Dr. Rich Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 "Attempting to show, explain and argue facts to someone who based their belief upon faith is impossible." Rush Limbaugh,2009 Please, stop acting childish! Of course it said all except Noah and his wife and sons and their wives! This is just sillyness. It's no wonder people shy away from Adventists when they get some education behind them. I can't count all of the X-SDA pastors that I know of who left the SDA church because of sillyness like this! I was hoping for readers here who would be a little more kind to people who bring up issues like; "If God is so full of love, then why is He going to kill all of the people at the end of time?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman1228 Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 I don't understand why most who read these posts have such a difficult time taking Jesus Christ at His word. He is the one that said no one knew that a flood was coming (except, obviously, Noah and his family) so why work so hard to defend a position in opposition to what Jesus said unless you feel you have a personal stake in proving what He said is wrong. I can think of only one reason to do this and that is that if what Jesus said is right then what everyone that says different is wrong, and no one likes to think they (or a favorite writer) is wrong. Amos 3:7 is speaking of "His Servants the prophets", not everyone in the entire world, because if the world at that time was wholly evil then they are obviously NOT God's servants. As I stated in my previous response All flesh is clearly defined by God as the wicked and by God's words does not include Noah and his family. You are arguing with the wrong person when you argue with me as I am only pointing out what God has said in the O.T. and what Jesus said about Noah. If you do not agree that He meant what He said (in any regard) then you need to take it up with Him. However, I feel it necessary to point out that it is very often counterproductive (and sometimes fatal) to argue in opposition to what God has said. I just don't understand why it is so necessary to explain away what God has defined. Can someone please help me out with this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 John317, if people were all over the world at that time and there was no internet, tv or radio or other media, tell me how did Noah preach to everyone in the world? Good question....Never thought of that.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 23, 2009 Moderators Share Posted June 23, 2009 Can someone please help me out with this? Something tells me your good friend, "Dr. Rich," will no doubt be willing to help you. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich John317, if people were all over the world at that time and there was no internet, tv or radio or other media, tell me how did Noah preach to everyone in the world? Good question....Never thought of that.... I was wondering how one could presume to know the level of technology mankind had pre-flood? Mark :-) Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 23, 2009 Moderators Share Posted June 23, 2009 As the majority of scholars have discovered, 1st and 2nd Peter couldn't possible have been written by the disciple Peter because of how it is written and the content found in both books. This is the same conclusion I had to come up with when I did my exhastive research. Many books have been written about this subject so it is not just me saying this. It's true there are many questions about the origin of these books, and particularly second Peter. But it isn't true that "majority of scholars" per se believe these books "couldn't possibly have been written" by Peter. For one thing very few would be so bold as to say that "they couldn't possibly" have been written by Peter. Also, it should be understood that "the majority of scholars" is referring to "critical scholars," many of whom do not even believe in God, let alone in the Second Coming or in the resurrection of Christ. A visit to any large university library will reveal a good number of books on the topic written from the viewpoint of Bible-believing scholars who are convinced that the books were composed by the Apostle. The "Introduction to the Letters To All Christians" in the New Jerusalem Bible (Roman Catholic) is a good source of information on the view of many of the critical scholars regarding epistles of Peter. The reader will notice that scholars view the two letters quite differently. The bottom line is that we all need to study personally on our own and not reply on "critical scholars" or on people who do "exhaustive research" of a kind which leads them to believe & teach that the Apostle Paul is a fraud and that Ellen White may be the Jezebel of Rev. 2: 20. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 23, 2009 Moderators Share Posted June 23, 2009 Of course it said all except Noah and his wife and sons and their wives! But if it says "all except....", it is reasonable based on other information we have on the subject that God would have been willing to make other exceptions in addition to Noah if people had been repentant and believed the warning. Again, the passage says "ALL flesh" would be destroyed. But the context shows that the "all" has a limited meaning. Given what we know of God and how merciful He is, it makes sense that He would have offered people an opportunity to escape the judgment, as He did at Sodom and at Ninevah. God has a pattern of sending warning messages before judgment. