LifeHiscost Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 And if it's not, can the individual's actions make a difference? "If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. "1 Corinthians 3:17 NKJV Blessings! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutz13 Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Is God bound to the ways of this world? "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways, 'says the Lord'"(Isaiah 55:8) "My Kingdom is not of this world. If My Kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My Kingdom is not from here."(John 18:36) "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?"(Matthew 26:52-53) Is God limited to the ways of this world? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephanus Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Of course it is inevitable, but is a STRANGE ACT on the part of a loving God. "For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act." Isaiah 28:21 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutz13 Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Quote: Of course it is inevitable, but is a STRANGE ACT on the part of a loving God. Interesting. So God changes? "For I am the Lord, I do not change;"(Malachi 3:6) "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and forever"(Hebrews 13:8) Just because the worlds only way to get rid of evil is an eye for an eye strategy, doesn't mean God is bound to the same ways. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts"(Isaiah 55:9) God has ways you do not even know about, because your thinking is stuck to this world. While His thoughts are above the Heavens. Since God never changes, His wrath upon Saul, Jesus, and Israel among just a few examples, are going to be the same forever. "...Therefore Saul took a sword and fell on it."(1 Samuel 31:4) "So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance. But he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse."(1 Chronicles 10:13-14) "And I gave you a king in My anger, and took him away in My wrath."(Hosea 13:11) Saul forsook God, and God did the loving thing to do and respect Saul's wishes. God pulled away and took His protection with Him. And Saul destroyed himself. God never changes, so His ways are the same forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephanus Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Just because the worlds only way to get rid of evil is an eye for an eye strategy, doesn't mean God is bound to the same ways. I think you miss the point here. My point is namely that it is NOT in God's nature to destroy, but to build up. In order for this sin to be eradicated, God HAS TO destroy that which He so lovingly formed at the very beginning. God is not bound by the principle 'an eye for an eye' (which incidentally was instituted by God for specific circumstances and not as a general rule) but His creation elected to NOT follow Him and should therefor suffer the consequences of such disobedience. It is not a matter of revenge for God, but a case of restitution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutz13 Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Quote: I think you miss the point here. My point is namely that it is NOT in God's nature to destroy, but to build up.In order for this sin to be eradicated, God HAS TO destroy that which He so lovingly formed at the very beginning. God is not bound by the principle 'an eye for an eye' (which incidentally was instituted by God for specific circumstances and not as a general rule) but His creation elected to NOT follow Him and should therefor suffer the consequences of such disobedience. It is not a matter of revenge for God, but a case of restitution. So you are saying God has to change to deal with a sin problem? Or will He destroy us the same way He destroyed Saul? Or the same way Jesus was killed, he did suffer the wrath of God as well. "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"(Matthew 28:46) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephanus Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Why should God wish to change when He promised destruction from the very beginning of all of those that are against Him? You belabour or confuse a point that is simple to understand. God does not change! When He said (in the beginning) that He will bring death for disobedience, why do you wish to imply that I say that He changed or has to change to fulfill His promise (of DESTRUCTION)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsailor29 Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Why should God wish to change when He promised destruction from the very beginning of all of those that are against Him?You belabour or confuse a point that is simple to understand. God does not change! When He said (in the beginning) that He will bring death for disobedience, why do you wish to imply that I say that He changed or has to change to fulfill His promise (of DESTRUCTION)? I think God loves His creation. If we would not destroy our children, why would we think God would destroy His creation. All the talk about destruction is just talk. Actual destruction will never take place. All the talk about it is just encouragement to be good children. Quote Prs God, frm whm blssngs flw http://www.zoelifestyle.com/jmccall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 And if it's not, can the individual's actions make a difference? "If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. "1 Corinthians 3:17 NKJV Blessings! We've been over this.... We have already noted that God did not execute Christ, but we still have that perplexing language stating He did. What can it mean? Principle: God sees and describes Himself as doing what He does not prevent. Since God could have prevented these incidents but chose not to do so, He depicts Himself as the actual instrument or performing agent. Note how often He describes them as His own doing in vivid, convincing terms. Yet we are justified, if they do not make sense in terms of the total picture or in terms of God's character as Christ expressed it, to wonder if He simply could have but didn't prevent it. Why would God choose to so express Himself? His reason is not unknown in the human realm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephanus Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Question : Is the story of Genesis 6 through 9 true or is it not? Does the flood fit the definition for DESTRUCTION? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 8, 2009 Moderators Share Posted June 8, 2009 Just tagging on. If I can't depend on what the Bible says about hell, how could I depend on what it says about heaven? If you can explain away hell, then there is no logical reason whatsoever why I can't explain away heaven as just some fantasy. If you can explain away what God does negatively, then there is no logical reason why the things God does positively could not be explained away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephanus Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 If I can't depend on what the Bible says about hell, how could I depend on what it says about heaven? