Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Stephanus

Question : Is the story of Genesis 6 through 9 true or is it not? Does the flood fit the definition for DESTRUCTION?

Was there a flood? Yes....Did God do it? Depends....If you understand God's agape love, no, He is assuming the blame. If you believe God has human characteristics, yes, you'll think He did it....

As Tiny Tim used to sing: Tiptoe, through the tulips....

[oldsailor29]

Second chance? Not a chance per Scripture! Raise the wicked to save them? Would kindly show chapter and verse where such a notion is found?

I think that is what I would do if I was God. I mean, where there is love, there is always hope, isn't there?

[Gerr]

If God can turn mud into man, create order out of chaos and confusion (Hebrew meaning of words translated as "without form"), make something out of nothing, raise the dead, recreate himself as a baby born to a human, create clean, pure hearts in sinful people - why worry about what God does and how he fixes this sorry mess we find ourselves in?

God will make all things new again. (Rev 21:5) That is the ultimate and final make-over story.

Because the same author you quoted said, "...but fire came down from heaven and consumed them [the wicked]," Rev 20:9 ESV. That fire could only come from God because "...our God is a consuming fire," Heb 12:28 ESV.

Some are arguing that God doesn't do that. Now, if the Apostle John is not telling the truth about God putting an end to the wicked, how then can I depend on him telling the truth about God making "all things new again?"

[Gerr]

Sorry, but you are not God. The Bible is what reveals God to us. If that is what you believe God would do, I would like the "It is written" to back it up.

[oldsailor29]

Sorry, but you are not God. The Bible is what reveals God to us. If that is what you believe God would do, I would like the "It is written" to back it up.

Good point, but if the puny little bit of love in my heart would save my children, it seems to me that God's love will save His. And if I can think of a way to do it with my puny little brain, it seems to me that God could do that too. The Bible tells us that God loves His creation and wants to save it all. And if the Bible says anything at all, it says that God gets what He wants in His own loving way.

[Lutz13]

Quote:

No matter how we try to twist and turn away from this, God does destroy:

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Now Robert and Lutz will make the argument that this is somehow Satans work.

But I cannot understand how they can even begin to come to that conclusion on this text.

God destroys, this text is so plain as to make it absurd to deny it...

Mark :-)

"But he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse"(1 Chronicles 10:14)

This text is so plain as to make it absurd to deny that God killed Saul.

"I gave you a king in My anger, and took him away in My wrath."(Hosea 13:11)

This text is so plain as to make it absurd to deny that God killed Saul with His wrath.

"...Therefore Saul took a sword and fell on it."(1 Samuel 31:4)

This text is so plain as to make it absurd to deny that Saul fell on his sword....Wait a minute..........................

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Second chance? Not a chance per Scripture! Raise the wicked to save them? Would kindly show chapter and verse where such a notion is found?

Seriously, why raise them up if they are dead? Why bring them alive just to kill them again...You preach that God is love, explain this sick disgusting act. Let me guess...Justice...lol...Give me a break.

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Some are arguing that God doesn't do that. Now, if the Apostle John is not telling the truth about God putting an end to the wicked, how then can I depend on him telling the truth about God making "all things new again?"

The wicked are dead during the 1000 years! They are dead!!! DEAD!!! Why in the heck would you raise them back up, just to destroy them all over again?

[Lutz13]

Mark Twain:

“Our Bible reveals to us the character of our god with minute and remorseless exactness... It is perhaps the most damnatory biography that exists in print anywhere. It makes Nero an angel of light…by contrast.”

“To trust the God of the Bible is to trust an irascible, vindictive, fierce and ever fickle and changeful master…”

Richard Dawkins:

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal…pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

Hrmm...I wonder how they came to those conclusions...

Now if you could please explain something to me?

"You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning , and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it."(John 8:44) That text bugs me. You want to know why? Because we have our Creator calling Satan a murderer. Please, help me out! Set me straight. I want to figure this out, because it is really getting to me!

