Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[Lutz13]

Quote:

The Bible tells us that God took skins and made Adam and Eve clothing from the skins. But even though it doesn't seem to say (or not that I can remember) that God actually shed the blood of the lamb, He did institute the sacrificial system. And it is a system of death, because only shed blood can redeem a soul from the penalty of death.

Do you know why it takes blood?

[Maschil]

I believe because of Hebrew 9:22 Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.

[Lutz13]

Quote:

You wonder who killed the first born in Egypt? Read God's Word! "For the Lord will pass through to smite (kill) the Egyptians; and when He seeth the blood (smeared around their doors)...the Lord will pass over the door, AND WILL NOT SUFFER(allow) THE DESTROYER TO COME IN UNTO YOUR HOUSES TO SMITE (kill) YOU (Ex. 12:23)." Now, once again, Jesus is the Creator, Satan is the guy who is the opposite of the Creator: THE DESTROYER!!! Why is that so hard to understand?

"nor complain, as some of them also complained and were destroyed by the destroyer."(1 Corinthians 10:10) "Those who see you will gaze at you[referring to Satan], and consider you saying: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world as a wilderness and destroyed its cities, who did not open the house of his prisoners?"(Isaiah 14:16-17)

It is not hard to understand when you compare scripture with scripture. One verse says God hardened Pharaohs heart, and another says pharaoh hardened his own heart. When we comprehend what the wrath of God is(Romans 1:18-28, also read the story of Saul and Jesus), this becomes easy to understand.

[Lutz13]

I believe because of Hebrew 9:22 Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.

Right, there is no sorrow for the sin you committed.

[Robert]

I believe that's why in the commandment it says murder and not kill.

And I believe pigs fly, but only on the 2nd Tuesday of each week.

[Robert]

I believe because of Hebrew 9:22 Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.

And you died in Christ....How? God abandoned Christ to the surrounding destruction. Study it out. His "wrath" is passive....

[todd_vetter]

What Christ really spoke regarding the shedding of Blood for sins!

1. JESUS was teaching his disciples in the outer court of the Temple and one of them said unto him: Master, it is said by the priests that without shedding of blood there is no remission. Can then the blood offering of the law take away sin?

2. And Jesus answered: No blood offering, of beast or bird, or man, can take away sin, for how can the conscience be purged from sin by the shedding of innocent blood? Nay, it will increase the condemnation.

3. The priests indeed receive such offering as a reconciliation of the worshippers for the trespasses against the law of Moses, but for sins against the Law of God there can be no remission, save by repentance and amendment.

4. Is it not written in the prophets, Put your blood sacrifices to your burnt offerings, and away with them, and cease ye from the eating of flesh, for I spake not to your fathers nor commanded them, when I brought them out of Egypt, concerning these things? But this thing I commanded saying:

5, Obey my voice and walk in the ways that I have commanded you, and ye shall be my people, and it shall be well with you. But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear.

6. And what doth the Eternal command you but to do justice, love mercy and walk humbly with your God? Is it not written that in the beginning God ordained the fruits of the trees and the seeds and the herbs to be food for all flesh?

7. But they have made the House of Prayer a den of thieves, and for the pure Oblation with Incense, they have polluted my altars with blood, and eaten of the flesh of the slain.

8. But I say unto you: Shed no innocent blood nor eat ye flesh. Walk uprightly, love mercy, and do justly, and your days shall be long in the land.

9. The corn that groweth from the earth with the other grain, is it not transmuted by the Spirit into my flesh? The grapes of the vineyard, with the other fruits are they not transmuted by the Spirit into my blood? Let these, with your bodies and souls be your Memorial to the Eternal.

10. In these is the presence of God manifest as the Substance and as the Life of the world. Of these shall ye eat and drink for the remission of sins, and for eternal life, to all who obey my words.

To find out why this testimony is important to you. See the information at the link.

http://www.thedeathandresurection.com/pdf/the%20death%20and%20resurrection.pdf

[todd_vetter]

What Christ really spoke regarding the shedding of Blood for sins!

1. JESUS was teaching his disciples in the outer court of the Temple and one of them said unto him: Master, it is said by the priests that without shedding of blood there is no remission. Can then the blood offering of the law take away sin?

2. And Jesus answered: No blood offering, of beast or bird, or man, can take away sin, for how can the conscience be purged from sin by the shedding of innocent blood? Nay, it will increase the condemnation.

3. The priests indeed receive such offering as a reconciliation of the worshippers for the trespasses against the law of Moses, but for sins against the Law of God there can be no remission, save by repentance and amendment.