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 23, 2009 Moderators Share Posted June 23, 2009 Are you assuming that ONLY Noah did the preaching? His family could have done some preaching too, as well as other believers who were laid to rest before the flood came. And as someone already mentioned, we don't know the level of technology that the antediluvians had. Keep in mind that ALL the major technological advances have come only within how long? Less than 300 YEARS. I have often wondered what a supergenius could do living 700-800 yrs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 23, 2009 Moderators Share Posted June 23, 2009 As the majority of scholars have discovered, 1st and 2nd Peter couldn't possible have been written by the disciple Peter because of how it is written and the content found in both books. This is the same conclusion I had to come up with when I did my exhastive research. Many books have been written about this subject so it is not just me saying this. Majority of scholars? You mean the skeptics of the last 200 years, don't you? The same "scholars" who propose 2 or 3 Isaiah authors. Same "scholars" who pooh poohs the authorship of Moses to the Pentateuch? Same "scholars" who date the book of Daniel to the 2nd c. BC? Peter identified himself as the author, 1 Pe 1:1; a witness to the sufferings of Christ, 5:1. Whom should I believe? These skeptical "scholars" who are writing 2000 yrs later? or the testimony of the likes of Irenaeus, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, who lived within 1-3 centuries from original autographs? "By the time of Eusebius (. A.D. 265-339) there was no question of its authenticity." ESV scholars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutz13 Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Quote: I have just re-read Gen.6 and 7 and do not see any reference that Noah preached to anyone. The only references to the people that were to go on the ark were to Noah, his wife, his sons, and their wives. Nowhere does it say that Noah said anything to anyone outside of his family. I also looked up the verse in which Jesus says that no one knew that the flood was coming. Here it is: As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Matt.24:37-39. Jesus does not lie, so that means that whoever said that Noah preached 120 years making the people of the earth aware of God's impending judgment are either liars or misunderstand what Scripture says, and are supplying their own interpretation. Having a personal belief that is based on faulty information is the same as believing a lie as if it is the truth; in other words your belief is based on your faith that your understanding is true even if that belief is unsubstantiated by the facts. In this case and by the very testimony of Jesus Christ Himself EGW is proven wrong about Noah preaching 120 years. Noah didn't preach because Jesus said no one knew the flood was coming. Is not God capable of giving EGW the correct information about what Noah did? Since God does not make mistakes in the information he gives to His servants (whether apostles or prophets), and since EGW claimed that God gave her the information about Noah then the god that gave EGW this information could not possibly be the God of the Kingdom of the Heavens. She must have been getting her information from the false god. If she is wrong about this what else is she wrong about? And what other information has this false god given her that is leading the servants of God astray? If our beliefs are built on faith instead of facts then it is easily possible to be fooled, something that Jesus warned his disciples about in Matt.24:4. The truth Jesus taught is fact, we do not need faith to believe it, we just need to learn the facts. If we can't trust the words of the Son of God then who's words can we trust? So you see a man building a giant boat upon land. You wouldn't wonder why? You don't think people would go up and ask. "Hey Noah, what in the heck are you doing?" You think he just kept pounding away on the hammer? I'm sure he told them what was going to happen and I am sure in their arrogance they laughed at him. Of course Noah preached while building. What people do is look for any tiny reason to throw out EGW. "OOOH NOAH PREACHING ISN'T in the BIBLE!!! FALSE FALSE!!" Seriously...Even without reading EGW, I would have just assumed he preached or told the people watching him what he was doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutz13 Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Quote: I was wondering how one could presume to know the level of technology mankind had pre-flood? I am always curious and wondering what kind of technology they had before the flood. I often think they would laugh at what we have today. Considering their scientist had perfect memory, and 900+ years to research whatever they want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Quote: I was wondering how one could presume to know the level of technology mankind had pre-flood? I am always curious and wondering what kind of technology they had before the flood. I often think they would laugh at what we have today. Considering their scientist had perfect memory, and 900+ years to research whatever they want. Ellen White stated somewhere that their art made ours pale in comparison. I would speculate their understanding of technology was also extremely high. When we consider the Sumerian building technology that the Egyptians would appear to have inherited, I think we can assume that they might have known a thing or two, as there was still a high degree of knowledge many generations after the flood... Mark :-) Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 23, 2009 Moderators Share Posted June 23, 2009 Yes, many Christians besides SDAs believe Noah preached to the people before the flood. I don't know of anyone who thinks God would have instructed Noah to be sure and keep the coming judgment a secret. If the people didn't "know" about it, it wasn't Noah's fault. People who ignore or reject the knowledge about the Investigative Judgment and the Second Coming will be the same way. They will be surprised and caught unprepared, not because they weren't told but because they didn't believe the warning. It's in that sense that the people didn't "know" what was happening until the flood came and swept them all away. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 If the people didn't "know" about it, it wasn't Noah's fault. No, it would be God's.... Remember it is said of the law, "where there is no law neither is there transgression." To condemn folks to death because they didn't know of the coming flood doesn't sound like the God I know....It leaves many questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted June 23, 2009 Administrators Share Posted June 23, 2009 Except that these people were all descended from Adam, who was faithful to God. He still had children who were faithful to God who lived for a loooonnnnggg time (as he did) to tell those stories about the Creation and the Fall of Man. I'm not sure that they were totally ignorant, unless they were willingly ignorant. Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Except that these people were all descended from Adam, who was faithful to God. He still had children who were faithful to God who lived for a loooonnnnggg time (as he did) to tell those stories about the Creation and the Fall of Man. I'm not sure that they were totally ignorant, unless they were willingly ignorant. What does that have to do with warning about the flood? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 24, 2009 Moderators Share Posted June 24, 2009 Originally Posted By: Gail Except that these people were all descended from Adam, who was faithful to God. He still had children who were faithful to God who lived for a loooonnnnggg time (as he did) to tell those stories about the Creation and the Fall of Man. I'm not sure that they were totally ignorant, unless they were willingly ignorant. What does that have to do with warning about the flood? Those people passed their probation because they persistently rejected spiritual light. For them it wasn't a matter of ignorance. Apparently they had heard the stories that Adam had told about the Fall and about God's promise of a Savior. They knew the difference between right and wrong, but they rejected that knowledge. The Bible shows the people living just before the SEcond Coming do the same thing. They finally reach a point where God can't help them any more. Those people living before the Flood were settled into rebellion and error, whereas Noah and his family were settled into the message God sent them about the only way of escape from destruction. All the preaching of Noah didn't do them any good but apparently only made them more determined to go their own evil ways. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert What does that have to do with warning about the flood? Apparently they had heard the stories that Adam had told about the Fall and about God's promise of a Savior.[/quote'] Speculation.... Quote: They knew the difference between right and wrong, but they rejected that knowledge. Speculation.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 And the traditional view presents a God who threatens sinners with death: "I'm God...I love you, now love me back or I'll drown you!" That's why I oppose the typical view of God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman1228 Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Where does it say that all the people that were killed by God in the flood descended from Adam? Gen. 1:26 says that God created MANKIND (look up the Hebrew word) on the 6th day of Creation. It doesn't say that God created Adam (and certainly not Eve) on the 6th day of creation week. How is it possible for a fully functional society with massive infrastructure (much less a sophisticated and accurate calendar) like the Mayan culture could be produced in less that 300 years following the creating of Adam and forming of Eve? Impossible. The nations were created on the 6th day of creation week. Satan got to them some time later and deceived them into believing that he was the creator. Multiple thousands of years later (which would give time for the great cultures of the pre-flood world to form) Adam and Eve were created (Gen. 2:4) by God as the Kingdom of the Heavens to bring the nations back to God by showing then who the real Creator was. They disobeyed God and gave the world wholly over to Satan. Even after they were ejected from Eden Adam and Eve and their offspring continued to tell the people of the earth about God, yet the nations rejected them and their message. This is why God felt it necessary to wipe out the entire world except for Noah and his family and start over. Noah did not preach a salvation message because the entire world was desperately wicked, completely. God saved what He could through Noah. The flood was the water cleansing (Laver) of the earth. The next cleansing will be accomplished by fire (Altar of Sacrifice). Both of these cleansings are punitive not redemptive. Jesus still told His disciples that NO ONE knew of the impending destruction of the people of the earth by flood. This is not cruel on the part of God, they earned it, it is well deserved justice. God always gives justice to everyone according to their works - Rev. 22:12: “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted June 24, 2009 Author Share Posted June 24, 2009 Nowhere does it say that Noah said anything to anyone outside of his family. I also looked up the verse in which Jesus says that no one knew that the flood was coming. Here it is: As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Matt.24:37-39. Jesus does not lie, so that means that whoever said that Noah preached 120 years making the people of the earth aware of God's impending judgment are either liars or misunderstand what Scripture says, and are supplying their own interpretation. In this case and by the very testimony of Jesus Christ Himself EGW is proven wrong about Noah preaching 120 years. Noah didn't preach because Jesus said no one knew the flood was coming. Is not God capable of giving EGW the correct information about what Noah did? Since God does not make mistakes in the information he gives to His servants (whether apostles or prophets), and since EGW claimed that God gave her the information about Noah then the god that gave EGW this information could not possibly be the God of the Kingdom of the Heavens. She must have been getting her information from the false god. If she is wrong about this what else is she wrong about? And what other information has this false god given her that is leading the servants of God astray? If our beliefs are built on faith instead of facts then it is easily possible to be fooled, something that Jesus warned his disciples about in Matt.24:4. The truth Jesus taught is fact, we do not need faith to believe it, we just need to learn the facts. If we can't trust the words of the Son of God then who's words can we trust? Pretty harsh statements, especially in light of what Peter the Apostle had to say. Do you accept his testimony as being of the Holy Spirit? The state of being unaware is not a result of a lack of preaching by those called of God to preach, but is a matter of discounting the words of Truth as being invalid when they are heard by those intent on avoiding the Truth. The same is true when the latter day messengers of God proclaim the Truth and it is vilified. "And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly..." 2 Peter 2:5 NKJV "....with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth..." 2 Thessalonians 2:10-13 KJV underlined mine LHC And that's New Covenant Truth "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever."Hebrews 13:8 NKJV "...Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper."2 Chronicles 20:20 KJV Regards! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 24, 2009 Moderators Share Posted June 24, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 Apparently they had heard the stories that Adam had told about the Fall and about God's promise of a Savior.[/quote'] Speculation.... Quote: They knew the difference between right and wrong, but they rejected that knowledge. Speculation.... Both the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy show these things to be true. Ellen White says it straight out. Do you think Adam was silent about his experience? Do you think God held those people accountable for doing evil if they had no idea what evil was? Gen. 6 makes it plain they knew they were doing evil but they kept it up. Read chapters 6 and 7 of PP, regarding Seth and Enoch and the Flood. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Both the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy show these things to be true. Show me from the Bible that the whole world was aware of the impending flood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 "And spared not the old world....And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion... Both these quotes (if you carefully read them) reveals that God abandoned the human race previous to the flood, but the traditional teaching is God did it.....Clearly Peter says, God "spared not"....the same language used elsewhere: - "He gave them over" and "He spared not His only Son".... When God is persistently and ultimately rejected He removes Himself because agape cannot force itself on others. What kills? The surrounding destruction - be it humans unjustly murdering Christ...or the devil bringing delusion upon unbelievers or the earth itself, because of sin, causing destruction (flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, earthquake). EGW makes a statement that more technology was lost in the flood then mankind has now. Makes sense because mankind was much more intelligent then. I think that's were the dinosaurs came from...i.e., mankind manipulating the genetic codes of different spices. Even the seven last plagues are man made. They will happen because of what sin has done to this world. They will happen because mankind is his own destroyer be it pollution, nuclear technology, etc....Hence God is holding back the winds of strife....He is active in the protection of the human race both from sin and itself. But let God be fully rejected and these things will be unleashed because when God removes Himself His protection goes also.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutz13 Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Quote: Where does it say that all the people that were killed by God in the flood descended from Adam? Gen. 1:26 says that God created MANKIND (look up the Hebrew word) on the 6th day of Creation. It doesn't say that God created Adam (and certainly not Eve) on the 6th day of creation week. How is it possible for a fully functional society with massive infrastructure (much less a sophisticated and accurate calendar) like the Mayan culture could be produced in less that 300 years following the creating of Adam and forming of Eve? Impossible. The nations were created on the 6th day of creation week. Satan got to them some time later and deceived them into believing that he was the creator. Multiple thousands of years later (which would give time for the great cultures of the pre-flood world to form) Adam and Eve were created (Gen. 2:4) by God as the Kingdom of the Heavens to bring the nations back to God by showing then who the real Creator was. They disobeyed God and gave the world wholly over to Satan. Even after they were ejected from Eden Adam and Eve and their offspring continued to tell the people of the earth about God, yet the nations rejected them and their message. This is why God felt it necessary to wipe out the entire world except for Noah and his family and start over. Noah did not preach a salvation message because the entire world was desperately wicked, completely. God saved what He could through Noah. The flood was the water cleansing (Laver) of the earth. The next cleansing will be accomplished by fire (Altar of Sacrifice). Both of these cleansings are punitive not redemptive. Jesus still told His disciples that NO ONE knew of the impending destruction of the people of the earth by flood. This is not cruel on the part of God, they earned it, it is well deserved justice. God always gives justice to everyone according to their works - Rev. 22:12: “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done." What? Try comparing scripture with scripture then come back and tell me you come to the same conclusion. "And so it is written, 'the first man Adam became a living being.' The last Adam became a life-giving spirit."(1 Corinthians 15:45) "And Adam called his wifes name Eve; because she was the mother of all living."(Genesis 3:20) "the son of Enosh, the son of seth, the son of Adam, the son of God."(Luke 3:38) Also, where does it say that no one knew of the impending doom? All it says is: "They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all."(Luke 17:27) The end of time will be like the days of Noah. There is a message being preached today that the world thinks is nothing but hogwash, so they eat, drink and marry. Ignoring what is coming their way, which will be reaped with their own hands. I'm not seeing where it says that "NO ONE" knew about it. I'm sure they heard it, they just chose to ignore it, much like today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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