What murders are Jesus talking about? When I read the bible all I see is God and His "people" killing! Who is the murderer?! You know, I wish I were like you and could turn a blind eye to this because this puts a huge stumbling block before me. There is a wall I keep running into. It is bothering me! I pray to God daily, and talk with Him hourly about this, and I am still finding new evidence. Why?

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Good point, but if the puny little bit of love in my heart would save my children, it seems to me that God's love will save His. And if I can think of a way to do it with my puny little brain, it seems to me that God could do that too. The Bible tells us that God loves His creation and wants to save it all. And if the Bible says anything at all, it says that God gets what He wants in His own loving way.

I wish that were true. God doesn't force all into heaven. Just like Lucifer and his buddies left heaven because they couldn't stand the atmosphere. Some just wouldn't enjoy it. There was a point in my life where I couldn't stand being around good people. They annoyed me!. And besides, if that were true, I would be selfish and just off myself right now to get it all over with. If I were going to be saved anyways right?

I won't say you're wrong though, because you never know. I do sometimes wonder though. God being all knowing, and perfect. Whom nothing is impossible, if He did have a way to save all of creation. Wishful thinking though right?

[Lutz13]

Quote:

No matter how we try to twist and turn away from this, God does destroy:

Then let Him destroy me too. I would rather die than live with a liar and hypocrite.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

If God can turn mud into man, create order out of chaos and confusion (Hebrew meaning of words translated as "without form"), make something out of nothing, raise the dead, recreate himself as a baby born to a human, create clean, pure hearts in sinful people - why worry about what God does and how he fixes this sorry mess we find ourselves in?

God will make all things new again. (Rev 21:5) That is the ultimate and final make-over story.

I really like what you said. The problem is, is that I was taught to be afraid of God. That if I didn't follow His laws, I was doomed to die! The problem is, is that we have people actually preaching that God is going to burn everyone in hell unless they follow Him.

My problem with this theology is. God is love right? Since the wicked die at His second coming, why would He raise them back up again, just to fry them all... I know why I would do it:

"Yeah...see that suckers! Yeah..what's up now...bet you wish you would believed in me! Bet you're sorry now!!! Now get ready to fry!!! " A pride thing. Though I do not think God has this problem.

So, I will drop this once someone can explain to me, why on earth God needs to raise up the people He supposedly fried to death at Sodom and Gomorrah. Or all the people He drowned in the flood, just to kill them all over again.

Until you acknowledge that God is not only love but also just, NO ONE can explain it to you. Is justice revenge? Not so! I doubt that God will/would "fry" someone for the mere fact of someone choosing death rather than life. We feel sorry for someone who is tired of living and takes his own life. Does God feel less sympathetic than humans? But does it not bother you when someone, instead of taking their life, they snuff somebody else's life? Rapes little girls or boys and then kill them? Do not their blood, like Abel's, cry out to God for justice from the ground? Gen 4:10.

So why resurrect the wicked only to be killed again? Good question. And frankly, I have struggled with that too. Do I dismiss something just because I can't understand all its ramifications? I don't/can't understand how my speakers could reproduce the sound of a violin, piano, trumpet, or just about any musical instrument. Yet a violin can never produce the sound of a piano, or vice versa. But a speaker can! I can't/don't understand it, but I still enjoy my speakers!

Having struggled with the same question in the past, here are some of my thoughts on the matter.

1. Again, because God is also just. Study God's righteousness and justice.

2. When Satan and all the resurrected wicked surround the Holy City in Rev 20, they will see the inheritance of the saints that they could have had but spurned. How many people today pooh-pooh the existence of God, heaven, or hell? It makes sense to me for God to reveal Himself and to show there was a heaven to gain and a hell to shun.

3. Have you ever read of people who lost a loved one and the body or the killer never found? There is never a feeling of closure until either the body or the killer is found. When the 5th seal is opened in Rev 6:9-10, John saw the souls of the martyrs under the altar crying out for justice. The judgment of the wicked will provide closure/catharsis for them. They will understand that, as in the last stanza of James Lowell's poem, "Once to Every Man and Nation":

"Though the cause of evil prosper, yet the truth alone is strong;

Though her portion be the scaffold, and upon the throne be wrong;

Yet that scaffold sways the future, and behind the dim unknown,

Standeth God within the shadow, keeping watch above His own."

