Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[Gerr]

And you go poof on your own? How come all the people in the world indwelt by sin don't just go poof now?

[Robert]

And you go poof on your own? How come all the people in the world indwelt by sin don't just go poof now?

People die all the time. They die of natural calamities, diseases and old age.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world [the human race] through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--

[Twilight]

And you go poof on your own? How come all the people in the world indwelt by sin don't just go poof now?

This argument has to get around the last man standing issue.

So to deal with that, there has to be a timed destruction of everyone.

Problem is, we know there is specific lengths of destruction for each individual.

That is a controlled destruction.

A governed destruction.

It is not logical to assume that this will be done by the sinner themselves.

A far better explanation would be that God reveals Himself in all of His holiness.

His very presence is the exact opposite to sin and sin is destroyed as it cannot stand in His presence unless He permits it.

This is why God is a consuming fire.

Those that sin and are attached to sin will be destroyed by this "strange" act of God.

This is where my studies have taken me so far.

God bless,

Mark

[Robert]

It is not logical to assume that this will be done by the sinner themselves.

You are not listening....The sinner doesn't kill himself...sin kills. When a man goes out and lives a life of sexual immorality and contracts AIDS, what kills him? What gave him his lusts? Right, sin....

Sin is not a person...it is not a object, but sin kills. It pays in death as in "the wages of sin is death".

[Robert]

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion [disease/death].

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

It is not logical to assume that this will be done by the sinner themselves.

You are not listening....The sinner doesn't kill himself...sin kills. When a man goes out and lives a life of sexual immorality and contracts AIDS, what kills him? What gave him his lusts? Right, sin....

Sin is not a person...it is not a object, but sin kills. It pays in death as in "the wages of sin is death".

That is correct Robert, I am not listening to you on this issue, as I believe you are teaching error, after listening to you for quite some time and checking your position against scripture, this is the conclusion I have come to.

Mark

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

You are not listening....The sinner doesn't kill himself...sin kills. When a man goes out and lives a life of sexual immorality and contracts AIDS' date=' what kills him? What gave him his lusts? Right, sin....

Sin is not a person...it is not a object, but sin kills. It pays in death as in "the wages of sin is death". [/quote']

That is correct Robert, I am not listening to you on this issue, as I believe you are teaching error, after listening to you for quite some time and checking your position against scripture, this is the conclusion I have come to.

Mark

And that is your prerogative, but be very sure you aren't inclining your ear toward tradition and error....Be very sure.

[Musicman1228]

A common thread in Christianity today is that there is no judgment based on deeds because we are all save through grace by faith, and what we do has no bearing on that. Is this something Jesus Christ taught while here on earth? Actually, Jesus did not teach that. Salvation by grace through faith came after Jesus left for Home.

The O.T. is full of God bringing down punishment on the wicked that refused to obey Him. Check out the original Passover in Egypt.

Modern Christians (post Paul) believe that the God of the N.T. is not the same God as the God of the O.T., primarily because of this belief. They believe that the God of the O.T. could not be the same God because in the N.T. God is all love, mercy, forgiveness and salvation in spite of our sin; in the O.T. sinners are held accountable for their actions and God punishes them is they disobey.

But is this true based upon the words of Jesus Christ as given by the eyewitnesses to His ministry here on earth?

Not to put too fine a point on this topic but from my study I would certainly say "NO".

When Jesus Christ wanted to prove a point from Scripture to the Pharisees the only Scripture there was for Him to use was The Law, The Prophets, the Psalms. He did not use the words of Paul or any other fallible human.

The best example of what Jesus taught about this was the example of His death on the Cross. The question then becomes: Who or what killed Jesus on the cross? How was His death accomplished?

Jesus was the perfect Passover lamb; as such He could have NO sin in Him or on Him and still be blameless and act as the Passover sacrifice. Jesus did not carry the weight of sin with Him on the cross. Sin did not kill Jesus because if that were true then sin and Satan are more powerful than the God of Creation, who is Jesus. This is absurd. Ref. the story of Abraham and Issac. Issac represent Jesus Christ, Abraham represents God the Father. In this example the metaphor ended when Abraham moved to kill his only son. When Jesus Christ was on the cross there was NO ONE to stay the hand of the Father in executing His Only Begotten Son. Only God can kill God.

Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. Matt. 10:17-18.

If God did not spare His Son who was wholly righteous and sinless from death by execution (to pay the penalty for the disobedience of the Kingdom of Heaven in Eden) what makes people think that He will spare them if they fail to become obedient to His will which is the Law?

From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. Rev.19:15.

“Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has DONE. Rev.22:12.

[Robert]

If God did not spare His Son who was wholly righteous and sinless from death by execution....what makes people think that He will spare them if they fail to become obedient to His will which is the Law?

Earth to Musicman....

1] I've got bad news for you....You are not measuring up....In other words you are a sinner who, of himself, stands condemned under law. So be careful with the legalistic stuff....

2] Jesus as God is fully righteous, but Jesus took us (He became what He was not) into Himself...into His deity. That humanity was fallen and under the curse for it belongs to us.

If the humanity He assumed was sinless, then God was unjust in bringing judgment upon Christ the sinless one. Further more Deity can't die....It's impossible....

[Musicman1228]

If as you say the Deity can't die, and Jesus Christ is God the Deity, then Jesus Christ did not die to pay the penalty for the sins of the Kingdom; and if Jesus said you must be in the Kingdom to be saved (all through His teachings) then if you are in the Kingdom then you are in heap-big-trouble because your penalty is not paid and you will die the second death. In other words you are saying that Jesus Christ is not the Son of God (as He himself said) because if He was then it would be impossible for Him do actually die for the sins of the Kingdom.

Please set me straight on this as I am now confused (assuming I wasn't before this).

[Dr. Rich]

Uh? WHAT? Didn't Jesus say if we truely repent He is faithful and just and will forgive us from ALL unrightousness? What is it that I am missing here? Isn't 'unrightousness' the same as sinless?

"Seek ye first the Kingdom of God AND His Righteousness..." Ok, is this just a carrot on a stick in front of our nose to keep us 'seeking' and never finding?

"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied." No--wait a minute! Didn't Paul say that no one can be righteous or sinless? Am I to keep seeking and being hungry and thirsty for nothing? Come on now--what gives?

[Gerr]

That's Robertian theology for you. You'll never "measure up!"

[Lutz13]

A common thread in Christianity today is that there is no judgment based on deeds because we are all save through grace by faith, and what we do has no bearing on that. Is this something Jesus Christ taught while here on earth? Actually, Jesus did not teach that. Salvation by grace through faith came after Jesus left for Home.

The O.T. is full of God bringing down punishment on the wicked that refused to obey Him. Check out the original Passover in Egypt.

Modern Christians (post Paul) believe that the God of the N.T. is not the same God as the God of the O.T., primarily because of this belief. They believe that the God of the O.T. could not be the same God because in the N.T. God is all love, mercy, forgiveness and salvation in spite of our sin; in the O.T. sinners are held accountable for their actions and God punishes them is they disobey.

But is this true based upon the words of Jesus Christ as given by the eyewitnesses to His ministry here on earth?

Not to put too fine a point on this topic but from my study I would certainly say "NO".

When Jesus Christ wanted to prove a point from Scripture to the Pharisees the only Scripture there was for Him to use was The Law, The Prophets, the Psalms. He did not use the words of Paul or any other fallible human.

The best example of what Jesus taught about this was the example of His death on the Cross. The question then becomes: Who or what killed Jesus on the cross? How was His death accomplished?

Jesus was the perfect Passover lamb; as such He could have NO sin in Him or on Him and still be blameless and act as the Passover sacrifice. Jesus did not carry the weight of sin with Him on the cross. Sin did not kill Jesus because if that were true then sin and Satan are more powerful than the God of Creation, who is Jesus. This is absurd. Ref. the story of Abraham and Issac. Issac represent Jesus Christ, Abraham represents God the Father. In this example the metaphor ended when Abraham moved to kill his only son. When Jesus Christ was on the cross there was NO ONE to stay the hand of the Father in executing His Only Begotten Son. Only God can kill God.

Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. Matt. 10:17-18.