4. Is it not written in the prophets, Put your blood sacrifices to your burnt offerings, and away with them, and cease ye from the eating of flesh, for I spake not to your fathers nor commanded them, when I brought them out of Egypt, concerning these things? But this thing I commanded saying:

5, Obey my voice and walk in the ways that I have commanded you, and ye shall be my people, and it shall be well with you. But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear.

6. And what doth the Eternal command you but to do justice, love mercy and walk humbly with your God? Is it not written that in the beginning God ordained the fruits of the trees and the seeds and the herbs to be food for all flesh?

7. But they have made the House of Prayer a den of thieves, and for the pure Oblation with Incense, they have polluted my altars with blood, and eaten of the flesh of the slain.

8. But I say unto you: Shed no innocent blood nor eat ye flesh. Walk uprightly, love mercy, and do justly, and your days shall be long in the land.

9. The corn that groweth from the earth with the other grain, is it not transmuted by the Spirit into my flesh? The grapes of the vineyard, with the other fruits are they not transmuted by the Spirit into my blood? Let these, with your bodies and souls be your Memorial to the Eternal.

10. In these is the presence of God manifest as the Substance and as the Life of the world. Of these shall ye eat and drink for the remission of sins, and for eternal life, to all who obey my words.

To find out why this testimony is important to you. See the information at the link.

http://www.thedeathandresurection.com/pdf/the%20death%20and%20resurrection.pdf

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Good thought Parade Orange. I think people have a problem believing that the Creator of the world would kill. From my point of view there is a difference between killing and out and out murder. I believe that's why in the commandment it says murder and not kill. Because if you get into an accident and someone dies, did you murder that person or kill that person? I think you could say that you did kill that person and not murder them. That's the way I see what will happen at the second resurrection, all those that are raised will be shown why they were not saved to live with God for eternity and they will except there fate. God is not murdering them but putting them out of there miseries.

I don't buy it crusader. Also, why would God raise them up when they are already out of their miseries.... They are already dead, there is really no point in raising them up just to kill them.

[Parade Orange]

i think willomar didnt understand what my question meant.

anyhooooooooooooooo

Its obviouse God killed them or had someone do it! an inside job as they say :smile:

[Parade Orange]

As a gay man who believed almost my entire life that God wasnt a really a God of love! He made me gay and now Hates me cause i am gay! -No wonder i tried to kill myself as a teen. but i digress.. judging from His followers that LOOOOVE to use Bashing scriptures (not a sword but a bat) I saw GOD as a tryant!!!.

God is finally getting thru to me these last so many years. His followers are still the same but the SCRIPTURES have opened up to me and indeed what a GOD we serve. I am the first one that sees GODS LOVE for sinners and how killing or anihilation of unrepentant sinners sounds repellant to our understanding of a Loving and Just GOD. So it is sugar coated with fancy thoughts of our pet ideas.

Maybe cause we dont have the full idea of just how repugnant sin is to GOD!

Maybe we dont see the bigger picture of a universe of His Holy creation needs HIS protection.

Maybe we equate LOVE with warm fuzzies.

Maybe we see a Creator killing something He created as a sin?

Maybe we as sinners have to understand by our own human reasoning Gods obvious acts.

[Lutz13]

Quote:

As a gay man who believed almost my entire life that God wasnt a really a God of love! He made me gay and now Hates me cause i am gay! -No wonder i tried to kill myself as a teen. but i digress.. judging from His followers that LOOOOVE to use Bashing scriptures (not a sword but a bat) I saw GOD as a tryant!!!.

What those people do not realize is that, their sins are just as bad as a practicing gay person. So they need to take the plank out of their own eyes first.

Quote:

Maybe cause we dont have the full idea of just how repugnant sin is to GOD!

Maybe we dont see the bigger picture of a universe of His Holy creation needs HIS protection.

Maybe we equate LOVE with warm fuzzies.

Maybe we see a Creator killing something He created as a sin?

Maybe we as sinners have to understand by our own human reasoning Gods obvious acts.

Maybe we do not know God as much as we think we do.

Maybe we as sinners are bringing God down to our level and limiting Him to our ways. The world says to destroy evil with the sword. We know what God said about that.

[LifeHiscost]

If you believe God has human characteristics, yes, you'll think He did it....

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."

Hebrews 4:15 KJV

How could He be tempted like us if He doesn't have any human characteristics?

"God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

2 Corinthians 5:21 NIV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

if the puny little bit of love in my heart would save my children, it seems to me that God's love will save His.

