Moderators Bravus Posted June 10, 2009 Moderators Share Posted June 10, 2009 If you can find that anywhere in anything I wrote, rather than in your projections, please show it to me. I clearly said understanding is not condoning. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Quote: Interesting, though...do you really believe the Great Commission in the Gospels? Do you not realize that for the Great Commission to succeed as Christ intends, the Muslim nations must be necessarily aggrieved, and claim "dehumanization" according to their perspective? Because it isn't Islam? Aparently you know very little about Islam, and the fact that it does not call for "war with infidels", but calls to protect themselves against "infidel invasion". The Great Commission has nothing to do with bombing other countries and setting up military bases! In fact, the great commission somehow completely leaves the military out of it. If you look at disciples, they were beaten... cursed... but they kept coming back begging and unarmed. And that's how the lives were changed. Not by beating people into submission. They weren't the "Christian Soldiers" bringing "peace to the land". Those who live by the sword will die by the sword. The message is fairly clear. There's a difference between protection, and preemptive warfare. Anybody could be a potential "terrorist" when you accept the booga-booga of preemptive warfare. Above all, I think we all should learn that, just like in case with Palestinian suicide bombers... the bombs don't magically evade the innocent and just target the guilty. But, in the land of Islam, the terrorists are most likely the people who lost their loved ones because US bombs can't tell the difference between the good and the bad guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 No-one shows people the other side of Israel... the new generation growing up... and I've talked to some of these people who think that they are God's gift to earth. I certainly don't think that all Israelis are like that, because everyone does have fair share of bad apples, yet somehow the zealots are the one making it to the top and fill the military ranks and conducting the policies of the country. Don't watch the video if you can't handle language. And while I realize that there's a fair share of hate to pull from both sides, I just want to show that Israeli are not saints people make them out to be. Just imagine some of such people filling the ranks of IDF. Where will their sense of morality guide them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Just imagine some of such people filling the ranks of IDF. Where will their sense of morality guide them? I think they are already there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted June 10, 2009 Moderators Share Posted June 10, 2009 Interesting discussion...people have forgot their history of how the Jews used terrorism to 'get' their land from the British. Contacting the dormant Jewish underground, Irgun Zvai Leumi, Begin set about planning a Jewish uprising against the British authorities. This began in 1944, but increased in pace and scope immediately after World War II and continued until late 1947. Begin ordered many of the Irgun's operations, including the Akko prison breakout and the destruction of the central British administrative offices in the King David Hotel. Following the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, Begin disbanded the Irgun. I think 80 people died in the bombing of the King David hotel. Interesting how Israel elected a former terrorist to be Prime Minister. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planey Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Interesting how Israel elected a former terrorist to be Prime Minister. Naughty, naughty, Lazarus. You know that Israelis are not terrorists. They are, of course, freedom fighters. Graeme Quote Graeme____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Originally Posted By: lazarus Interesting how Israel elected a former terrorist to be Prime Minister. Naughty, naughty, Lazarus. You know that Israelis are not terrorists. They are, of course, freedom fighters. Graeme I am not familiar with what Lazerus posted but why would you presume that if in fact Begin?? was a terrorists as we understand terrorist that some or all of us would deny that? If in fact he was hew as no different than what is describing the actions of Hamas. Number one for me ,did he use innocent children to achieve his goals blowing them to bits,did he use women and children as human shields. Was it his stated intent to kill all of those he saw as the enemy? If this is what he has done and targeted civilians he is/was no better. The very quick scanning I have done so far does not describe a man that behaved in such a cowardly manner. I really don't know so am assuming you do or you would not have made that type of statement. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted June 10, 2009 Moderators Share Posted June 10, 2009 The explosion occurred at 12:37. It caused the collapse of the western half of the southern wing of the hotel. Soon after the explosion, rescuers from the Royal Engineers arrived with heavy lifting equipment. Later that night, the sappers were formed into three groups, with each working an eight hour shift. The rescue operation lasted for the next three days and 2,000 lorry loads of rubble was removed. From the wreckage and rubble the rescuers managed to extract six survivors. The last to be found was D. C. Thompson, 24 hours after the building had collapsed. He appeared to be more or less unhurt, but later died due to shock.