Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[teresaq]

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

How does one get around these plain words of the prophet?

you do know, richard, that early writings was of her first visions, then God gave her more information which she used to write spirit of prophecy and then the great controversy, which she later revised into the 1911 edition, right?

in other words, her first books were more of outlines, which she then filled in in later books and articles.

either way we cant use one book of hers to contradict another book.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Mark, the fact that Satan is the last one to go down does not automatically means that he didnt fall at the hand of the most violent of the nations. Holy Writ says that he will fall at the hand of the wicked. We must be careful here Mark not to put our own constructions upon the Word. Remember Satan will fight to the very bitter end and he can stay alive longer than any for he is the wickedness and the more wicked a person is the more he/she will fight to stay alive.

sky

The position you have presented earlier in the thread is that the suffering happens in the 1000 years.

i missed that post, could you point it out, please?

[Guest]

Are you saying Early Writings is wrong? I actually see more detail there, not less, like an outline. Anyway here is Great Controversy:

All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Mark, the fact that Satan is the last one to go down does not automatically means that he didnt fall at the hand of the most violent of the nations. Holy Writ says that he will fall at the hand of the wicked. We must be careful here Mark not to put our own constructions upon the Word. Remember Satan will fight to the very bitter end and he can stay alive longer than any for he is the wickedness and the more wicked a person is the more he/she will fight to stay alive.

sky

But then we have to consider that each will suffer for their sins "during" the lake of fire Sky.

The position you have presented earlier in the thread is that the suffering happens in the 1000 years.

That is not consistent with SOP, (I had a read of GC) this morning).

There is a specific suffering satan goes through, it is longer than everyone elses and he is the last one to be destroyed.

It happens when the fire consumes him.

Mark

Mark you are taking the short sight view of the whole matter. What did i say that is not consistent with the SOP? It is true that during the 1000 years Satan will suffer much mentally. All I said was that this is only the beginning of his sufferings. After the thousand years he will have to face the fury of demons to get a taste of his own medicine which he has used on humans for 6,000 years. And you can be sure that he will suffer more than anyone but the Lord will not be the master of hell fire to make sure that he stays alive so he can suffer and suffer and suffer just because God wants him to suffer. That would make God a sadistic Person.

The fire will consume him but that fire will come from his own midst in the ensuing battle, the greatest battle ever fought upon this earth with implements of war that you and I may have never seen or heard of. There will be the antediluvians there who will have plenty of time to construct powerful implements of war.

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

How does one get around these plain words of the prophet?

you do know, richard, that early writings was of her first visions, then God gave her more information which she used to write spirit of prophecy and then the great controversy, which she later revised into the 1911 edition, right?

in other words, her first books were more of outlines, which she then filled in in later books and articles.

either way we cant use one book of hers to contradict another book.

Excellent point Teresaq.

Mrs. White was shown that in order to arrive at the truth on any subject from her writings we must compare statement with statement even if these statements are separated by many years. In the Great Controversy p.672 she quotes Ezekiel 28 the very passages some say do not refer to Satan and she applies them directly to Satan and how he will be destroyed, at the hand of the terrible of the nations. Of course fire will consume him but that fire will not come directly out from the Lord upon him. Of course the language of the Bible is that it will but that language is not left to private interpretation. When comparing Scripture with Scripture and statement with statement we find that it simply means that the Lord will not intervene when the most terrible of the nations shall use powerful implements of war that they will direct at him and his evil angels.

sky

[skyblue888]

In the book The Great Controversy, in the last chapters, Mrs. White describes how at the time of the sixth plague those who had preached smooth things to their flocks will be destroyed. With fury the multitudes will turn upon the false shepherds whom they will blame for their being lost and they will burn them with fire as we are told in Rev.17:16. God will not interfere and it will be seen again that He does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression.

That scenario is a microcosm of what will take place on a much larger scale after the 1000 years when the unsaved of all ages shall turn upon Satan and his angels, the ministers of iniquity and unrighteousness, whom they will blame for being responsible for their being lost eternally. She saw how the swords that the wicked were to use to slay the people of God will at last be employed to kill their enemies. This is how God will destroy the wicked. He will leave them to themselves to reap that which they have sown. "Evil shall slay the wicked." Ps.34:21.

sky

[teresaq]

Are you saying Early Writings is wrong? I actually see more detail there, not less, like an outline. Anyway here is Great Controversy:

All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

The position you have presented earlier in the thread is that the suffering happens in the 1000 years.

