skyblue888 Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 It is the Spirit of Christ that is bearing the sins of the whole world for "In Him all things hold together." Col.1:17. Christ bears the curse wherever it is found, and where is it not found? We read in The Desire of Ages that as iniquity abounds the Spirit of Christ is withdrawing from the earth, and calamity follows calamity by sea and by land. (D.A.636.1) It is in that sense that sin destroys itself. This is what is meant by God's wrath. When Christ has no other choice but to withraw His presence, calamity follows calamity by sea and by land. This is happening in the world as we speak. Day after day we hear of one calamity after another. God's Spirit is withdrawing from the earth. "As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be when the Son of Man shall be revealed. The Lord is removing His restrictions from the earth, and soon there will be death and destruction. Those who are without God's protection will find no safety in any place or position." 8 t 50. "They withheld the Lord's money and hindered the work which he designed to have done. God was not honored by the use made of His entrusted goods. Therefore, He let the curse fall upon them, permitting the spoiler to destroy their fruits and to bring calamities upon them." 6 T 390. sky "Everything in the world is in agitation. The signs of the times are ominous. Coming events cast their shadows before. The Spirit of God is withdrawing from the earth, and calamity follows calamity by sea and by land. There are tempests, earthquakes, fires, floods, murders of every grade. Who can read the future? Where is security?" D.A.636. Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 Sin has not been wiping itself out for the last 6000 years, it keeps growing... That is self evident. The argument that God does not destroy, implies that God is making sure sin "exists" if you belief sin will destroy itself. Because if all God has to do is draw back for sin to destroy itself, why did he not do that at the beginning. Sin grows, it does not "destroy itself". Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 I have started a new thread just to discuss this point pnat. Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 14, 2009 Moderators Share Posted October 14, 2009 Sky-- or anyone else-- please check out the parables of Jesus regarding what happens to the wicked: Every single parable of Jesus that touches on the topic teaches that God destroys the wicked. His parables never say that the wicked kill each other or that they commit suicide. They are consistently "cast out," "thrown into the fire of gehenna," "burned up," "thrown into the furnace of fire," "thrown into outer darkness," "cut in pieces," "tortured," "rejected," "go away into eternal punishment," etc. 1) Matt. 8: 12-- "cast out into outer darkness." (Compare Matt. 13: 42, 50) Obviously God does the "casting." 2) Matt. 13: 30, 40. The landowner orders his servants to gather the tares and "burn them up" at the time of the harvest. 3) Matt. 13: 42-- tares are thrown into the furnace of fire where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 4) Matt. 13: 47, 50-- the bad are "thrown away"-- "thrown into the furnace of fire." 5) Matt. 18: 8, 9-- People will be "cast into the eternal fire." 6) Matt. 18: 34, 35-- Jesus says His Father will hand us over to "torturers" if we do not forgive others from our hearts. 7) Matt. 21: 40, 41-- the landowner bring the vine-growers to a "wretched end." In Mark 12: 29, the owner will "destroy the vine-growers." See also Luke 20: 16. 8) Matt. 22: 13-- The king tells his servants to bind the man without wedding garment and "throw him" into "outer darkness." (Compare Matt. 13: 50) 9) Matt. 24: 37, 38, 39-- Jesus teaches that people will die at Christ's return just as they did at the Deluge. In the Deluge, God destroyed them. The wicked made themselves unfit to live. In that sense, they destroyed themselves, but it was God who caused the Deluge which brought about their deaths.(I understand you disagree with this and that you believe God did not destroy the wicked in the Deluge, but I think you will agree that the Bible says He destroyed them.) 10) Matt. 24: 51-- The "Master" will "cut the slave in pieces." (cf. Luke 12: 46). The slave does not cut himself nor do the slaves cut each other. 11) Matt. 25: 11-- The foolish virgins beg to be let inside the wedding feast (heaven) but they are rejected by the bridegroom. God will say that He doesn't know them. (Cf. Luke 13: 25, 27) 12) Matt. 25: 30-- The "Master" orders the "worthless slave" to be "thrown into the outer darkness"-- into oblivion. (cf. 13: 50). There will be "fire." 13) Matt. 25: 31-41. When Jesus comes in His glory, people will be judged, or separated, according to how they've treated Jesus in the person of other people. Those who have neglected to be kind and loving toward others will be sent "into the eternal fire" which God has prepared for the devil and his angels. 14) Matt. 25: 46-- the lost "go away into eternal punishment." 