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted June 8, 2009 Administrators Share Posted June 8, 2009 If God can turn mud into man, create order out of chaos and confusion (Hebrew meaning of words translated as "without form"), make something out of nothing, raise the dead, recreate himself as a baby born to a human, create clean, pure hearts in sinful people - why worry about what God does and how he fixes this sorry mess we find ourselves in? God will make all things new again. (Rev 21:5) That is the ultimate and final make-over story. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutz13 Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 If God can turn mud into man, create order out of chaos and confusion (Hebrew meaning of words translated as "without form"), make something out of nothing, raise the dead, recreate himself as a baby born to a human, create clean, pure hearts in sinful people - why worry about what God does and how he fixes this sorry mess we find ourselves in? God will make all things new again. (Rev 21:5) That is the ultimate and final make-over story. I really like what you said. The problem is, is that I was taught to be afraid of God. That if I didn't follow His laws, I was doomed to die! The problem is, is that we have people actually preaching that God is going to burn everyone in hell unless they follow Him. My problem with this theology is. God is love right? Since the wicked die at His second coming, why would He raise them back up again, just to fry them all... I know why I would do it: "Yeah...see that suckers! Yeah..what's up now...bet you wish you would believed in me! Bet you're sorry now!!! Now get ready to fry!!! " A pride thing. Though I do not think God has this problem. So, I will drop this once someone can explain to me, why on earth God needs to raise up the people He supposedly fried to death at Sodom and Gomorrah. Or all the people He drowned in the flood, just to kill them all over again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutz13 Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 You're right though Tom. I should probably ignore all of these "God is going to kill you" people and just remember: If God can turn mud into man, create order out of chaos and confusion (Hebrew meaning of words translated as "without form"), make something out of nothing, raise the dead, recreate himself as a baby born to a human, create clean, pure hearts in sinful people - why worry about what God does and how he fixes this sorry mess we find ourselves in? God will make all things new again. (Rev 21:5) That is the ultimate and final make-over story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephanus Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 I should probably ignore all of these "God is going to kill you" people and just remember: Maybe that could work for everybody! In other words accept the Scripture you like, ignore those that you don't and rubbish those that you dislike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsailor29 Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 So, I will drop this once someone can explain to me, why on earth God needs to raise up the people He supposedly fried to death at Sodom and Gomorrah. Or all the people He drowned in the flood, just to kill them all over again. You are right. It does not add up. That's one of the reasons I believe He is raising all of them up again so He can save them. Quote Prs God, frm whm blssngs flw http://www.zoelifestyle.com/jmccall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted June 8, 2009 Administrators Share Posted June 8, 2009 The older I get the more amazed I become at God's inherent power to take bad and make it good. The very essense of our salvation is God's power to use death to bring life. God loves a paradox and there is nothing more profoundly paradoxical than the life-giving properties of death and destruction. The doomsday pessimists would rather see the vengence thing played out than to see God remake everything, and everyone, new again. Having some sinful people that God can't fix so that he has to destroy them completely is the rock he created too big for him to lift and carry. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 No matter how we try to twist and turn away from this, God does destroy: 2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Now Robert and Lutz will make the argument that this is somehow Satans work. But I cannot understand how they can even begin to come to that conclusion on this text. God destroys, this text is so plain as to make it absurd to deny it... Mark :-) Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Question : Is the story of Genesis 6 through 9 true or is it not? Does the flood fit the definition for DESTRUCTION? Was there a flood? Yes....Did God do it? Depends....If you understand God's agape love, no, He is assuming the blame. If you believe God has human characteristics, yes, you'll think He did it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Just tagging on. If I can't depend on what the Bible says about hell, how could I depend on what it says about heaven? Here are 4 problems: 1] Your human nature 2] Your preconceived ideas 3] tradition 4] your desires to place human attributes onto God. Summary? You've got problems teehe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Now Robert and Lutz will make the argument that this is somehow Satans work. More lies... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephanus Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Makes sense, Twilight. We become JUDGES of the LAW when we believe what God has to say on some issues we like but DENY those that we dislike. James 4:11 says ". . .: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 9, 2009 Moderators Share Posted June 9, 2009 Originally Posted By: Lutz13 So, I will drop this once someone can explain to me, why on earth God needs to raise up the people He supposedly fried to death at Sodom and Gomorrah. Or all the people He drowned in the flood, just to kill them all over again. You are right. It does not add up. That's one of the reasons I believe He is raising all of them up again so He can save them. Second chance? Not a chance per Scripture! Raise the wicked to save them? Would kindly show chapter and verse where such a notion is found? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 9, 2009 Moderators Share Posted June 9, 2009 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo Just tagging on. If I can't depend on what the Bible says about hell, how could I depend on what it says about heaven? Here are 4 problems: 1] Your human nature 2] Your preconceived ideas 3] tradition 4] your desires to place human attributes onto God. Summary? You've got problems teehe I believe what the Book says. I don't use fancy theological footwork to explain away what I don't like and then create more problems. The above problems are YOUR problems! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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