Twilight Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Quote: It does not say that. It says very specifically that He will destroy them with the brightness of His coming. For you to apply this to Satan then you not only have to attribute the destruction to Satan but the Lords coming to Satan, as they are linked completely in this text. Lord = Comes = Destroys That is the logical sequence and nothing in the text even allows for your interpretation. God bless, Mark Cause and affect. It is McDonalds fault people get fat? No, it's the person who eats there. It it Jesus' fault that people freak out when He comes and kill each other? They pretty much already are killing each other before that point. Picture 70AD on a global scale. I am not convinced Lutz, this mass suicide idea is supplying detail that has to be extrapolated from elsewhere, with no direct link other than a "principle" that can be stretched too far. Mark :-) Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 At any rate, my mind is set, your mind is set. So it is pointless to continue. We will see when the day comes. Like Tom said earlier: Originally Posted By: Tom If God can turn mud into man, create order out of chaos and confusion (Hebrew meaning of words translated as "without form"), make something out of nothing, raise the dead, recreate himself as a baby born to a human, create clean, pure hearts in sinful people - why worry about what God does and how he fixes this sorry mess we find ourselves in? God will make all things new again. (Rev 21:5) That is the ultimate and final make-over story. God is God, and I'm sure He will deal with it in His way. Though we perceive it differently, I need to stop. That is sensible Lutz, you have laid your position out, we have laid ours out. :-) Mark Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted June 11, 2009 Author Share Posted June 11, 2009 The man who cannot admit that he is ever wrong, is never right. God bless, Mark Blessings! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WilloMar Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 Let’s study 2 Thess. 2:8: “And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit (His breath, His Word) of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming.” Now let’s study what Ellen White says about this verse: “But in that day, as in the time of Jerusalem’s destruction, God’s people will be delivered... Christ has declared that He will come the second time, to gather His faithful ones to Himself: ‘Then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of God coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great 1glory. And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.’ Matt. 24:30, 31. Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of His mouth (His Word), and be destroyed with the brightness of His coming (2 Thess. 2:8). Like Israel of old, the wicked destroy themselves; they fall by their iniquity. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of His glory/character is to them a consuming fire.” (GC 37) 1 Glory is the same as Character: AA 576, DA 341 and SD 337. 2 “At the coming of Christ the wicked are blotted from the face of the whole earth, -- consumed with the spirit of His mouth (His Word), and destroyed by the brightness of His Glory (His coming, 2 Thess. 2:8).” (GC 657) “The natural heart is at enmity against God, and will resist the clearest evidence of truth. The wicked will not endure the light that condemns their wrong course of action.” (5T 341) “Christ must die, as every transgressor of the law must die if he continues in sin.” (DA 799) Did fire come down from God and consumed Him? God forbid, for He died by the hands of sinners. Prepare for the coming of Jesus!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WilloMar Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 “And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming (2 Thess. 2:8).” This is a favorite verse of Seventh-day Adventists. It’s a description of the Lord’s destruction of the wicked when He comes for His people. Let’s reason a little here: “Consume with the spirit of His mouth.” Is that actual fire coming out of His mouth, like a dragon? Or does it simply mean His Word: “He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the Word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day (John 12:48).” That’s clear, isn’t it? What about the second half of that verse, “and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming?” Concerning that verse, Ellen White wrote: “At the coming of Christ the wicked are blotted from the face of the whole earth, ---- consumed with the spirit of His mouth (His Word), and destroyed by the brightness of His Glory (GC 657).” She changed the last word of 2 Thess. 2:8 from “coming,” to “glory.” Now, what is God’s Glory? “Through trial and persecution the glory ---- the character ---- of God is revealed in His chosen ones (AA 576).” And, “He has called us ‘to the obtaining of the glory’ ---- character ---- ‘of our Lord Jesus Christ;’ has called us to be ‘conformed to the image of His Son.’ 2 Thess. 2:14; Rom. 8:29 (DA 341).” And again, “By beholding Christ, by talking of Him, by beholding the loveliness of His character we become changed. Changed from glory to glory. And what is glory? Character, ---- and he becomes changed from character to character. Thus we see that there is a work of purification that goes on by beholding Jesus (SD 337).” Now, what destroys the wicked? “Like Israel of old, the wicked destroy themselves; they fall by their iniquity. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of His glory (His Coming, His Character) is to them a consuming fire (GC 37).” Again, “The natural heart is at enmity against God, and will resist the clearest evidence of truth. The wicked will not endure the light that condemns their wrong course of action (5T 341).” If you want to see how the wicked will die, look to Jesus: “Christ must die, as every transgressor of the law must die if he continues in sin (DA 799).” Did fire come down from God and consume Him? Absolutely Not, He died by the hands of sinners. Prepare for the coming of Jesus!