[17] 91 people were killed, most of them being staff of the hotel or Secretariat: 21 were first-rank government officials; 49 were second-rank clerks, typists and messengers, junior members of the Secretariat, employees of the hotel and canteen workers; 13 were soldiers; 3 policemen; and 5 were members of the public. By nationality, there were 41 Arabs, 28 British citizens, 17 Jews, 2 Armenians, 1 Russian, 1 Greek and 1 Egyptian. 46 people were injured.[3][4] Some of the deaths and injuries occurred in the road outside the hotel and in adjacent buildings. No identifiable traces were found of thirteen of those killed.[3] One of the dead was Yulius Jacobs, an Irgun sympathizer.[12] Avraham Abramovitz, an Irgun militant, also died in the blast.[18] Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Quote: If you can find that anywhere in anything I wrote, rather than in your projections, please show it to me. I clearly said understanding is not condoning. I was not addressing you. The reply was to fccol. I'm not the one projecting. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Sounds to me like he was targeting civilians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planey Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 And then there was the Deir Yassin massacre which took place on April 9, 1948, when around 120 fighters from the Irgun and Lehi Zionist paramilitary groups advanced on Deir Yassin near Jerusalem, a Palestinian-Arab village of around 600 people. The invasion of the village occurred as Jewish forces sought to relieve the blockade of Jerusalem during the period of civil war that preceded the end of British rule in Palestine. Around 107 villagers were killed during and after the fighting. Some were shot on the spot; others, including women and children, were taken to a Lehi base in West Jerusalem and killed there. Graeme Quote Graeme____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 And then there was the Deir Yassin massacre which took place on April 9, 1948, when around 120 fighters from the Irgun and Lehi Zionist paramilitary groups advanced on Deir Yassin near Jerusalem, a Palestinian-Arab village of around 600 people. The invasion of the village occurred as Jewish forces sought to relieve the blockade of Jerusalem during the period of civil war that preceded the end of British rule in Palestine. Around 107 villagers were killed during and after the fighting. Some were shot on the spot; others, including women and children, were taken to a Lehi base in West Jerusalem and killed there. Graeme While all this may be true and if it is a targeting of civilians because they could and to instill terror and compliance..No question but wrong. No question that should have been condemned in the strongest way. I am guessing there might be more to it. You are talking of 1948 or there abouts as far as I can see. Are you absolving or agreeing the Palestinians(Hamas) have the right and should be understood why they are using human bombs this many years later? Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 And then there was the Deir Yassin massacre which took place on April 9, 1948, when around 120 fighters from the Irgun and Lehi Zionist paramilitary groups advanced on Deir Yassin near Jerusalem, a Palestinian-Arab village of around 600 people. The invasion of the village occurred as Jewish forces sought to relieve the blockade of Jerusalem during the period of civil war that preceded the end of British rule in Palestine. Around 107 villagers were killed during and after the fighting. Some were shot on the spot; others, including women and children, were taken to a Lehi base in West Jerusalem and killed there. Graeme I think you forgot a small portion of the story. This does not appear to be "business as usual" for Israel. In fact it doesn't appear to be sanctioned by Israel leaders at all. Can someone explain when Palestinians have blown up a innocent young person in an attempt to kill as many civilians as possible there has been condemnation by the Palestinian governing body. The killings were condemned by the leadership of the Haganah, the Jewish community's main paramilitary force, and by the area's two chief rabbis. The Jewish Agency for Israel sent King Abdullah of Jordan a letter of apology, which he rebuffed.[2] Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 13, 2009 Moderators Share Posted June 13, 2009 Can someone explain when Palestinians have blown up a innocent young person in an attempt to kill as many civilians as possible there has been condemnation by the Palestinian governing body. Never, at least far as I know. It seems to me that such suicides are not only accepted but encouraged on the part of the Palestinians. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planey Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 I was not suggesting that these attacks by Israeli forces in any way justifies the present attacks by the radical Palestinian groups. Rather it shows that when any group feels that it is being imposed upon by a larger, more powerful group then it will often retaliate by methods which are condemned by most others. While we would condemn these tactics we can at least understand the motivation behind them. As I said before, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Graeme Quote Graeme____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted June 13, 2009 Moderators Share Posted June 13, 2009 The fixation on child suicide bombers (have there actually been any/many of these?) has begged the question of whether it is *really* more or less moral to kill a person with a suicide vest or an air-to-surface missile. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 I was not suggesting that these attacks by Israeli forces in any way justifies the present attacks by the radical Palestinian groups. Rather it shows that when any group feels that it is being imposed upon by a larger, more powerful group then it will often retaliate by methods which are condemned by most others. While we would condemn these tactics we can at least understand the motivation behind them. As I said before, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Graeme It sounds like the attack was by a rogue group. Their motivation in committing this kind of act is moot. When they are able to point blank kill a child or a innocent civilan because they can and for the fear factor,the motivation is evil. Hamas is the leader of Palestine is it not? Hamas is a terrorist group. Only in the minds of those that are willing to accept pure evil as a motivation can that be likened to a freedom fighter. Seems I have heard Castro and others of his ilk was a freedom fighter. Their idea of freedom was to have the freedom to control,to dictate,to keep in abject poverty,to imprison and kill Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 The fixation on child suicide bombers (have there actually been any/many of these?) has begged the question of whether it is *really* more or less moral to kill a person with a suicide vest or an air-to-surface missile. Unfortunately I think you are serious. Depends I guess on what you call a child. A teenager to me is a child yet. Lacking the maturity of adult years. There has been more than one. Go back a couple of pages on this topic and you will find one mother very proud that her three teenage sons blew themselves to bits. While to some of you there is no difference in a civilian young person killing himself and other civilians including children and war. We live in a world where there will always be war, most rational people expect at least the civilian population is not to be used in that way. Israel is surrounded by those that would like to see them extinct Maybe they should just say please,let us exist. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Quote: the question of whether it is *really* more or less moral to kill a person with a suicide vest or an air-to-surface missile. That question itself assumes a moral equivalence to all "killing," something which neither the Bible nor any government, past or present accepts. It is commonly phrased that way today, but it is a repudiation of more than 3000 years of moral philosophy and spiritual teaching, across cultures and in very different geography. In short, it is a retreat from morality itself. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted June 13, 2009 Moderators Share Posted June 13, 2009 Two points in relation to that: 1. It may make a moral difference to the killer, but it makes no difference at all to the victim: he or she is still dead. This means that *any* claim that a particular killing is *necessary* must be examined incredibly strictly, and as many other alternatives as possible - including expensive ones - tried. 2. Intentions do make a difference. But negligence or lack of appropriate care is also an issue. "My intention is to kill a terrorist leader", but when I fire a high explosive device into a densely populated area, 'collateral damage' - or, to use a less sanitised phrase, the killing of unarmed civilians of all ages - is not only a risk it's a near-certainty. In that situation my strong belief is that if you can't get it done without those deaths, you don't get to do it: you find ways to infiltrate or to snipe or in some other way to achieve your objective. There is no sainted side and no entirely evil side in this war. And killing is inevitable in war. But the claim that the Israeli side is saintly because it is not their *intention* to kill civilians is not sustainable, given their intentional acts where the inevitable result is to kill civilians. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 No, I haven't forgotten my Middle east history. As was mentioned in a previous post, the Jewish terrorists did NOT have the permission and blessings of the Jewish leadership that was trying to negoiate with both the British and the Arabs for a peaceful homeland establishment...just like the diehard zealots of the Jews wanting to re-establish the Davidic kingdom do NOT carry their religious nor political leader's blessings. Quite different, though, with the Arabs and Palestinians, who DO have the blessings of their political and religious leaders. Showing a video clip and applying it to represent it as the prevailing attitude among Jews, to show "hate enough on both sides" does not the truth make. Infidel invasion? It appears certain have indeed forgotten their history. If you really want to take it all the way back to Mohammed, who was it who swore vengence against the Jews for turning him down in his fight with non-Islam Arabs 1400 years ago? Which religion swept across the Middle East, destroying every culture and taking over lands previously held by Christians, Jews, or pagans? Until they swept across North Africa, and conquered Spain? Othman Turks? Saracens? Remember those? "Jihad" is a global war to take lands and religion away from others, not to resist invasion from infidel cultures. Their history is quite proof of that. It was the Islamic invasion and take-over of the Christian holy sites that provoked a overly proud pontiff to declare the Crusades in response. After those failed disasterously, the Islamic armies again began pushing forward into lands not their own, until they conquered previously Christian Asia Minor (what is now Islamic Turkey) and pushed up into the Balkans, and down into Greece. There was a time the Mediterranean Sea was bordered nearly completely by Islam - broken only by France, Italy, and the eastern shore of the Adriatic (the lands of the Serbs, Croats, and Slovaks). To sum it up: Islam has been a scourge to apostate Christendom for the last 1350 years, and will continue to be as long as the message to repent and return to their First Love goes unheeded. The army of locusts still goes forth, seeking whomever to sting who are not sealed of God... Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Quote: 1. It may make a moral difference to the killer, but it makes no difference at all to the victim: he or she is still dead. It makes a difference to more than just the 'killer.' It makes a difference to God, for one thing, and it makes a difference to the type of society that survives. Equating murder and accidents is reductionism that returns us to the antedeluvian chaos. Quote: But negligence or lack of appropriate care is also an issue. "My intention is to kill a terrorist leader", but when I fire a high explosive device into a densely populated area, 'collateral damage' - or, to use a less sanitised phrase, the killing of unarmed civilians of all ages - is not only a risk it's a near-certainty. Intentions are demonstrated by the care taken in light of what is knowable-- and the ultimate outcome is never knowable. And "the killing of unarmed civilians" is not only de-sanitized, it is negatively skewed. "Targeting of civilians" is the crucial factor. As already mentioned, terrorists intentionally place themselves to maximize civilian casualties--their own as well as their enemies. In such a case, the responsibility for those un-targeted civilians rests on those attempting to use them for cover (and propaganda value) more than on those attempting to limit those casualties. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted June 13, 2009 Moderators Share Posted June 13, 2009 Maybe 9 minors as suicide bombers, with the youngest 16. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bombers_in_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict Hardly routine use of children, and as pointed out in this article, the use of child soldiers is *far* more of an issue in Africa. Basically, no *children* have been used as suicide bombers. A few people in their late teens - an age that was considered adulthood as little as a couple of generations ago - have. It's a horrible thing, absolutely and without reservation. But it's no basis for an entire set of beliefs and policy settings in relation to the entire war. And it's no basis for this bizarre and insane claim that 'Arabs don't love their children'. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Bravus, Like you, I don't believe Arabs hate their children. I do see a mindset very different than ours, that they are quite proud if their children do go on to choose to commit some terrorist act and be slain in the process. It's not the same as our thinking when a military Mom/Dad is informed of the loss of their child. Comparatively few children are used to blow-up others - but it has happened. Yet that does not make generally accepted in their culture. Sort of like saying the very few Jewish terrorists before 1948 were indiciative of the whole Jewish people in Palestine prior to the establishing of Israel as a nation in 1948... Rolling on...it's getting late! Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 No, I haven't forgotten my Middle east history. As was mentioned in a previous post, the Jewish terrorists did NOT have the permission and blessings of the Jewish leadership that was trying to negoiate with both the British and the Arabs for a peaceful homeland establishment...just like the diehard zealots of the Jews wanting to re-establish the Davidic kingdom do NOT carry their religious nor political leader's blessings. Quite different, though, with the Arabs and Palestinians, who DO have the blessings of their political and religious leaders. Showing a video clip and applying it to represent it as the prevailing attitude among Jews, to show "hate enough on both sides" does not the truth make. Infidel invasion? It appears certain have indeed forgotten their history. If you really want to take it all the way back to Mohammed, who was it who swore vengence against the Jews for turning him down in his fight with non-Islam Arabs 1400 years ago? Which religion swept across the Middle East, destroying every culture and taking over lands previously held by Christians, Jews, or pagans? Until they swept across North Africa, and conquered Spain? Othman Turks? Saracens? Remember those? "Jihad" is a global war to take lands and religion away from others, not to resist invasion from infidel cultures. Their history is quite proof of that. It was the Islamic invasion and take-over of the Christian holy sites that provoked a overly proud pontiff to declare the Crusades in response. After those failed disasterously, the Islamic armies again began pushing forward into lands not their own, until they conquered previously Christian Asia Minor (what is now Islamic Turkey) and pushed up into the Balkans, and down into Greece. There was a time the Mediterranean Sea was bordered nearly completely by Islam - broken only by France, Italy, and the eastern shore of the Adriatic (the lands of the Serbs, Croats, and Slovaks). To sum it up: Islam has been a scourge to apostate Christendom for the last 1350 years, and will continue to be as long as the message to repent and return to their First Love goes unheeded. Hoping your response was meant as a general statement as I agree with what you have said. Regardless I have a very difficult time trying to find the "kind,gentile,non-aggressive" muslim. The religious practises of Islam does not give me that warm fuzzy feeling Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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