Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

I really like what you said. The problem is, is that I was taught to be afraid of God. That if I didn't follow His laws, I was doomed to die! The problem is, is that we have people actually preaching that God is going to burn everyone in hell unless they follow Him.

My problem with this theology is. God is love right? Since the wicked die at His second coming, why would He raise them back up again, just to fry them all... I know why I would do it:

"Yeah...see that suckers! Yeah..what's up now...bet you wish you would believed in me! Bet you're sorry now!!! Now get ready to fry!!! " A pride thing. Though I do not think God has this problem.

So, I will drop this once someone can explain to me, why on earth God needs to raise up the people He supposedly fried to death at Sodom and Gomorrah. Or all the people He drowned in the flood, just to kill them all over again. [/quote']

Until you acknowledge that God is not only love but also just, NO ONE can explain it to you. Is justice revenge? Not so! I doubt that God will/would "fry" someone for the mere fact of someone choosing death rather than life. We feel sorry for someone who is tired of living and takes his own life. Does God feel less sympathetic than humans? But does it not bother you when someone, instead of taking their life, they snuff somebody else's life? Rapes little girls or boys and then kill them? Do not their blood, like Abel's, cry out to God for justice from the ground? Gen 4:10.

So why resurrect the wicked only to be killed again? Good question. And frankly, I have struggled with that too. Do I dismiss something just because I can't understand all its ramifications? I don't/can't understand how my speakers could reproduce the sound of a violin, piano, trumpet, or just about any musical instrument. Yet a violin can never produce the sound of a piano, or vice versa. But a speaker can! I can't/don't understand it, but I still enjoy my speakers!

Having struggled with the same question in the past, here are some of my thoughts on the matter.

1. Again, because God is also just. Study God's righteousness and justice.

2. When Satan and all the resurrected wicked surround the Holy City in Rev 20, they will see the inheritance of the saints that they could have had but spurned. How many people today pooh-pooh the existence of God, heaven, or hell? It makes sense to me for God to reveal Himself and to show there was a heaven to gain and a hell to shun.

3. Have you ever read of people who lost a loved one and the body or the killer never found? There is never a feeling of closure until either the body or the killer is found. When the 5th seal is opened in Rev 6:9-10, John saw the souls of the martyrs under the altar crying out for justice. The judgment of the wicked will provide closure/catharsis for them. They will understand that, as in the last stanza of James Lowell's poem, "Once to Every Man and Nation":

"Though the cause of evil prosper, yet the truth alone is strong;

Though her portion be the scaffold, and upon the throne be wrong;

Yet that scaffold sways the future, and behind the dim unknown,

Standeth God within the shadow, keeping watch above His own."

I think it is also important to consider this simple thought:

Those that would argue that the wicked were not given a second chance, that they did not know, will see the complete evil of the wicked.

They WILL once again attack God, no matter how much God shows them about Himself, when they are resurrected.

This second resurrection allows for the full and final revelation of the character of the wicked, when everything has been stripped away, the universe will see with finality mans nature without Christ.

Then there will be nothing left to accuse God with.

It will be seen that the destruction of the wicked is indeed an act of love.

That love has to destroy sin.

It is satans argument that God cannot destroy and be loving, that is one of his "protections".

This objection has to be displayed in its true light before the destruction can be carried out.

This is my understanding and the only way that I can make scriptue balance.

So when people try to deny these simple texts, as well meaning as they are, they are promoting a lie of the devil by taking a simple truth that God allows us the consequence of our actions too far.

Allowing the consequence of our actions, should not blend into the lie that God does not destroy the wicked.

It is a clever deception, but it relies on the assumption that God will not destroy and on the lie that it is an evil act for God to destroy.

Mark

[Twilight]

Rolling in here...

Never was taught to fear God as an exacting Rule-Maker with vengeance in hand for those not quite up to snuff. I do realize that many Adventists DID undergo such a thing...pity. I just don't look at the IJ in such a way.

