Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[skyblue888]

Johh, we should not care what any man says for it is forever true that "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression but He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves to reap that which they have sown. The Spirit of God, peristently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan."

This is always true except that in the day of executive judgment, it will be Satan and his evil angels who will be in the position of being totally at the mercy of those whom they had deceived to their eternal ruin and these will turn against them with a vengeance, with the fury of demons!

I am sealed with this truth, intellectually and spiritually, so that I cannot be moved.

"God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression."

These words cannot be controverted. They are a transcription of the character of God and they are written indelibly upon the tablets of my heart and I will not be moved by what any man says to the contrary.

These words have been confirmed by other words such as "I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection." E.G. White, MR 14, 3.1

sky

[Guest]

In other words, it dosn't matter that your quotes are taken out of context. That's the truth as far as you're concerned, so there's no point listening to reason. That's what you want to believe. Period.

[phkrause]

Good question Lutz. I'd say it has to do with the Tree of Life, that would be taken away from them.

pk

[LifeHiscost]

Not just quote one particular text over and over again that we think says a certain thing.

In the Jewish spiritual economy, there was no such word as "or".

Therefor all the Word of God was written with the understanding of "this is so and that is so". Not "this is so or that is so".

Whenever the western mindset makes effort to use part of God's Word to disprove another part of God's Word, it is not a leading of the Holy Spirit. And whenever part of God's Word appears to be inconsistent with another portion of the Word, the inconsistency is in the mind of the purveyor or the recipient, and understanding will not become fully realized until both scriptures can be side by side without one destroying the evidence of God's love in the other.

"He who does not love does not know God, for God is love."1 John 4:8 NKJV

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever."Hebrews 13:8 NKJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Did you realize that Ellen White says that the angels of God had also planned to destroy Zoar but because of Lot's plea, it was not destroyed after all? See PP 161. That could not have happened if the cause of the destruction was a volcanic eruption.

Nor if the destruction were in other than God's sovereign rule. For if the destruction were completely under satan's control would satan have answered Lot's request in order to see that Lot and his loved ones were saved?

Blessings!

[pnattmbtc]

In other words, it doesn't matter that your quotes are taken out of context. That's the truth as far as you're concerned, so there's no point listening to reason. That's what you want to believe. Period.

[LifeHiscost]

so, for me, the bible makes a lot more sense when i read it as God warning me of what the devil has in store. God, through the bible and sop, is telling me to flee to Him for safety from satanic wrath.

Isn't it a wonderful thing when you know there is always a refuge within reach that is available without equivocated safety. Sounds like unconditional love, but so many of us are unwilling to give God unconditional access to our lives. Thus the contradictions in our experiences.

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”" Hebrews 13:5 NKJV

Important to recognize this is written especially for the one willing to believe that God means what He says.

"And they answered, Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ [ give yourself up to Him, take yourself out of your own keeping and entrust yourself into His keeping] and you will be saved, [and this applies both to] you and your household as well."Acts 16:31 AMP

Brackets parenthesis theirs LHC

Blessings!

[Guest]

sky, there's a very good book for sell at the ABC called, The Time of the End, A Study of the Last Days from the Word of God and the Spirit of Prophecy, 623 pages. It's complied by an SDA minister by the name of James L. Hayward, Sr. It contains a chapter entitled, "End of the World-- Sinners and Satan Destroyed." Like most of the book, it is filled with Ellen White quotes.

On page 438 of this book, it asks the question, Does God Destroy the Wicked?

Then it shows 6 quotes from Ellen White.

First the NO answer--

1) "God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself." COL 84.

Then the Yes answer:

1) "It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that cause the destruction or death of the wicked." -EW 52

Under NO. 2) God destroys no one. The sinner destroys himself. " 5 T 120.

Under YES. 2) "God will destroy the wicked from off the earth." PP 110.

Under NO. 3) "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner." GC 36.

Under YES. 3) "The wicked will He destroy... God executes justice upon the wicked." GC 541.

These sentences clearly convey contradictory meanings. The compiler has a solution, and he offers compelling evidence from the writings of Ellen White herself. He shows each statement in its full context.