15) Luke 19: 27-- A nobleman (Christ) has his "enemies" "slain" in His sight. His "enemies" are those who did not want Him to reign over them. NOTE: In none of the parables are the wicked destroyed by Satan or by other wicked people, nor do they commit suicide or voluntarily jump into the lake of fire. They portray God as being active-- not passive-- in destroying sin and sinners. God is in charge of how and when they die. The death of the wicked is viewed as a "punishment," not merely as a "natural result" of sin. The death of the wicked is a supernatural event. God is actively involved in that destruction. It is true that the wicked destroy themselves in the sense that, by their own choices, they make themselves unfit to live in heaven. But the point is that God and the righteous decide that the wicked deserve to die and they also decide the portion that they must suffer. This is also the view that I get out of EW 52, 55 and Ellen White's other writings. You've said that it is not an arbitrary decision on the part of God, and in this I am in complete agreement. Their destruction is due to their own choices. Their lives show that they deserve the punishment they receive. God's law and the justice of God require their destruction. I believe this is how the parables of Jesus portray the destruction of the wicked. How do you understand the teachings of the parables on this point? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 WOW--Great post John317! You went way beyond what I would have written or said. Mucho thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 14, 2009 Moderators Share Posted October 14, 2009 See-- we agree on quite a bit, really. :-) Hey, by the way, don't you find that Jesus' parables on this point agree with what Paul says in his letters? If not, please show some of his statements about this topic which you believe contradict the teachings of Jesus in the parables regarding the destruction of the wicked. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Quote: In the laws of God in nature, effect follows cause with unerring certainty. The reaping will testify as to what the sowing has been. The slothful worker is condemned by his work. The harvest bears witness against him. So in spiritual things: the faithfulness of every worker is measured by the results of his work. The character of his work, whether diligent or slothful, is revealed by the harvest. It is thus that his destiny for eternity is decided. Every seed sown produces a harvest of its kind. So it is in human life. We all need to sow the seeds of compassion, sympathy, and love; for we shall reap what we sow. Every characteristic of selfishness, self-love, self-esteem, every act of self-indulgence, will bring forth a like harvest. He who lives for self is sowing to the flesh, and of the flesh he will reap corruption. God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest. (COL 84) A comment on one of the parables Christ taught regarding the destruction of the wicked (I thought I already posted this, but I don't see it. Sorry if this is a double post.) Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Quote: In the laws of God in nature, effect follows cause with unerring certainty. The reaping will testify as to what the sowing has been. The slothful worker is condemned by his work. The harvest bears witness against him. So in spiritual things: the faithfulness of every worker is measured by the results of his work. The character of his work, whether diligent or slothful, is revealed by the harvest. It is thus that his destiny for eternity is decided. Every seed sown produces a harvest of its kind. So it is in human life. We all need to sow the seeds of compassion, sympathy, and love; for we shall reap what we sow. Every characteristic of selfishness, self-love, self-esteem, every act of self-indulgence, will bring forth a like harvest. He who lives for self is sowing to the flesh, and of the flesh he will reap corruption. God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest. (COL 84) A comment on one of the parables Christ taught regarding the destruction of the wicked (I thought I already posted this, but I don't see it. Sorry if this is a double post.) But again, we need all the evidence, not those that just fit a viewpoint... God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. What if this is simply saying, God does not arbitrarily destroy anyone. That their own actions have determined Gods destruction of them? Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Quote: Me:God is not against violence? Practices it Himself? Or something else? J:Personally I'm fine with anything God does. I trust Him completely no matter what He does and whether or not I understand the reason He chooses to do something. What you're writing here seems completely circular. Say God lied. Would you be fine with that? Or would you say God wouldn't do that? Quote: The Bible and Ellen White say that there was war in heaven and that God's forces compelled Lucifer and his forces to leave heaven. Although we can't know the details of how that occurred, it is obvious that Lucifer and his fallen angels resisted leaving heaven but were made to go. They "fought" and the evil angels were "cast out." I think it's safe to say that there was a certain amount of what humans would call "violence" involved. She wrote: Quote: Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. (DA 759) This is diametrically opposed to what you just said. Clearly if the prevailing power of God's government is truth and love, then what "forced" Satan and his followers to leave was truth and love, not compelling power, or force, or violence. Amen! Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Truth and love are not described with the word WAR. Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc Quote: In the laws of God in nature, effect follows cause with unerring certainty. The reaping will testify as to what the sowing has been. The slothful worker is condemned by his work. The harvest bears witness against him. So in spiritual things: the faithfulness of every worker is measured by the results of his work. The character of his work, whether diligent or slothful, is revealed by the harvest. It is thus that his destiny for eternity is decided. Every seed sown produces a harvest of its kind. So it is in human life. We all need to sow the seeds of compassion, sympathy, and love; for we shall reap what we sow. Every characteristic of selfishness, self-love, self-esteem, every act of self-indulgence, will bring forth a like harvest. He who lives for self is sowing to the flesh, and of the flesh he will reap corruption. God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest. (COL 84) A comment on one of the parables Christ taught regarding the destruction of the wicked (I thought I already posted this, but I don't see it. Sorry if this is a double post.) But again, we need all the evidence, not those that just fit a viewpoint... God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. What if this is simply saying, God does not arbitrarily destroy anyone. That their own actions have determined Gods destruction of them? The context has absolutely nothing to with God's arbitrarily. There's not a word said about that, or suggesting that. If this were the point, there would be some sort of argument that God was destroying people, but this destruction was justified, for reasons A, B, C etc. Instead her whole point is that what one sows is what one reaps, like DA 764. The wicked are destroyed, not as a result of an action God takes against them, but as a result of their own choices. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 ...and that the wrath of God could not come until Jesus had finished His work in the most holy place, laid off His priestly attire, and clothed Himself with the garments of vengeance. Then Jesus will step out from between the Father and men, and God will keep silence no longer, but pour out His wrath on those who have rejected His truth. {CET 100} I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in my anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. For the day of vengeance is in my heart, and the year of my redeemed has come. Isa 63:4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfinder Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Revelation 14:19,20 So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God. And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses' bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles. Revelation 19:15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 We must be extremely careful not to read the Scriptures and interpret them as the Catholic priests and prelates read and interpreted them in the Dark Ages. They repeated the history of Ancient Israel. Jesus said, "How readest thou?" "They were doing the work that Satan desired them to do, taking a course to misrepresent the character of God, and cause the world to look upon Him as a tyran." D.A.36. It is not enough to be able to read the Scriptures. The Holy Spirit must be our Teacher. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfinder Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 She is my Teacher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Then "she" is a spurious teacher and as Martin Luther would say, I slap her spirit on the snout! Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Revelation 14:19,20So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God. And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses' bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles. These words are describing the work of destruction taking place after the close of probation when Satan shall have entire control of the finally impenitent. God's restraining power will have been completely withdrawn from the earth. Revelation 19:15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. "God bears long with divine patience with the perversity of the wicked; but He declares that He will visit their transgressions with a rod. He will at last permit the destructive agencies of Satan to bear sway to destroy." E.G. White Bible Commentary, Vol.7a, 181. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Said the angel, "It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked. {EW 52} Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Yes it is but what about the statements that explain what the wrath of God is? what are we supposed to do with those statements which explain the statement you quoted? throw them away? disregard them like some are doing? sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Not at all, but realize that they are not all encompassing like you think, otherwise the other quotes would never have been made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 They are exactly that, encompassing, because these principles are the oracles of God and they teach us how to understand the language of Heaven. This is the school of Christ. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 So now you are running the school of Christ. Let us all look to sky, the school master, the oracle of God, the only one who can discern light from darkness. What arrogance! No thank you, I will let the Holy Spirit do the leading instead of the Spirit that is leading you to make these unseemly proclamations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 If we are led the Holy Spirit, we will not disregad one ray of heavenly light. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 If ever there was a man who walked among men and who was led by the Holy Spirit it was Jesus Christ. No one will deny that. And yet those who considered themselves the top religious leaders of the day denounced Him as being led by Belzebub, Satan!!! sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 You should think about that since you are claiming to be just that. The spiritual leader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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