There's no doubt, sailor, that God will save His children. However those who are at last destroyed are not His children.

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."John 8:44 KJV

It is true that as long as we have breath, we can become children of God by His grace. However the sad fact is that some will not.

"Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved."Luke 8:12 NASB

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. "

John 5:39-41 KJV

Blessings!

[Guest WilloMar]

We can keep going around and around with this question: Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator? Because of our human characteristic of pride and rebellion, we believe we’re the one that's right. I’m the same way...I don’t like to be wrong. So, one of my prayers to my Saviour is to make me teachable, because I very much want to know Him. And to know Him like the Lord wants: “Thus saith the Lord, let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth Me (Jer. 9:23, 24)...” That’s what I want, don’t you?

A couple of days ago it was brought out that the Lord was not only merciful and loving, but He was also just. A friend of mine some years back illustrated his concept of accusatory justice by pointing at someone and saying, “When I point a finger at somebody else, three more are pointing back at me.” I think that’s a good illustration. Therefore whenever we sinners call for justice, we are bringing it down, perhaps threefold, upon ourselves. With this attitude we will be judged.

What is God’s justice? His non-coercive character! He never forces anyone to accept, or reject, Him. That is our free will. When we reject Him by rejecting His Holy Spirit, we’re hardening our own hearts against His holy influence and we are left to do that in which we love ---- Sin. This is the wrath of God: “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness....God also gave them up....God gave them up....God gave them over (Rom. 1:18, 24, 26, 28)...” The Creator God takes all responsibility ---- Good and Bad ---- upon Himself because He’s our Saviour, Redeemer and sin-Bearer: “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things (Isa. 45:7).” In reality, God doesn’t give us up; we give God up by turning from Him. That’s our choice and therefore we are our own worst enemy! We actually judge ourselves when we turn from Him.

Christ is coming soon!

[Parade Orange]

LIFEHISCOST made a very good point about GOD being tempted and not human as us!

the way i undwrstand it is that at the root of sin is selfishness and wanting to act independant of an AUTHORITY.

JESUS im sure had moments of cringing to put HIMSELF around His own creation that despise and hate HIM and His authority! For eternity back He was The KING of the UNIVERSES. Yet HE submitted to the plan of Salvation. Every moment went by knowing He can take off and leave us in the dust.

Thats a very strong TEMPATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest WilloMar]

I’ve been reading the Bible and I came across this verse: “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8).” Do the spirits of the righteous go to heaven right after death? They must because that verse is a “Thus saith the Lord,” Right? Isn’t that what distinguishes truth?

Therefore if the righteous go to heaven at death, the wicked must go to hell when they die, Right? That has to be the obvious conclusion from these verses: “And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched (Mark 9:43).” And, “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, ‘Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels (Matt. 25:41).’” And again, “The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings (Isa. 33:14)?”

No, I don’t believe that nonsense of the natural immortality of the soul. That deception came straight from Satan’s warped brain. My point, however, is this; it’s easy for surface readers to come up with whatever they like. There is always a verse here or there to prove their belief. The Scriptures were written in a way that separates those digging for truth from those skimming the surface to prove their specious reasoning. Here’s just one example:

“And Mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly (Ex. 19:18).” Now, a little dig: “Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire (Ezek. 28:14).”

Christ is coming soon, let’s all be ready to meet Him!

[Guest WilloMar]

Gerry Cabalo made the point a few days ago that I’d like to address. He wrote: “Christ died in the hand of sinners, yes. But in whose hands will sin & sinners be eliminated? Will they torch each other?” Gerry, there is such a thing as sin and effect. Just be a little more attentive to the news. Nations are full of hate and greed, amassing great wealth. And because of their greedy propensity many peoples are slaughtered; wars and more wars, and threats and more threats of nuclear annihilation are on the rise; the environment is polluted from companies’ self-indulgence, causing illnesses and sufferings and deaths and cancers with the help of food conglomerates and the holes in the ozone layer; global warming is, and even will be more so, a killing machine. I can go on and on...like water becoming more and more polluted; contaminated fish; garbage everywhere, even in the oceans, oil spills and coal sludge polluting the waters of the earth; killings in schools and clinics and museums; parents killing their children, and children killing their parents....These are all the consequences of sin. So, “In whose hands will sin & sinners be eliminated?” If you don’t know by now, you better go back and place your head in the sand.

The sad part of this sin-elimination thing is, there are many innocents that are dying now. But that won't be much longer, so rejoice, for after probation ends for the world, not one true child of God will die.