The book contains this NOTE: "The above 'NO' and "YES' statements appear contradictory because they are not referring to the same events. In context the 'YES' statements refer to God's literal destruction of unrepentant sinner at the end of time. Also in context, the 'NO' statements refer not to man's final destruction, but to man's responsibility for the spiritual destruction of his own soul's salvation, and reaping in his lifetime the harvest of seeds he has sown. As such, the 'NO' statements must not be used (as some have) to support the theory that Gd does not destroy anyone."

Then the compiler gives all the quotes in their full context, and the evidence is (for me) conclusive that the compiler has drawn the correct conclusion.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

In other words, it doesn't matter that your quotes are taken out of context. That's the truth as far as you're concerned, so there's no point listening to reason. That's what you want to believe. Period.

It's not taken out of context.

Quote:

The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow. In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon His law....

Like Israel of old the wicked destroy themselves; they fall by their iniquity. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of His glory is to them a consuming fire. (GC 37)

This is referring to the second coming, not the final destruction. Again you are trying to apply it to what does not apply to.

[LifeHiscost]

if we are to take the bible as you say, we then have to reject the state of the dead, forever and ever, and take on predestination. that is just a couple of issues, not all.

Which would be logical if there were no inconsistencies with this point of view and others in the Scriptures. One problem we have is consistent with the difference between the western attitude in thinking as opposed to the Hebrew thought, ie:

and/or as opposed to and/and.

All Scripture is saying "God is Love", however our understanding is saying, "God really wouldn't do what this Scripture says, if He were a God of love."

The problems lie with our understanding, not with the Word. And the natural man will never see the Word as being consistent and without contradictions.

"These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one." 1 Corinthians 2:13-15 NKJV

"Marvel not [do not be surprised, astonished] at My telling you, You must all be born anew (from above)." John 3:7 AMP brackets parenthesis theirs LHC

There is a huge difference between religious effort to acquire holy living and holy destruction, and submission to Him Who is able to bring it to pass.

"Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: Behold, I will bring to pass My words....for good; and they will be accomplished before you on that day." Jeremiah 39:16 AMP

Blessings!

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

It's not taken out of context.

Quote:

The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow. In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon His law....

Like Israel of old the wicked destroy themselves; they fall by their iniquity. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of His glory is to them a consuming fire. (GC 37)

This is referring to the second coming, not the final destruction. Again you are trying to apply it to what does not apply to. [/quote']

She's speaking of a principle, which applies to both the coming of Christ, and the final judgment. The principles are the same for both events anyway.

Quote:

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. (GC 36)

Please notice the underlined statement. There's no way to exclude this from the final judgment.

[pnattmbtc]

Regarding that the principle that the destruction of the lost happens as a result of their reaping what they have sown (the principle spoken of in GC 36), the following makes this very clear:

Quote:

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)

[skyblue888]

Regarding that the principle that the destruction of the lost happens as a result of their reaping what they have sown (the principle spoken of in GC 36), the following makes this very clear:

Quote:

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)

Amen! :)

[John317]

Johh, we should not care what any man says

I think you're right. We should go by the Bible and by the Spirit of prophecy. And I'm sure you agree that we need to read and understand things in their context. In Hayward's book, The Time of the End, he simply shows the proper context of those sentences. There's a difference between accepting a man's word for something and looking at the evidence or reasoning he presents. In his case, Hayward shows that the statements aren't talking about the destruction of the wicked at the second coming or at the final judgment.

Quote:

for it is forever true that "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression but He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves to reap that which they have sown. The Spirit of God, peristently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan."

This is always true except that in the day of executive judgment, it will be Satan and his evil angels who will be in the position of being totally at the mercy of those whom they had deceived to their eternal ruin and these will turn against them with a vengeance, with the fury of demons!

The problem I have with this, sky, is that neither the Bible nor Ellen White tell us that Satan is destroyed by the wicked. Yes, the wicked want to destroy Satan and his evil angels, and they do turn on these supernatural beings, but neither she nor the Bible say that they are successful in destroying them. EW 294 indicates that as the wicked are trying to destroy Satan, "fire from God out of heaven is rained on them." This is how they are all consumed together. Ellen White does not say that the wicked all punish each other. "They were all punished according to the deeds done in the body." It seems contrary to both reason and revelation to think that the wicked mete our their own punishment by murdering one another. The amount of punishment is decided during the 1000 years after the lives of all the wicked have been closely examined by both Jesus and the saints. See EW 52-53, 290-291; GC 660, 661.

