Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

You are asking me to trust your understanding Sky, I cannot do that.

I have to see the reasoning line by line for myself, that is the correct process.

This bears further thought. :-)

To summarise:

It is possible that when the Bible talks about God destroying the wicked that these elements are involved:

1. Gods withdrawal of grace brings man a mental and spiritual torture as a type of hell fire.

2. These men are then destroyed after turning their own weapons upon themselves.

3. Satan is destroyed by these men.

Now this seems to be the main thrust being presented here, would you agree?

Mark

That's pretty much it Mark. Very well said!

Thank you.

sky

*teresaq's post was very enlightening.

[skyblue888]

I don't believe the language of the Bible is Satanic. You say that is what Satan wants us to believe, and I do believe what it says.

wow Richard, who ever suggested anything like that? on the crontrary the language of the Bible is very divine and full of hidden treasures.

sky

[skyblue888]

Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it. And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah, and God smote him there for his error. 2 Samuel 6:6, 7

The fate of Uzzah was a divine judgment upon the violation of a most explicit command. Through Moses the Lord had given special instruction concerning the transportation of the ark. None but the priests, the descendants of Aaron, were to touch it, or even to look upon it uncovered. . . . {CC 176.2}

Again, consider the judgment that fell upon Uzzah. As in David's reign the ark was being carried to Jerusalem, Uzzah put forth his hand to keep it steady. For presuming to touch the symbol of God's presence, he was smitten with instant death. {MH 436.1}

Of course it was a divine judgment and he was smitten with instant death but how he was killed it is not revealed. King Saul died by divine judgment too but God did not touch him and yet it is written, "God slew him."

sky

[skyblue888]

"Satan is the destroyer." 6 T 388. True, he is the destroyer now, but in the end he will become the destroyed

Of course he will become the destroyed and he will fall at the hand of the most terrible of the nations as it is clearly shown in Ezekiel 28:6-10.

"Evil shall slay the wicked." Ps.34:21. This has been true all down through the ages, but in the end God will pour out his judgment without mixture.

God does not change in the end. His ways are always the same. the same language that is used for the destruction of the wicked at the end is exactly the same language that is used to describe the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah or of the antedeluviens.

Originally Posted By: skyblue

At the time of the executive judgment it will be a similar scenario except that at that time Satan and his evil angels will have to face the fury of the unsaved of all ages.

What can humans do to hurt Satan and his fallen angels? Absolutely nothing. They can have all the fury in the world, but that is nothing against celestial beings.

Not long ago I read a satement by Mrs. White which said that by that time Satan and his angels will have been stripped of their power. I need to find that statement.

The wicked people and Satan are not going to kill themselves and burn down the solar system in the process. They just don't have that kind of power.

You are speculating here Richard. Once the wicked will have annihilated themselves, and this will be as a result of divine judgment, the Lord will purify the earth and He will re-create the entire solar system and probably beyond the solar system. It says the heavens shall pass away.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2Pe 3:10

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained....

....Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294}

It is quotes like this that give me cause to pause.

It seems very straight forward.

Mark

Indeed that is pretty hard to get around.

in Christ,

Bob

[teresaq]

You are asking me to trust your understanding Sky, I cannot do that.

I have to see the reasoning line by line for myself, that is the correct process.

This bears further thought. :-)

yes you are right. in all honesty i am not fully convinced as to what will happen, while others are emphatically convinced one way or the other.

sometimes i am playing more "devils advocate" in throwing out how others see it. i am still in "study mode" myself.

one thing i believe is very important, and key, is studying what is written concerning the conviction experienced by the lost. there are several aspects that seem worthy of study.

in watching the various discussions elsewhere concerning this topic one point that i noticed was the "blame game". at the end when satan was thrown out of heaven he blamed God for his actions.

the very first thing adam and eve did when they fell was adam blamed eve, eve blamed the snake.

the very last thing the lost do is to blame satan and his angels.

at the second coming the lost blame family and friends they had listened to rather than follow conviction, and all still alive at that time blame the shepherds of the flock.

there is universal strife at that time also.

so study on at your leisure, there are so many aspects to this issue.

[teresaq]

What can humans do to hurt Satan and his fallen angels? Absolutely nothing. They can have all the fury in the world, but that is nothing against celestial beings.