So, if you still believe Jesus is a killer, maybe you should inform Him that if He wants to get in on the action, He’d better hurry before they’re all gone!

Be prepared for the Creator Jesus, He is coming soon!

[LifeHiscost]

Or have you thought of the possibility that in fact both of the above information were not mutually exclusive but both sides of the same coin of truth?

Well said, Gerry. And I'm sure I don't have to remind you that it is impossible to obtain logic from our Father in heaven, for any person who only accepts part of the Scripture as being true,

no matter the reason for rejecting the Word.

Not that this need be accepted by any other, I have learned that when I don't see logic in whatever the Word reveals, it doesn't reveal a lack in God's wisdom. And since there are only three involved in my search for wisdom, me, the Comforter, and the enemy of souls, the only two I see as having a lack during the search are me and the accuser of the brethren, and it behooves me to keep searching for Truth until it all makes sense to me.

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."Proverbs 3:5 KJV

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD."

Isaiah 55:8 KJV

"But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."Matthew 4:4 KJV

Keep the faith!

[LifeHiscost]

All just my humble opinion...Love and Mercy are seen, not Vengeance and Hatred...

Rolling on...

And the opinion of others who believe that the Master of the universe is capable of leaving a message understandable to all willing to depend on Another more able than they themselves, to sort out what troubles us.

"...guide me in your truth and teach me, for you are God my Savior, and my hope is in you all day long."

Psalm 25:5 NIV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Ted_Oplinger

All just my humble opinion...Love and Mercy are seen, not Vengeance and Hatred...

Rolling on...

Thank you Ted, I enjoyed your thoughts. :-)

Mark

As I did both of your well thought out conclusions.

The only thing I need to be sure and remember is God's great love for those who wander in a morass of misconceptions, and that as long as there is breath in their nostrils this side of Jesus' return, God is holding out His hand of forgiveness with unfathomable love that seeks for their willingness to accept the gift of repentance for their unbelief.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."Matthew 23:37,38 KJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Let's see. The prophets of Baal did not have the ability to torch their sacrifice on Mt. Carmel, but they'll have the ability to torch each other?

And Satan will zap his own army? and then zap himself? Like Saul falling on his sword?

I'm not sure trying to prove who's the most guilty for the slain at the earth's last moments, is necessary to find assurance in God's love. However if one does not believe that God's love promotes the just rewards of the wicked, can we have a certainty for His justice, which begs mercy for us, when we fail to recognize our need for the cleansing of Jesus' blood to wash away our own failings?

"And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?"

Matthew 12:26 KJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Gail, are you sure that was the Creator that instituted the sacrificial system? “I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it (Eccles. 3:14)...” The sacrificial system no longer exists. And as far as God is concerned, it never did. “For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices (Jer. 7:22).” No, He never instituted the sacrificial system, because God doesn’t change His mind, “God is not a man, the He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent: hath He said, and shall He not do it? Or hath He spoken, and shall He not make it good (Num. 23:19)?” When Adam and Eve turned their backs to their Creator by following the serpent, they made him their god: “the god of this world (2 Cor. 4:4).”

Prepare for the Day of the Lord!

the Creator

I'm glad we don't have to depend on our perfect understanding to find assurance of our personal eternal life.

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."John 17:3 KJV

"But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:"1 Corinthians 1:30 KJV

Blessings!

[Gerr]

Quote:

These are all the consequences of sin. So, “In whose hands will sin & sinners be eliminated?” If you don’t know by now, you better go back and place your head in the sand.

Sin cleansing itself of sin? Yeah, you got your head burried too deeply, my friend. Have you ever seen a stain removing itself? Dirt sweeping itself out? Is it evil for God to CLEANSE His universe of stain, dirt, sin? Our God is a "consumming fire". Evil happens to be combustible in the presence of our holy "consumming fire" God. It's as simple as that. Don't need any fancy theological footwork or jump through hoops to twist Scripture to fit our own preconceived notion of what God should be like. Scripture plainly says cut out evil from His creation. Is it evil for a surgeon to CUT OUT cancer from the body?

[Robert]

Sin cleansing itself of sin?

Sin is not something tangible. Sin is a force...a principle, i.e., sin living in me. We can describe sin, but we cannot explain sin. Sin, the love of self, brings all sort of problems. Those problems will eventually take us under.

The results of sin introduced death. I live in a sinful body. Because of that I'll die. Sin is destroying me. Therefore sin is self-destructive, that is to say, when I die sin dies, right?