Quote:

These words have been confirmed by other words such as "I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection." E.G. White, MR 14, 3.1

Again, if you read this sentence in its context, it is clear that it's speaking of "judgments" that are occurring at this time, before the second coming. Of course it is true that "storms and tempests both by sea and land" are not directly from the Lord.

[John317]

She's speaking of a principle, which applies to both the coming of Christ, and the final judgment. The principles are the same for both events anyway.

Look closely at these quotes and read them in their contexts:

1) "God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself." COL 84. This line is comparable to the statement that the "destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice" (GC 543).

1) "It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that cause the destruction or death of the wicked." -EW 52 (Refers to the final destruction of the wicked.)

2) God destroys no one. The sinner destroys himself. " 5 T 120. (Compare Romans 2: 1-6 and Gal. 6: 7.)

2) "God will destroy the wicked from off the earth." PP 110.(Refers to the final destruction of the wicked.)

3) "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner." GC 36. (This is comparable to the statement that God does not seek to destroy but to save them-- nor to punish but to redeem them. MB 22; Luke 9: 56.)

3) "The wicked will He destroy... God executes justice upon the wicked." GC 541. (Refers to the final destruction of the wicked.)

These sentences clearly convey contradictory meanings. The only way to harmonize them is to understand them in their respective contexts, which show that they are referring to different events.

[Guest]

Amen

[pnattmbtc]

Again, if you read this sentence in its context, it is clear that it's speaking of "judgments" that are occurring at this time, before the second coming. Of course it is true that "storms and tempests both by sea and land" are not directly from the Lord.

1.The 14MR quote spoke of judgments which were yet future, and spoke of Satan's wrath having to do with knowing his time was short. It stands to reason, the close to Christ's Second Coming, the worse Satan's wrath, as his time is shorter.

2.Why is it "of course" true that "'storms and tempests both by sea and land' are not directly from the Lord."?

[pnattmbtc]

pnatt:She's speaking of a principle, which applies to both the coming of Christ, and the final judgment. The principles are the same for both events anyway.

J:Look closely at these quotes and read them in their contexts:

1) "God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself." COL 84. This line is comparable to the statement that the "destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice" (GC 543).

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Again, if you read this sentence in its context, it is clear that it's speaking of "judgments" that are occurring at this time, before the second coming. Of course it is true that "storms and tempests both by sea and land" are not directly from the Lord.

1.The 14MR quote spoke of judgments which were yet future, and spoke of Satan's wrath having to do with knowing his time was short.

Yes, "judgments"-- but notice not "THE judgment" that takes place after the 1000 years.

Quote:

2.Why is it "of course" true that "'storms and tempests both by sea and land' are not directly from the Lord."?

There's a difference between bad things that happen and the final judgment. Bad things can happen to anyone, including the righteous, but The Judgment is punishment against sin and impenitent sinners.

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

1.The 14MR quote spoke of judgments which were yet future, and spoke of Satan's wrath having to do with knowing his time was short.

Yes, "judgments"-- but notice not "THE judgment" that takes place after the 1000 years.

Quote:

2.Why is it "of course" true that "'storms and tempests both by sea and land' are not directly from the Lord."?

There's a difference between bad things that happen and the final judgment. Bad things can happen to anyone, including the righteous, but The Judgment is punishment against sin and impenitent sinners. [/quote']

1.I haven't applied 14MR 3 to the final judgment, just to the seven last plagues, although it doesn't really matter, since the principles are the same (i.e., the principles involved in the final judgment are the same principles involved in other instances where judgments fall).

2.GC 36-37 is not talking about bad things that can happen to anyone, but specifically to the punishment of sin and the guilty. E.g.

Quote:

The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. (GC 36)

I mentioned GC 36-37 because this is the quote I cited.

Anyway, I still don't understand why you said, "Of course it is true that 'storms and tempests both by sea and land' are not directly from the Lord." My impression has been that you believe God does all sorts of violent things, including burning people alive for many hours or days. Why would sending storms and tempests by sea and land not be something you would see God doing?