The wicked people and Satan are not going to kill themselves and burn down the solar system in the process. They just don't have that kind of power.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2Pe 3:10

[Guest]

And then Fire comes down from heaven and burns them up.

[olger]

I reckon you're right about that...

ger

[Guest]

Thank you.

[skyblue888]

"Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King of heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them.

Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." "I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. . . . I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. G.C.672.

Once they will have destroyed themselves with their own weapons then God will purify the earth.

sky

[Guest]

Once they will have destroyed themselves with their own weapons then God will purify the earth.

sky

Ok, but I don't know where that comes from though, because it's not what Ellen White says, and it's not what the Bible says.

[Lutz13]

yes you are right. in all honesty i am not fully convinced as to what will happen, while others are emphatically convinced one way or the other.

At one time I thought I was convinced. Now I too am not too sure. There is compelling evidence for both ways.

I read "God brought fire down on them" and then from another prophet. "But he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse"(1 Chronicles 10:14). Pretty straight forward right? Yet Saul actually killed himself. So it is clear that in scripture when God doesn't use His restraining power to prevent something. He takes the blame for it.

However, this still doesn't explain Sodom and Gomorrah. Two angels and the Lord were fed by Abraham. The two angels later left and went to get Lot and destroy the cities. The Lord stayed behind and spoke with Abraham.

[Guest]

It dosn't explain Uzza either.

[Lutz13]

It dosn't explain Uzza either.

Or Ananias and Sapphira. Questions...Questions...and more questions...Richard, one thing is for sure. We will have 1000 years to get them answered!

[Guest]

And then some.

[Lutz13]

And then some.

Not for me. After that 1000 years I plan to forget all about this life!

[Guest]

Yeah, that's true, but it might come up when you're talking to Moses, or David, or somebody like that.

[teresaq]

i am willing to listen to possibilities but im not sure how that played out myself.

i have come across such information as the 7 stages of christian maturity, where ellen whites statements have been studied relative to where the people were at mentally, morally at different times.

it seems that the lower the stage we are at the more "powerful" God needs to display Himself to get our attention. saul on the road to damascus comes to mind.

to get sauls attention and get him to stop hunting down Gods people God came to Him in a dramatic and powerful way.

but saul/paul progressed rapidly through the stages to where he could say: That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

as did moses: 32Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

but basically the idea is that God reaches us where we are at, not where we are supposed to be.

and that would have to make sense. if He had waited til we became what we should be He would still be waiting to come live and die for us.

[skyblue888]

The angels of God did not destroy Sodom and Gomorrah by directly sending fire and brimstone down upon those cities any more than the angels of God will directly pour the vials of God's wrath upon the earth after the close of probation. Remember, neither God nor His angels stand toward the sinner as executioners of the sentence against transgression. These angels simply said to the angels who had watched over these cities to no longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy those cities.

And Uzzah died not by the direct decree of God anymore than the city of Jerusalem was destroyed by the direct decree of God though the language of the parable says that the king (God) was angry with the Jews and killed those murderers and burn up their city. Mrs. White, in the book The Great Controversy, p.36 clearly says that it was Satan who destroyed Jerusalem. So it was Satan also who destroyed the cities of Sodom an Gomorrah. In the 28th chapter of Ezekiel or Isaiah 14 Satan is identified as the one who destroyed the cities.

sky

[Guest]

So God told Satan to strike Uzza dead that very second?

[Guest]

Where does it say that Satan destroyed Sodom and gommorrah?

[skyblue888]

Richard, do you really take the time to read every word I post or you just skim over the post without weighing evidence? It is not so much how he died because in this instance it is not revealed. It is the principle I am discussing that God is never the executioner of the sentence against transgression. Why can't you accept that? Some day we will know how he died but for now the Lord asks us to accept the principle that neither He nor His angels are the executioners of the sentence against transgression.

sky

[skyblue888]

Where does it say that Satan destroyed Sodom and gommorrah?

I just told you Richard, in Ezekiel 28 or Isaiah 14.

Okay read Isaiah 14:16-18.

sky

"Those who see you will gaze at you, and consider you, saying: Is this not the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world as a wilderness and destroyed its cities..." Isaiah 14:16-17.

[Guest]

I just looked in both, and could not find it.