbance. Most are not being provided subsidized housing,medical and education and then keep demanding more. Demand the country they have come to for a better life accommodate their culture. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 But we do ask to have Sabbaths off from work, which is often more of a problem than wearing a hijab. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 My point is that we do ask our culture to cater to us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Wouldn't it be a nice gesture if the town would be considerate enough to schedule their meetings when more people could attend? There's nothing wrong with their asking, but they should not be demanding it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 But we do ask to have Sabbaths off from work, which is often more of a problem than wearing a hijab. You are straying off a bit here. Nothing was said about dress whatsoever. Dress however can be a problem. Another area they seem to feel discriminated against. Some factories will not hire those in the muslim dress because of the danger around machines, No problem,they still protest they are being discriminated against. The employer has the right to protect himself against lawsuits Asking for sabbath off should be done at time of hire. If it presents undo hardship the employer can say no. As far as I know there is not a group of SDA's that will then go protest the company. Demanding in a manner that is disruptive is wrong no matter who does it. Housing,cash allotment,medical and education are given free of strings generally. They are not prohibited from practisng their religion in the manner they see fit. The practise of their religion does not include protests when special consideration is not given them Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.