We can speculate all we want, but the truth will come out, I believe, at the Great White Throne (GWT). It is my opinion that is THE final "safety net" for any who would REALLY want to be saved.

Yes, I know it's all divided up right nicely at Christ's 2nd coming. Christ doesn't make mistakes. But the GWT isn't there for God's knowledge. I believe it's there as God's closing argument to all sentients of Creation - angelic, heavenly, and human - the final demonstration as to why sin must be destroyed - and why those who identify with sin must necessarily be destroyed with sin.

It is my understanding that Christ, being our second Adam, covered the entire breadth of humanity with His life, sacrifice, and resurrection.

That fact remains in force, regardless if one wants to accept it or not. The wicked just don't want to accept any of it, yet it doesn't negate the facts and scope of Christ and His work. And Christ honors the wicked's decision...no one will be dragged kicking and screaming into heaven.

At the GWT, everything will made apparent. They will see that heaven's no myth - but they want inside only for their own selfish appetites and lusts. They will see that God is no delusion - and yet still despise Him, rejecting His sovereignty. They will see every point where they turned from the right, where they beat back God's love and mercy - and be utterly unphased by it...remorseless in looking upon Him who took their sins upon Himself, even while the Redeemed are crying, "He died for me!"...

They will see that everything God had warned them about sin and death is true. They will bow down and confess that Christ alone is worthy, and that all the laws and judgments of God are righteous and true.

IF there were those among that who truly wanted life, who were truly deceived, desired to give their lives to Christ and be rid of the sin which is just about to bring them complete and eternal destruction...would not a few hands go up? Would not a few be written in the Scriptures as being spared out of destruction, but the rest destroyed by the fire coming down from heaven? Yet not a single exception is noted...ALL that surround the New Jerusalem rise up and declare war on God, desiring to take the New Jerusalem by force and rip God off His thone.

Only then will everyone understand what God has known from the beginning: why sin, and those who identify with it, must be destroyed.

Sin cannot co-exist with Life.

Then it comes down to some decisions...

What does Divine Love do for all Creation, and those who love God?

What does Divine Love do for those determined to separate from the Source of all Life, yet think if they can but just reach that Tree of Life, they can steal the capacity of self-existent Life from God, and live forever in a kingdom of Sin, outside of God's sovereignty?

When Divine Love honors the wicked's final decision to separate completely from sinners, taking the borrowed life force with Him, I do believe that will be a strange act for God - who is normally imparting life. Yet, to separate from the wicked, He must withdraw all of His presence from them...which would leave them lifeless.

Those who fight that process will endure great agony - very similar to what Christ suffered on the cross. While He did so for the sins of the all mankind, the wicked suffer individually.

It would be my OPINION that the fire comes down from heaven as an act of Divine Mercy, cutting the agony short. That same fire would purge Creation of sin, and from the ashes, our Creator would again...create out of the ashes of what once was evil, a new Heaven and a new Earth.

All just my humble opinion...Love and Mercy are seen, not Vengeance and Hatred...

Rolling on...

Thank you Ted, I enjoyed your thoughts. :-)

Mark

[Twilight]

Just a quick thought here:

The parable of the Prodigal son is often used to illustrate the love of God for His rebellious children.

In Jesus' parable, the younger son eventually does come "to himself", and he returns to his Father...

But of course in reality there are many prodigals that never come back.

For these people, the common view of God effectively adds an 'addenda' to the parable.

Namely, "my son, if you do not return, then I will eventually bring you back to Me (resurrect you from the dead), and I will kill you".

And, because the son knew God well, and left Him, he will be among those whose death will take "many days" in the lake of fire. ALL the prodigals that do not return will die a horrendous death. They are judged, and condemned, according to the amount of light they have had.

And this, from a God who loved His runaway sons with "an everlasting Love"?

Stewart.

How about:

God knows that He is going to have to destroy sin and pleads with all, that they may avoid this destruction.

When they accept that pleading, He rejoices lovingly...