If God did not spare His Son who was wholly righteous and sinless from death by execution (to pay the penalty for the disobedience of the Kingdom of Heaven in Eden) what makes people think that He will spare them if they fail to become obedient to His will which is the Law?

From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. Rev.19:15.

“Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has DONE. Rev.22:12.

You're missing the point of all of this. What killed Jesus? Was it God the Father, or was it sin?

[LifeHiscost]

A couple of days ago it was brought out that the Lord was not only merciful and loving, but He was also just. A friend of mine some years back illustrated his concept of accusatory justice by pointing at someone and saying, “When I point a finger at somebody else, three more are pointing back at me.” I think that’s a good illustration. Therefore whenever we sinners call for justice, we are bringing it down, perhaps threefold, upon ourselves. With this attitude we will be judged.

Excellent post! As for the finger pointing, I believe it is not biblical that we need accept either the one pointing at us from another or the three we can't seem to avoid when we become accusatory.

"I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself."

1 Corinthians 4:3 NIV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Gerry Cabalo made the point a few days ago that I’d like to address. He wrote: “Christ died in the hand of sinners, yes. But in whose hands will sin & sinners be eliminated? Will they torch each other?” Gerry, there is such a thing as sin and effect.

So, if you still believe Jesus is a killer, maybe you should inform Him that if He wants to get in on the action, He’d better hurry before they’re all gone!

Be prepared for the Creator Jesus, He is coming soon!

WilloMar, I'm surprised that you've deduced from Gerry's posts, that he believes God to be a killer, in the worst sense of the word. All he's been trying to do is get people, some in particular, to take God at His Word and recognize that there will come a time in the end when God will need to take things into His own hands, and instead of letting sin take its' course, He will destroy those and the things that are destroying His children.

While at present, for the most part, I'm satisfied to believe sin and sinners are allowed to do the worst possible, which includes the taking of life. OTOH, when we read certain instances where there is destruction that occurs, and an immediate in context of God speaking the part He has taken, we have either to take the Word that God Himself speaks or we can believe that our connection with God is greater than the servant of the Lord who wrote the record.

Seems to me to be an attitude revealing a definite lack of humility.

"If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are." 1 Corinthians 3:17 NKJV

And that's New Covenant theology!

Blessings!

[Gerr]

Quote:

You're missing the point of all of this. What killed Jesus? Was it God the Father, or was it sin?

An either/or thinking will box you in every time.

"But he was wounded for our transgressions;

he was crushed for our iniquities;

upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,

and with his stripes we are healed.

....and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

.....Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him;

he has put him to grief

when his soul makes an offering for sin,

khe shall see his offspring he shall prolong his days;

the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand." Isa 53:5,6,10

[Gerr]

Some people like to look at their glass as half empty. Some look at it as half full.

Some look at the law as a yoke. Some look at the law as liberty.

Some look at their Surgeon as a butcher. Some look at Him as a Healer.

Some look at the Judge as a blood-thirsty revenger. Some look at the Judge as a promoter of order.

Some people look at God as a destroyer. Some look at Him as a Cleanser.

[Robert]

If as you say the Deity can't die, and Jesus Christ is God the Deity, then Jesus Christ did not die to pay the penalty for the sins.....

I don't know if you are SDA, but if so EGW is usually requested. So, here it is:

"Deity did not sink and die, humanity died." The question is whose humanity?

Remember Jesus is God...He is Deity. At the incarnation He assumed what by native right wasn't His...i.e., our fallen humanity. Therefore it was our humanity that died "in the body of Christ". After all the law condemns you, not Christ. Read Romans 6:6/7:4

[Robert]

That's Robertian theology for you. You'll never "measure up!"

And even if you did (which goes against texts like Rom 3:23 & 1 John 1:8) you still have a mountain of forgiven sins....Again, the law isn't in the business of forgiveness...no partial credit for good behavior. The law says obey me in every detail, and perfectly at that, then you can have life.

[Robert]

...Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief...

Right, Jesus was crushed...How?

My God My God why have You forsaken Me?

Also remember at Gethsemane Jesus told the mob, "This is your hour and the prince of darkness". In other words God abandoned Christ who became sin for us....So God didn't do all these terrible atrocities to Christ. Then who? Our humanity backed by the powers of darkness.