[Gerr]

Quote:

Second chance? Not a chance per Scripture! Raise the wicked to save them? Would kindly show chapter and verse where such a notion is found?

Seriously, why raise them up if they are dead? Why bring them alive just to kill them again...You preach that God is love, explain this sick disgusting act. Let me guess...Justice...lol...Give me a break.

Laugh all you want. But the same Bible that tells you that God is love also tells me He is a just God. I've said it before, I'll say it again: Love/mercy without justice is anarchy. Justice without love/mercy is tyranny!

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Laugh all you want. But the same Bible that tells you that God is love also tells me He is a just God.

Just leave them dead. What do they care at that point? Sounds like a pride thing to bring them back up just to say "See, look what you miss out on, see ya" *BOOM*

[Gerr]

Quote:

Some are arguing that God doesn't do that. Now, if the Apostle John is not telling the truth about God putting an end to the wicked, how then can I depend on him telling the truth about God making "all things new again?"

The wicked are dead during the 1000 years! They are dead!!! DEAD!!! Why in the heck would you raise them back up, just to destroy them all over again?

See my thoughts on the subject in answer to your other post.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Sorry, but you are not God. The Bible is what reveals God to us. If that is what you believe God would do, I would like the "It is written" to back it up.

Good point, but if the puny little bit of love in my heart would save my children, it seems to me that God's love will save His. And if I can think of a way to do it with my puny little brain, it seems to me that God could do that too. The Bible tells us that God loves His creation and wants to save it all. And if the Bible says anything at all, it says that God gets what He wants in His own loving way.

God is "not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." 2 Pe 3:9 ESV. The Bible tells us that Lucifer decided to wage war against God. And apparently he is hell-bent in doing so. What is God supposed to do when the creature says, "NO?" One thing God will never do: force anyone into heaven.

[Gerr]

Quote:

No matter how we try to twist and turn away from this, God does destroy:

Then let Him destroy me too. I would rather die than live with a liar and hypocrite.

A liar and a hypocrite for being holy and just? Yeah, give me a break!

[Gerr]

Quote:

No matter how we try to twist and turn away from this, God does destroy:

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Now Robert and Lutz will make the argument that this is somehow Satans work.

But I cannot understand how they can even begin to come to that conclusion on this text.

God destroys, this text is so plain as to make it absurd to deny it...

Mark :-)

"But he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse"(1 Chronicles 10:14)

This text is so plain as to make it absurd to deny that God killed Saul.

"I gave you a king in My anger, and took him away in My wrath."(Hosea 13:11)

This text is so plain as to make it absurd to deny that God killed Saul with His wrath.

"...Therefore Saul took a sword and fell on it."(1 Samuel 31:4)

This text is so plain as to make it absurd to deny that Saul fell on his sword....Wait a minute..........................

Since the same Spirit inspired the record, one cannot be a lie and the other the truth! If both propositions are mutually exclusive, which then are you going to accept as truth? The one that agrees with your preconceived notion, right? What if the other proposition is the correct one? Or have you thought of the possibility that in fact both of the above information were not mutually exclusive but both sides of the same coin of truth?

[Ted Oplinger]

Rolling in here...

Never was taught to fear God as an exacting Rule-Maker with vengeance in hand for those not quite up to snuff. I do realize that many Adventists DID undergo such a thing...pity. I just don't look at the IJ in such a way.

We can speculate all we want, but the truth will come out, I believe, at the Great White Throne (GWT). It is my opinion that is THE final "safety net" for any who would REALLY want to be saved.

Yes, I know it's all divided up right nicely at Christ's 2nd coming. Christ doesn't make mistakes. But the GWT isn't there for God's knowledge. I believe it's there as God's closing argument to all sentients of Creation - angelic, heavenly, and human - the final demonstration as to why sin must be destroyed - and why those who identify with sin must necessarily be destroyed with sin.