The parable deals with the son returning, not those that do not, so any commentary on that aspect would only be conjecture in my view Stewart. :-)

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

I believe what the Book says. I don't use fancy theological footwork to explain away what I don't like and then create more problems.

The above problems are YOUR problems!

You have a superficial understanding based on tradition.....You need to examine not only your favorite verses, but those that contradict them. Instead you go into ignore mode.

Ignore mode:

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

This seems to be a good example of ignore mode.

You still have not dealt with this text Robert.

God bless,

Mark :-)

[Gerr]

Just a quick thought here:

The parable of the Prodigal son is often used to illustrate the love of God for His rebellious children.

In Jesus' parable, the younger son eventually does come "to himself", and he returns to his Father...

But of course in reality there are many prodigals that never come back.

For these people, the common view of God effectively adds an 'addenda' to the parable.

Namely, "my son, if you do not return, then I will eventually bring you back to Me (resurrect you from the dead), and I will kill you".

And, because the son knew God well, and left Him, he will be among those whose death will take "many days" in the lake of fire. ALL the prodigals that do not return will die a horrendous death. They are judged, and condemned, according to the amount of light they have had.

And this, from a God who loved His runaway sons with "an everlasting Love"?

I don't believe a loving God will punish people for merely choosing to side with Satan. Do I kill my son for rejecting my advice? or disowning me as his father? NO! My heart yearns for him! God can't do less! But as I said in another post, we feel sorry, and our hearts go out to people who find life such a burden that they kill themselves. To kill one's self is one thing; it is quite another to go around snuffing other lives, raping little girls or boys and then kill them! That cries out for justice! We will suffer judgment not so much for what we done to ourselves but what we have done to others. If you think justice is revenge, then there is nothing I can say to help you.

[Gerr]

Thanks for the additional insight.

[Twilight]

Thanks for the additional insight.

You are welcome, most of that is gleaned from SOP, but please check it out for yourself as it is all from memory and may need some "tweaking".

God bless,

Mark

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Robert

More lies...

Lies?

You have stated that all actions of destruction are satans and not Gods over and over.

So how is this a lie?

If I have misunderstood you then I apologise' date=' but if I tell the truth, why do you call me a liar?

Please specify your point without the accusation, I do not appreciate it when you insinuate that I am a liar.

Mark [/quote']

When Robert can't answer your argument, he'll either call it or you a liar, self-righteous, Pharisee, legalist, confused, or have little or no understanding, or have an unspiritual mind.

And he just added another. "you have a superficial understanding that is based on tradition."

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Lies?

You have stated that all actions of destruction are satans and not Gods over and over.

So how is this a lie?

If I have misunderstood you then I apologise' date=' but if I tell the truth, why do you call me a liar?

Please specify your point without the accusation, I do not appreciate it when you insinuate that I am a liar.

Mark [/quote']

When Robert can't answer your argument, he'll either call it or you a liar, self-righteous, Pharisee, legalist, confused, or have little or no understanding, or have an unspiritual mind.

And he just added another. "you have a superficial understanding that is based on tradition."

That would seem to be a correct assessment of the situation sadly.

It deeply saddens me and also troubles me.

When we claim great knowledge about "agape" love, should our posts have these types of accusations and attacks in?

I do not think so, with my own experience of head and heart knowledge (lack of heart knowledge in my own experience that the Lord is dealing with), I can only assume when people behave like this it is the same issue, head filled with ideas but heart devoid of Gods love.

:-(

Mark

[Lutz13]

Quote:

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

We have gone over this countless times. But what is one more circle....

"and the remnant were slain with the sword of Him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of His mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."(Revelation 19:21) "For the word of God is quick, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."(Hebrews 4:12)

Notice, the wicked are slain by this sword. Known as His word, also known as truth. Why does the truth kill them? What do they do when Jesus comes? They ask for the rocks to fall on them. Why? "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed."(John 3:20) They destroy themselves. So, I guess it is a matter of perspective. Because of their deeds, they cannot stand before Jesus and would rather die. So they are destroyed by the brightness of His coming! Does He kill them? No! It is their fault, they go crazy and kill themselves. However, if you want to say it is Jesus who does it, then by all means, go ahead. Cause and affect I guess...Still their fault.