[Robert]

The wrath of God is giving the lost up to the result of their choice. (e.g. Romans 1, DA 764)

Correct....He finally removes Himself from those who have rejected their need Christ's righteousness. They have chosen to remain under law. Hence they will experience "the curse of the law" which is simply God's abandonment of those who have persistently rejected the gospel.

If one wishes to see what "the curse of the law" (the 2nd death) is all one needs to do is look at the cross. After all it was Ellen White that said, "The sacrifice of Christ as an atonement for sin is the great truth around which all other truths cluster. In order to be rightly understood and appreciated, every truth in the Word of God, from Genesis to Revelation, must be studied in the light that streams from the cross of Calvary." [Ev 190]

How does God deal with sin? Look to the cross where Christ took upon His assumed humanity “the curse of the law”? Did God actually have Christ nailed to a wooden cross or did He simply abandon Christ who, according to the NT, became sin who as God knew no sin? The latter:

Gal 4:4 “But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law….”

Because Christ, as God, united Himself to our fallen humanity He came under the curse of the law. You see the law condemns not only outward acts, but especially “indwelling sin”. After all the reason we sin is because we have “the law of sin” in our members, which is basically the love of self.

So because Christ assumed our humanity and became what He was not by divine right, He came under the curse. God’s wrath was placed upon Him. He experience “the wrath of God” and according to EGW “Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead….” Was Christ in abject fear of God? No! That’s why He said, “My God, my God why have you forsaken Me?”

You see Christ, because He had the limitations of fallen men, couldn’t see beyond the grave. So God’s abandoned of Christ (which technically started in the Garden of Gethsemane) meant that the hope of the resurrection was gone. This is the 2nd death!

Hence the rejectors of Christ’s righteousness will experience the same God abandonment. They will pray for God to be in their lives, but probation has close and they have rejected the life giver and now it's too late!

[Woody]

Quote:

Judgment is punishment against sin

Yes ... we have heard you repeatedly claim that we must be perfect. But some of us here believe in Salvation by Faith and not the legalism that you claim is Truth.

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

The wrath of God is giving the lost up to the result of their choice. (e.g. Romans 1, DA 764)

Correct....He finally removes Himself from those who have rejected their need Christ's righteousness. They have chosen to remain under law. Hence they will experience "the curse of the law" which is simply God's abandonment of those who have persistently rejected the gospel.

If one wishes to see what "the curse of the law" (the 2nd death) is all one needs to do is look at the cross. After all it was Ellen White that said, "The sacrifice of Christ as an atonement for sin is the great truth around which all other truths cluster. In order to be rightly understood and appreciated, every truth in the Word of God, from Genesis to Revelation, must be studied in the light that streams from the cross of Calvary." [Ev 190]

How does God deal with sin? Look to the cross where Christ took upon His assumed humanity “the curse of the law”? Did God actually have Christ nailed to a wooden cross or did He simply abandon Christ who, according to the NT, became sin who as God knew no sin? The latter:

Gal 4:4 “But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law….”

Because Christ, as God, united Himself to our fallen humanity He came under the curse of the law. You see the law condemns not only outward acts, but especially “indwelling sin”. After all the reason we sin is because we have “the law of sin” in our members, which is basically the love of self.

So because Christ assumed our humanity and became what He was not by divine right, He came under the curse. God’s wrath was placed upon Him. He experience “the wrath of God” and according to EGW “Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead….” Was Christ in abject fear of God? No! That’s why He said, “My God, my God why have you forsaken Me?”

You see Christ, because He had the limitations of fallen men, couldn’t see beyond the grave. So God’s abandoned of Christ (which technically started in the Garden of Gethsemane) meant that the hope of the resurrection was gone. This is the 2nd death!

Hence the rejectors of Christ’s righteousness will experience the same God abandonment. They will pray for God to be in their lives, but probation has close and they have rejected the life giver and now it's too late!

[Robert]

Also the connection to the cross, and the importance of understanding it.

[Guest]

Then the wicked saw what they had lost; and fire was breathed from God upon them and consumed them. This was the execution of the judgment. The wicked then received according as the saints, in unison with Jesus, had meted out to them during the one thousand years. The same fire from God that consumed the wicked purified the whole earth. {EW 54}