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 13, 2009 Moderators Share Posted June 13, 2009 Quote: Cause and affect. It is McDonalds fault people get fat? No, it's the person who eats there. It it Jesus' fault that people freak out when He comes and kill each other? They pretty much already are killing each other before that point. Picture 70AD on a global scale. Can't you see the SHARED cause and effect? McDonalds SERVES the food, and the people EAT it? And in the end, ala 70 AD, will the wicked light a torch on each other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutz13 Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Quote: Can't you see the SHARED cause and effect? McDonalds SERVES the food, and the people EAT it? And in the end, ala 70 AD, will the wicked light a torch on each other? They wouldn't get fat if they didn't go into McDonalds. God would be fine to look at if they knew Him. Yes Gerry, I believe in the end the wicked will torch the wicked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 14, 2009 Moderators Share Posted June 14, 2009 Quote: Yes Gerry, I believe in the end the wicked will torch the wicked. Let's see. The prophets of Baal did not have the ability to torch their sacrifice on Mt. Carmel, but they'll have the ability to torch each other? And Satan will zap his own army? and then zap himself? Like Saul falling on his sword? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 14, 2009 Moderators Share Posted June 14, 2009 Quote: If you want to see how the wicked will die, look to Jesus: “Christ must die, as every transgressor of the law must die if he continues in sin (DA 799).” Did fire come down from God and consume Him? Absolutely Not, He died by the hands of sinners. Prepare for the coming of Jesus!! Christ died in the hand of sinners, yes. But in whose hands will sin & sinners be eliminated? Will they torch each other? Will they bring on the fire that melts all the elements and purify the earth too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WilloMar Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 By george I believe you're getting it! Gerry, you know Satan brings down fire from heaven, right? And the Bible says God brings fire down from heave, right? Well, when the Bible appears to contradict itself, it's because we don't have the correct understanding. Also, the Creator and the destroyer never work in co-partnership, so, by their fruits ye shall know them. It's really that simple! Once you understand this truth about the two Gods striving for our loyalty, the Bible will open up into a beautiful lesson Book. So lets all be ready to meet Jesus! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 14, 2009 Moderators Share Posted June 14, 2009 Where does it say that Satan brings down the fire from heaven that purifies the earth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuff sed Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 I think that you are confusing God's Mercy without taking into account His Justice. My reading of the scriptures tell me that God "does" bring down "Final Justice" on sinners" in spite of his inclination toward Mercy. In the final analysis when Mercy cannot be extended any longer then Justice must finally bring the end to the whole controversy. Satan commits suicide by bringing down fire and brimstone on himself and his followers????? I don't think so........... Satan is like the last rattlesnake I killed... Even after I chopped his head off the nerves would still allow the head to bite until all brain activity would cease. Satan is already dead. He just doesn't realize it as yet... Don't get near him...He still bites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutz13 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Quote: I think that you are confusing God's Mercy without taking into account His Justice. My reading of the scriptures tell me that God "does" bring down "Final Justice" on sinners" in spite of his inclination toward Mercy. In the final analysis when Mercy cannot be extended any longer then Justice must finally bring the end to the whole controversy. Satan commits suicide by bringing down fire and brimstone on himself and his followers????? I don't think so........... Satan is like the last rattlesnake I killed... Even after I chopped his head off the nerves would still allow the head to bite until all brain activity would cease. Satan is already dead. He just doesn't realize it as yet... Don't get near him...He still bites. My same bible says God killed Jesus. Did He? Scripture tells of Satan's death. "They shall throw you down into the pit, and you shall die the death of the slain in the midst of the seas"(Ezekiel 28:8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WilloMar Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Dear Gerry, in Job we learn that Satan accused God of favoring Job...so God told him that “All the he hath is in thy power... (Job 1:12),” well, you know the story. Then in verse 16 it is written: “The fire of God is fallen from heaven...,” etc. Then there is Rev. 13:13: “And he (Satan) doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.” Sister White adds: “...Satan will come in to deceive if possible the very elect. He claims to be Christ, and he is coming in, pretending to be the great medical missionary. He will cause fire to come down from heaven in the sight of men to prove that he is God. We must stand barricaded by the truths of the Bible. The canopy of truth is the only canopy under which we can stand safely (MM 87, 88).” I hope this helps. Christ is coming very soon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsailor29 Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 God created the sun and the moon, and he created all the stars too. This may appear to be off subject, but it isn't. Because Satan is not self existent. God created him. Satan may want us to think he just evolved from the slime, but no. God created Lucifer, and he fell to the state of Satan. He is the evil prosecuting attorney. But the point is that God created everything else. Everything that is not God, was created by God. I think it is silly to say something does exist which was not created by God. It does not. But that is a long way down the road for someone who thinks Satan is equal to God. Belief in the one infinite God who stands outside of space and time, and creates space and time, and is the one who causes all other things to be, is the beginning of wisdom. Quote Prs God, frm whm blssngs flw http://www.zoelifestyle.com/jmccall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 15, 2009 Moderators Share Posted June 15, 2009 Quote: My same bible says God killed Jesus. Did He? Scripture tells of Satan's death. "They shall throw you down into the pit, and you shall die the death of the slain in the midst of the seas"(Ezekiel 28:8) WHO is the "THEY?" that will throw Satan down into the pit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 15, 2009 Moderators Share Posted June 15, 2009 Indeed! The Bible is the ONLY protection we have from the deceiver. And that same Bible is the one that tells me that in the end, God is the one who will terminate sin and sinners and purify this planet with fire! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WilloMar Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Well, Gerry, and those with the same mindset, you’re hardening your heart. You're “Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth (2 Tim. 3:7).” Stop It!!! Sister White said that “The message will be carried not so much by argument as by the deep conviction of the Spirit of God (GC 612).” So, those of you who are devoted to taking our Lord’s Name in vain by attributing Satan’s character/name to the Creator’s character/name, get rid of your pride!!! And the rest of you who love the true knowledge of our Creator, lift up your eyes and praise His Holy Name/Seal/Glory: His Holy Character of Perfect Love, He is coming very soon. Therefore: We must prepare a welcoming committee for that great Day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parade Orange Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 I wonder who killed all the egypt's first born? FIRE? Quote All progress in the Spiritual Life is knowing and Loving GOD"there is non upon earth that I desire besides YOU" PS 73:25That perspective changes EVERYTHING-suffering and adversity are the means that makes us hungry for GOD. Disapointments will wean us away wordly occupations. Even sin(when repented of) becomes a mechanism to push us closer to HIM as we experience His Love and Forgiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parade Orange Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 well Of course GOD killed His Son at the cross! The wages of sin is death and He became sin for us! If the jews repented and confessed their evil at the First arrival of the Messiah and indeed become a light unto the gentiles Jesus still would have to die! The sin problem would still be there! Abraham was going to kill his son. The Lamb was provided in its place. The whole sanctuary service points to our Salvation!!! !!! Whats this talk of God not killing His only beggoten Son so that we might live? Quote All progress in the Spiritual Life is knowing and Loving GOD"there is non upon earth that I desire besides YOU" PS 73:25That perspective changes EVERYTHING-suffering and adversity are the means that makes us hungry for GOD. Disapointments will wean us away wordly occupations. Even sin(when repented of) becomes a mechanism to push us closer to HIM as we experience His Love and Forgiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted June 15, 2009 Members Share Posted June 15, 2009 Good thought Parade Orange. I think people have a problem believing that the Creator of the world would kill. From my point of view there is a difference between killing and out and out murder. I believe that's why in the commandment it says murder and not kill. Because if you get into an accident and someone dies, did you murder that person or kill that person? I think you could say that you did kill that person and not murder them. That's the way I see what will happen at the second resurrection, all those that are raised will be shown why they were not saved to live with God for eternity and they will except there fate. God is not murdering them but putting them out of there miseries. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WilloMar Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 You wonder who killed the first born in Egypt? Read God's Word! "For the Lord will pass through to smite (kill) the Egyptians; and when He seeth the blood (smeared around their doors)...the Lord will pass over the door, AND WILL NOT SUFFER(allow) THE DESTROYER TO COME IN UNTO YOUR HOUSES TO SMITE (kill) YOU (Ex. 12:23)." Now, once again, Jesus is the Creator, Satan is the guy who is the opposite of the Creator: THE DESTROYER!!! Why is that so hard to understand? Prepare to meet your God! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted June 15, 2009 Administrators Share Posted June 15, 2009 Who was it that made the first sacrifice when Adam sinnned? The Bible tells us that God took skins and made Adam and Eve clothing from the skins. But even though it doesn't seem to say (or not that I can remember) that God actually shed the blood of the lamb, He did institute the sacrificial system. And it is a system of death, because only shed blood can redeem a soul from the penalty of death. Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WilloMar Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Gail, are you sure that was the Creator that instituted the sacrificial system? “I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it (Eccles. 3:14)...” The sacrificial system no longer exists. And as far as God is concerned, it never did. “For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices (Jer. 7:22).” No, He never instituted the sacrificial system, because God doesn’t change His mind, “God is not a man, the He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent: hath He said, and shall He not do it? Or hath He spoken, and shall He not make it good (Num. 23:19)?” When Adam and Eve turned their backs to their Creator by following the serpent, they made him their god: “the god of this world (2 Cor. 4:4).” Prepare for the Day of the Lord! the Creator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutz13 Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Quote: WHO is the "THEY?" that will throw Satan down into the pit? There is a point in time when all truth is revealed, even to the wicked. "Those who see you will gaze at you, and consider you, saying: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, Who made the world as a wilderness and destroyed its cities, who did not open the house of his prisoners?"(Isaiah 14:16-17) Satan reaps what he has sown. That is not a truth only for us. The very seed he planted will kill him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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