[Lutz13]

Since the same Spirit inspired the record, one cannot be a lie and the other the truth! If both propositions are mutually exclusive, which then are you going to accept as truth? The one that agrees with your preconceived notion, right? What if the other proposition is the correct one? Or have you thought of the possibility that in fact both of the above information were not mutually exclusive but both sides of the same coin of truth?

It is clear to me what happened to Saul. Saul forsook God, so God left Saul to himself. Which is what Paul says the wrath of God is.

[Twilight]

Quote:

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

We have gone over this countless times. But what is one more circle....

"and the remnant were slain with the sword of Him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of His mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."(Revelation 19:21) "For the word of God is quick, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."(Hebrews 4:12)

Notice, the wicked are slain by this sword. Known as His word, also known as truth. Why does the truth kill them? What do they do when Jesus comes? They ask for the rocks to fall on them. Why? "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed."(John 3:20) They destroy themselves. So, I guess it is a matter of perspective. Because of their deeds, they cannot stand before Jesus and would rather die. So they are destroyed by the brightness of His coming! Does He kill them? No! It is their fault, they go crazy and kill themselves. However, if you want to say it is Jesus who does it, then by all means, go ahead. Cause and affect I guess...Still their fault.

Two points:

1. It does not say:

whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming because the wicked will be so scared they will commit suicide in droves.

It says:

whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming

2. We would be claiming that Paul was less inspired than yourself and Robert, to accept your interpretation here.

Does that not concern you? That you are claiming to have greater light than Moses and Paul?

That you have a greater understanding of the things they saw, than they did themselves?

God bless,

Mark

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

More lies...

Lies?

You have stated that all actions of destruction are satans and not Gods over and over.

Directly and indirectly.

[Robert]

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Mark :-)

Again, God is assuming the blame....

[Robert]

To kill one's self is one thing; it is quite another to go around snuffing other lives, raping little girls or boys and then kill them! That cries out for justice!

Ah, but forgiven rapist will be in heaven, minus the nature....

Now, what is justice? How does God deal with sin. Answer: See the cross....

God didn't put Jesus on that tree, but He did say, "I will strike the Shepard." Did He? No, but He did abandon Christ to the surrounding destruction (in this case agents of Satan). To be just God would have to do the unbeliever the same because God is the same yesterday, ....

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Since the same Spirit inspired the record, one cannot be a lie and the other the truth! If both propositions are mutually exclusive, which then are you going to accept as truth? The one that agrees with your preconceived notion, right? What if the other proposition is the correct one? Or have you thought of the possibility that in fact both of the above information were not mutually exclusive but both sides of the same coin of truth?

It is clear to me what happened to Saul. Saul forsook God, so God left Saul to himself. Which is what Paul says the wrath of God is.

It is also clear to me what happened in Gen 6-9 & Rev 20.

[Gerr]

In case you haven't already found out, Robert talks a good game. He talks about agape a lot, but do you feel it?

He wants you to sell your home and everything you have to be like Christ, but ask him how much he gives to his fellow man

and to God.

[Twilight]

Then Robert, how do you explain that Jesus will destroy the wicked with the brightness of His coming?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Mark :-)

Again, God is assuming the blame....

It does not say that.

It says very specifically that He will destroy them with the brightness of His coming.

For you to apply this to Satan then you not only have to attribute the destruction to Satan but the Lords coming to Satan, as they are linked completely in this text.

Lord = Comes = Destroys

That is the logical sequence and nothing in the text even allows for your interpretation.

God bless,

Mark

[LifeHiscost]

And if the Bible says anything at all, it says that God gets what He wants in His own loving way.