It is my understanding that Christ, being our second Adam, covered the entire breadth of humanity with His life, sacrifice, and resurrection.

That fact remains in force, regardless if one wants to accept it or not. The wicked just don't want to accept any of it, yet it doesn't negate the facts and scope of Christ and His work. And Christ honors the wicked's decision...no one will be dragged kicking and screaming into heaven.

At the GWT, everything will made apparent. They will see that heaven's no myth - but they want inside only for their own selfish appetites and lusts. They will see that God is no delusion - and yet still despise Him, rejecting His sovereignty. They will see every point where they turned from the right, where they beat back God's love and mercy - and be utterly unphased by it...remorseless in looking upon Him who took their sins upon Himself, even while the Redeemed are crying, "He died for me!"...

They will see that everything God had warned them about sin and death is true. They will bow down and confess that Christ alone is worthy, and that all the laws and judgments of God are righteous and true.

IF there were those among that who truly wanted life, who were truly deceived, desired to give their lives to Christ and be rid of the sin which is just about to bring them complete and eternal destruction...would not a few hands go up? Would not a few be written in the Scriptures as being spared out of destruction, but the rest destroyed by the fire coming down from heaven? Yet not a single exception is noted...ALL that surround the New Jerusalem rise up and declare war on God, desiring to take the New Jerusalem by force and rip God off His thone.

Only then will everyone understand what God has known from the beginning: why sin, and those who identify with it, must be destroyed.

Sin cannot co-exist with Life.

Then it comes down to some decisions...

What does Divine Love do for all Creation, and those who love God?

What does Divine Love do for those determined to separate from the Source of all Life, yet think if they can but just reach that Tree of Life, they can steal the capacity of self-existent Life from God, and live forever in a kingdom of Sin, outside of God's sovereignty?

When Divine Love honors the wicked's final decision to separate completely from sinners, taking the borrowed life force with Him, I do believe that will be a strange act for God - who is normally imparting life. Yet, to separate from the wicked, He must withdraw all of His presence from them...which would leave them lifeless.

Those who fight that process will endure great agony - very similar to what Christ suffered on the cross. While He did so for the sins of the all mankind, the wicked suffer individually.

It would be my OPINION that the fire comes down from heaven as an act of Divine Mercy, cutting the agony short. That same fire would purge Creation of sin, and from the ashes, our Creator would again...create out of the ashes of what once was evil, a new Heaven and a new Earth.

All just my humble opinion...Love and Mercy are seen, not Vengeance and Hatred...

Rolling on...

[Gerr]

Mark Twain:

“Our Bible reveals to us the character of our god with minute and remorseless exactness... It is perhaps the most damnatory biography that exists in print anywhere. It makes Nero an angel of light…by contrast.”

“To trust the God of the Bible is to trust an irascible, vindictive, fierce and ever fickle and changeful master…”

Richard Dawkins:

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal…pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

Hrmm...I wonder how they came to those conclusions...

I wonder how much these people really knew about the Bible? There are many so-called preachers today who don't even know the 10 commandments!

Quote:

Now if you could please explain something to me?

"You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning , and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it."(John 8:44) That text bugs me. You want to know why? Because we have our Creator calling Satan a murderer. Please, help me out! Set me straight. I want to figure this out, because it is really getting to me!

What murders are Jesus talking about? When I read the bible all I see is God and His "people" killing! Who is the murderer?! You know, I wish I were like you and could turn a blind eye to this because this puts a huge stumbling block before me. There is a wall I keep running into. It is bothering me! I pray to God daily, and talk with Him hourly about this, and I am still finding new evidence. Why?

"You have heard that it was said to those of ancient times, 'You shall not murder'; and 'whoever murders shall be liable to judgment.

But I say to you that if you are angry with a brother or sister, you will be liable to judgment; and if you insult a brother or sister, you will be liable to the council; and if you say, ‘You fool,’ you will be liable to the hell of fire." Mt 5:21.22 NRSV.

What is Jesus saying here? Is not anger [Gk orge - anger especially oriented to revenge & punishment] murder in the heart? What does the Bible say about Satan's hatred and anger?