That is not consistent with SOP, (I had a read of GC) this morning).

Mark you are taking the short sight view of the whole matter. What did i say that is not consistent with the SOP? It is true that during the 1000 years Satan will suffer much mentally. All I said was that this is only the beginning of his sufferings. After the thousand years he will have to face the fury of demons to get a taste of his own medicine which he has used on humans for 6,000 years. And you can be sure that he will suffer more than anyone but the Lord will not be the master of hell fire to make sure that he stays alive so he can suffer and suffer and suffer just because God wants him to suffer. That would make God a sadistic Person.

The fire will consume him but that fire will come from his own midst in the ensuing battle, the greatest battle ever fought upon this earth with implements of war that you and I may have never seen or heard of. There will be the antediluvians there who will have plenty of time to construct powerful implements of war.

yes, my brother, that is what you said, which is why i was wondering how it was misunderstood or misrepresented.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Mark you are taking the short sight view of the whole matter. What did i say that is not consistent with the SOP? It is true that during the 1000 years Satan will suffer much mentally. All I said was that this is only the beginning of his sufferings. After the thousand years he will have to face the fury of demons to get a taste of his own medicine which he has used on humans for 6,000 years. And you can be sure that he will suffer more than anyone but the Lord will not be the master of hell fire to make sure that he stays alive so he can suffer and suffer and suffer just because God wants him to suffer. That would make God a sadistic Person.

The fire will consume him but that fire will come from his own midst in the ensuing battle, the greatest battle ever fought upon this earth with implements of war that you and I may have never seen or heard of. There will be the antediluvians there who will have plenty of time to construct powerful implements of war.

[/quote']yes, my brother, that is what you said, which is why i was wondering how it was misunderstood or misrepresented.

hmmmm thanks teresaq, been wondering about that myself!

sky

[pnattmbtc]

I do not know who will be saved or not. But I just couldn't imagine sitting on the walls of new Jerusalem watching a family member being burned alive by God.

[pnattmbtc]

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

How does one get around these plain words of the prophet?

Get around? What's there to "get around"? This is clearly symbolic. "Worm of life" "least particle for it to prey upon".

[Guest]

I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained

[pnattmbtc]

All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

I think this is a better one to consider. This does seem to me to say that Satan will be the last one to die. I think it makes sense that the more sin one has had, and the more light, the more they will suffer. I think this is because it takes longer for their lives to be reviewed (i.e., that parts that cause suffering). It's not that God arbitrary does something to cause one to suffer, but sin causes suffering, so the more sin, the more suffering.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained

This is a vision. She is saying what she saw. John did the same thing in Revelation. These things are symbolic.

If we look at something like DA 764, we can see how she understood this vision, and others she had dealing with this subject:

Quote:

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: RichardHolbrook

All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

I think this is a better one to consider. This does seem to me to say that Satan will be the last one to die. I think it makes sense that the more sin one has had, and the more light, the more they will suffer. I think this is because it takes longer for their lives to be reviewed (i.e., that parts that cause suffering). It's not that God arbitrary does something to cause one to suffer, but sin causes suffering, so the more sin, the more suffering.

What does the length of the review have to do with how long one burns?

[pnattmbtc]

In my opinion, I think it's very challenging to figure out exactly what will happen, in each particular. However, the general principles we may know. For example, GC 541-543 tells us that the principles of kindness, mercy and love will be present in the judgment, and as well "love your enemy." We're also told that the judgment is for the benefit of the wicked themselves, which I think is a rather extraordinary statement that is seldom commented upon. It's usually thought of as being something done to them against their will, hardly something that could be described as for their own benefit.

Some other principles I think are clear are that the wicked suffer and die as a result of their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves.

I personally think of the judgment as sort of like a job interview. Each person will be meeting privately with God, who will go through the lives of each one in detail, in a calm, loving, humble, gentle way, just the way God always is. At the end of the interview, God asks the question, "Is this something you'd like to be a part of?" and it breaks His heart when the answer is "no."