In one respect you're right, oldsailor29. Since our Father is Sovereign and Creator, it would seem that nothing that He created and loved, would ever be beyond the pale of His ability to give them all a generous portion of satisfaction for the future, which would last for eternity.

The problem lies in the reality that He wants all of those He created in His image, to be able to love as He loves. That means to think for themselves and return love of their own free will, without coercion.

Thus comes into the universe's experience something God Himself has difficulty explaining to those He has created. So difficult that, in our limited fallen condition, we have almost no hope of ever being able to explain it, unless we give undivided trust as a result of following His guidance.

"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work..." 2 Thessalonians 2:7 KJV

That above, is probably the greatest reason why Jesus (God) asks us to trust (believe) Him when He speaks or acts, whether or not we can fit Him into our minute measure of understanding.

After all, if the mind of man decides in the face of misunderstanding(disbelief) to formulate plans that fit their own comfort zone, even though God already gave the best solution, if God were to rewire the individual the way He already knew was best, would that give the created, free will, or just make them a robot? And can a robot truly love? Or even return love given them?

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Hebrews 11:6 KJV

"But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Matthew 4:4 KJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

My problem with this theology is. God is love right? Since the wicked die at His second coming, why would He raise them back up again, just to fry them all... I know why I would do it:

"Yeah...see that suckers! Yeah..what's up now...bet you wish you would believed in me! Bet you're sorry now!!! Now get ready to fry!!! " A pride thing. Though I do not think God has this problem.

So, I will drop this once someone can explain to me, why on earth God needs to raise up the people He supposedly fried to death at Sodom and Gomorrah. Or all the people He drowned in the flood, just to kill them all over again.

"

At the time of death, it is probably true, that most people who have developed any ideas at all about life, believe they are being treated totally unfair, unless they have found the love of Christ to be their salvation. For whatever reasons they are resurrected, one will be to let them, and all the universe, understand the Father was totally just and loving in all of His decisions.

"For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."Romans 14:11 KJV

"...whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith." Romans 3:25-27

NKJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Please specify your point without the accusation, I do not appreciate it when you insinuate that I am a liar.

Mark

Most on this thread do not recognize the gospel according to Robert, Twilight. The emoticons he chooses to use, pretty much define where his thoughts come from.

"It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?"Matthew 10:25 KJV

Blessings!

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Please specify your point without the accusation, I do not appreciate it when you insinuate that I am a liar.

Mark

Most on this thread do not recognize the gospel according to Robert, Twilight. The emoticons he chooses to use, pretty much define where his thoughts come from.

"It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?"Matthew 10:25 KJV

Blessings!

It would not be so bad, if it were not so insistent...

When self is the centre of our theology, we will condemn and belittle all that disagree.

We will even claim that it is their self that is at fault, never admitting fault with our own self.

The man who cannot admit that he is ever wrong, is never right.

God bless,

Mark

[Lutz13]

Quote:

It does not say that.

It says very specifically that He will destroy them with the brightness of His coming.

For you to apply this to Satan then you not only have to attribute the destruction to Satan but the Lords coming to Satan, as they are linked completely in this text.

Lord = Comes = Destroys

That is the logical sequence and nothing in the text even allows for your interpretation.

God bless,

Mark

Cause and affect. It is McDonalds fault people get fat? No, it's the person who eats there. It it Jesus' fault that people freak out when He comes and kill each other?

They pretty much already are killing each other before that point. Picture 70AD on a global scale.

[Lutz13]

At any rate, my mind is set, your mind is set. So it is pointless to continue. We will see when the day comes. Like Tom said earlier:

If God can turn mud into man, create order out of chaos and confusion (Hebrew meaning of words translated as "without form"), make something out of nothing, raise the dead, recreate himself as a baby born to a human, create clean, pure hearts in sinful people - why worry about what God does and how he fixes this sorry mess we find ourselves in?

God will make all things new again. (Rev 21:5) That is the ultimate and final make-over story.

God is God, and I'm sure He will deal with it in His way. Though we perceive it differently, I need to stop.