"His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it." Rev 12:4 ESV.

"Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus." Rev 12:17

Was it not Satan that was behind all the murders of the innocent saints? Was it not Satan who was the moving force in the crucifixion of Christ? So who do you believe? Dawkins who has Satan murdering 10 and God in the millions? or Jesus declaring who Satan really is? You listen to the arguments of the atheists, my friend, and you are treading on slippery ground.

[Stewart (SDA)]

Just a quick thought here:

The parable of the Prodigal son is often used to illustrate the love of God for His rebellious children.

In Jesus' parable, the younger son eventually does come "to himself", and he returns to his Father...

But of course in reality there are many prodigals that never come back.

For these people, the common view of God effectively adds an 'addenda' to the parable.

Namely, "my son, if you do not return, then I will eventually bring you back to Me (resurrect you from the dead), and I will kill you".

And, because the son knew God well, and left Him, he will be among those whose death will take "many days" in the lake of fire. ALL the prodigals that do not return will die a horrendous death. They are judged, and condemned, according to the amount of light they have had.

And this, from a God who loved His runaway sons with "an everlasting Love"?

Stewart.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Here are 4 problems:

1'] Your human nature

2] Your preconceived ideas

3] tradition

4] your desires to place human attributes onto God.

Summary?

You've got problems teehe

I believe what the Book says. I don't use fancy theological footwork to explain away what I don't like and then create more problems.

The above problems are YOUR problems!

You have a superficial understanding based on tradition.....You need to examine not only your favorite verses, but those that contradict them. Instead you go into ignore mode.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Was there a flood? Yes....Did God do it? Depends....If you understand God's agape love' date=' no, He is assuming the blame. If you believe God has human characteristics, yes, you'll think He did it.... [/quote']

As Tiny Tim used to sing: Tiptoe, through the tulips....

You funny man....

NOT!

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Now Robert and Lutz will make the argument that this is somehow Satans work.

More lies...

Lies?

You have stated that all actions of destruction are satans and not Gods over and over.

So how is this a lie?

If I have misunderstood you then I apologise, but if I tell the truth, why do you call me a liar?

Please specify your point without the accusation, I do not appreciate it when you insinuate that I am a liar.

Mark

[Twilight]

Quote:

No matter how we try to twist and turn away from this, God does destroy:

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Now Robert and Lutz will make the argument that this is somehow Satans work.

But I cannot understand how they can even begin to come to that conclusion on this text.

God destroys, this text is so plain as to make it absurd to deny it...

Mark :-)

"But he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse"(1 Chronicles 10:14)

This text is so plain as to make it absurd to deny that God killed Saul.

"I gave you a king in My anger, and took him away in My wrath."(Hosea 13:11)

This text is so plain as to make it absurd to deny that God killed Saul with His wrath.

"...Therefore Saul took a sword and fell on it."(1 Samuel 31:4)

This text is so plain as to make it absurd to deny that Saul fell on his sword....Wait a minute..........................

Brother :-)

You have not dealt with the text at all?

Do you have a rational explanation of how this text fits in with your theology?

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

My bible tells me that The Lord destroys the wicked with the brightness of His coming.

Very specific.

Your argument against this, is that God takes responsibility for what He permits and that it is actually Satan doing the dirty work.

Now, how then does Satan (using the logic that you have supplied), destroy everyone with the brightness of Jesus' Coming, unless the text is lying and it is really Satan that comes?

Explain the text my friend, do not try to run around it.

Remember, you are evangelising this truth on here, if you were just sharing your own view of the truth, I would just leave it at that, but because you are trying to teach others that this is the "truth" or "present truth", then we have to see if you can deal with this text.

You and Robert cannot and have not, other than to show where God has taken responsibility for Satans actions in the past, but this text does not fit into that type of explanation.

So I can only come to the conclusion it is because you have imbibed error that does not stand up when examined against the bible.

That you want a God that does not destroy and will do anything to assign that character to God, no matter what the scripture says in opposition to it.

When this is the motive, our own desire, our own understanding of love, we are always going to end up with very poor arguments.

Mark