[Robert]

Some look at the law as a yoke. Some look at the law as liberty.

The law of liberty is "the law of the Spirit of life"....It's not talking about the law. The law, in and of itself, is a yoke of bondage unless you keep it perfectly from day one. Since you haven't and aren't it places you in prison (in death house).....No matter how good you are you ain't good enough for the law.

[Lutz13]

Quote:

An either/or thinking will box you in every time.

"But he was wounded for our transgressions;

he was crushed for our iniquities;

upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,

and with his stripes we are healed.

....and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

.....Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him;

he has put him to grief

when his soul makes an offering for sin,

khe shall see his offspring he shall prolong his days;

the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand." Isa 53:5,6,10

So do you think God controlled the Jews and the Roman government to murder His Son? The picture I keep getting is, God is playing games with us all... Using these people to kill those people, and the Jews and the Romans to kill the One He sent.

Yet, when I understand what His wrath is. I see Him taking the responsibility because He did not prevent it from happening. I'm just trying to understand all of this.

[Musicman1228]

From Whom did Adam and Eve get their DNA?

This same source also provided the DNA for the human body of Jesus Christ. Can God create anything that is not perfect and holy?

Jesus Christ had NO sin in him otherwise He could not act as the Passover for the Kingdom of Heaven. Therefore He could have no sinful genetic material supplied by any naturally conceived and born human, e.g. Mary was a surrogate/birth mother to Jesus. Rev. 12 tells us who the real mother of Jesus Christ is; v.17 says that we must be born of that same mother if we are to be the siblings of Jesus Christ. The identifier as to whether you are the offspring of this woman is that you "keep the commandments of God, and hold (only) to the testimony of Jesus."

(Jesus) was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,

Rom.1:4.

Here Paul says that before His resurrection Jesus was not the Son of God but was declared or granted this title by and at the time of His resurrection from the dead.

Either Jesus was God or He wasn't. Paul here says He wasn't. If Jesus is God then to have taken the physical nature of fallen humanity would have placed Him outside of the requirement for acting as the Passover (lamb), spotless and blameless, without sin. God would not have been able to accepted His sacrifice as valid. God did accept His sacrifice as valid to pay the penalty for the sins of the Kingdom of Heaven, therefore Jesus did not have ANY sin in Him at the time of His death (or any other time). The fact that Jesus had no sin in Him is the only reason why He was able to come back from the dead after having suffered the second death for us. Anyone that dies the second death while still with sin in them will remain dead for eternity. Jesus had no sin in either His physical body or in His spirit therefore the grave could not hold Him. Praise God!

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

If as you say the Deity can't die, and Jesus Christ is God the Deity, then Jesus Christ did not die to pay the penalty for the sins.....

I don't know if you are SDA, but if so EGW is usually requested. So, here it is:

"Deity did not sink and die, humanity died." The question is whose humanity?

Remember Jesus is God...He is Deity. At the incarnation He assumed what by native right wasn't His...i.e., our fallen humanity. Therefore it was our humanity that died "in the body of Christ". After all the law condemns you, not Christ. Read Romans 6:6/7:4

"For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." 2 Cor 5:21 ESV.

"And the LORD laid on him the iniquity of us all." Isa 53:6 ESV.

So whose humanity died? HIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not mine or yours!!!!!!!!!!

Ours dies when we are buried with Him in baptism, Rom 6:1-4.

[Gerr]

Quote:

So do you think God controlled the Jews and the Roman government to murder His Son? The picture I keep getting is, God is playing games with us all... Using these people to kill those people, and the Jews and the Romans to kill the One He sent.

Yet, when I understand what His wrath is. I see Him taking the responsibility because He did not prevent it from happening. I'm just trying to understand all of this.

Did God twist the arms of the Jews & the Romans to kill His Son? NO!!! It was Satan who was in control of the mob and the priests. Yet it was God's will/pleasure to sacrifice His Son. Here's another example of a shared responsibility again, so that one writer viewing at the picture can say, God did it. Then another writer looking from another vantage point, can say, the Jews or the Romans did it. The correct picture emerges when you put them all together.