Quote:

A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. (GC 543)

[Guest]

He won't be asking them "Is this something you'd like to be a part of?" It is forever too late at that point. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[pnattmbtc]

Richard, it is your thought that the wicked are set on fire? If this were the case, they'd just burn for a few seconds, wouldn't they? (it only takes a few seconds for someone to die if engulfed by fire) But the SOP says that the wicked will suffer some for many hours and some for many days. So this could hardly be a literal fire.

DA 764 also brings out that the fire isn't literal.

Quote:

God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire.

God's presence is to them a consuming fire. DA 107, 108 also brings this out. So does Isaiah 33:

Quote:

14The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

15He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

He won't be asking them "Is this something you'd like to be a part of?" It is forever too late at that point. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

You seem to be predisposed to taking things literally. I said I think of the judgment as "sort of like a job interview."

A point in what I wrote was to express the idea that the wicked's being excluded from heaven is not something God forces upon them, but something they choose themselves. GC 541-543 describes this, and says that God would make them happy if He could. But they want no part of heaven. They have unfit themselves for heaven. Heaven would be torture for them, so they choose to have no part of it. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves.

[Guest]

At that point they would choose heaven if they could. They are not given another chance as you seem to think. That simply is not Biblical.

[Guest]

And yes the fire is real.

[pnattmbtc]

At that point they would choose heaven if they could.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Richard

At that point they would choose heaven if they could.

No they wouldn't. "Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves." GC 543. This means they deliberately choose not to go to heaven.

Quote:

They are not given another chance as you seem to think.

Please read carefully! This is not what I think.

Quote:

That simply is not Biblical.

This is right. It's not Biblical. Our destinies are fixed by our choices in this lifetime. It is these choices which unfits the wicked for heaven. God would be happy to take the wicked to heaven (GC 542), but they have unfit themselves for heaven. Heaven would be torture to them. (GC 542). They choose to be excluded from heaven. (GC 543)

Quote:

And yes the fire is real.

Which fire? There's certainly literal fire involved. But the fire spoken of in DA 764, is certainly not literal. That is, this one:

Quote:

By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire.

The very next sentence says, "The glory of Him who is love will destroy them." So the wicked are not destroyed by literal fire (unless the glory of God is literal fire).

One more point. *If* it were true that the wicked would be set on fire, then you would be correct that the wicked would certainly choose to go to heaven rather than experience that. Anyone would do anything to avoid being set on fire for many days. But we're told that their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, so that rules out the possibility that they'll be set on fire for many days.

Interesting points.

[Guest]

The choice is not offered at the end of time. It is to late.

There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Luk 13:28

The great final test comes at the close of human probation, when it will be too late for the soul's need to be supplied. The ten virgins are watching in the evening of this earth's history. All claim to be Christians. All have a call, a name, a lamp, and all profess to be doing God's service. All apparently wait for Christ's appearing. But five are unready. Five will be found surprised, dismayed, outside the banquet hall. {COL 412}

Not until the day of final accounts will it be known how great is the responsibility of men in holy office and how terrible are the results of their unfaithfulness. ...Fearful will be the doom of him to whom God shall say: Depart, thou wicked servant. {DD 49.2}

"You had My Word, plainly setting forth your duty. Why have you not obeyed its teachings? Knew ye not that it was the voice of God? Did I not bid you search the Scriptures, that you might not go astray? You have not only ruined your own souls, but by your pretensions to godliness you have misled many others. You have no part with Me. Depart; depart." {CG 568.4}

[teresaq]

The choice is not offered at the end of time.

what choice?

who said anything about a choice?

the lost do not want heaven anymore than they want to hang out with the (truly) righteous here and now.

i know smokers who wont go to the mall because they cant smoke. imagine living forever and ever and ever without being able to smoke.

a person who loves to gossip would be miserable because everyone would just walk away from him/her.

a prideful person would have no one to look up to him/her. no one would be impressed with him/her.

those who live for entertainment would have none, forever and ever and ever.

no more tvs, movies, plays.

no more of anything that we have down here, which is not attractive to the unfallen.