Tower of Babel

[carolaa]

I guess we're not allowed to use quote boxes, or quotes of any kinds, in this forum.

[carolaa]

What is the basis for believing that Enoch wrote this book?

[nuff sed]

I was at what we think was Noah's wife's grave a few years ago.

It was for a person about nine feet tall.

[carolaa]

So are you saying Noah's wife was one of the Nephilim, or that she was descended from them?

[Tom Wetmore]

No worries about the enforcement of the one rule of this forum. ( It is at the top of the menu.) Take some time and read through the locked topic at the top of the topic menu for the Original Thoughts Forum. That will give you the reasons behind this forum. The idea is to think and express only ones own ideas in our own words.

Tom

[TWNolan]

oldsailor29... I want to thank you for your... interesting... point of view on the "Sons of God" and "Daughters of Men". I am wonder is: why are you in this forum?? Adventist do not acknowledge the book of Enoch as a valid book of the Bible. Shoot.. Most Protestants don't either.

[SivartM]

If he is an Adventist, and he does, then I guess some Adventists DO recognize that book as inspired.

I doubt its inspiration, but I'm open about it. It's worth considering even as a source of possibly-true Jewish tradition.

[oldsailor29]

TWNolan - My main reference is the book of Genesis. I was only using the book of Enoch as helpful for interpretation. Yes the fallen angels were created by God, and were therefore "Sons of God."

I was raised in the SDA church. We belong together. Just because my beliefs differ some from standard SDA beliefs does not mean I want to give up on trying to change that which is wrong. EGW said that our church is feeble and defective. To correct this I want all SDAs to start reading the quotations of Jesus.

I think the best way to do this is to go to the Bible on line and copy and paste the first 5 books of the NT and the first 3 chapters of Revelation to your word processor. Then go through and group all His quotes into categories. It doesn't matter which categories. Make up your own. Let the Holy Spirit lead you. The first time I did this, I used the seven elements of the ancient Suzerainty covenants as categories. I have started doing it again, and this time I am adding another category, "conversion," to my list of chapters.

And another reason I read and post on this forum is that I find a lot of misinformation distributed here. I add my little bits to help SDAs with our faith. it is very discouraging at times, but the Lord refreshes me, and i stay.

[Liz]

Just as a tag on, we knew these men a few years back, they were from the middle east, and I sure wish I could remember which country, but I can't. Anyways, they told us that in there country there was an ancient cemetary and the graves were all 10 to 11 feet long, because the people were all that tall. Wasn't Adam himself supposed to be 18 feet tall? So if he was that tall his descendants wouldn't be getting shorter over night, that would take generations too. Then after the flood you would have some that would be tall they would marry tall women and have tall kids, and some shorties doing the same thing.

Just like today, you have some really tall people, like the Zulu warriours and then you have the pygmies.

[oldsailor29]

The size of normal people from Adam through pre-history has nothing to do with the giants which were the children produced from the union of the sons of God and the daughters of man.

[Woody]

One is not allowed to go to references on this forum. Only 'original thoughts' are allowed. If one gets their thoughts from another source ... then the thoughts are not original.

[oldsailor29]

I know I have read that before, so it could not be original.

[Tom Wetmore]

MODERATOR POST -

Just to clarify, absolutely original ideas are not required, although strongly encouraged. (In fact, I am most delighted to hear something new and thought provoking...) However, the expression of any idea, even if from another source or even an old familiar topic, must be in your own words, expressed as your own original thoughts on the topic.

As a retired English professor, Alex could educate us on the fine art of using other sources without plagiarizing them. It requires some creative thought and writing. That is what I am after.

Tom

[Woody]

Thanks Tom. That helps.

[teresaq]

the book of enoch is part truth and part legend.

since we are told by Jesus that the angels neither marry nor are given in marriage-that was pretty much a quote - then we cant believe that the fallen angels mated with humans.

doing a search on "son(s)of God" tends to bear out that those who follow God are considered His children.

besides that believing extraterrestrials intermated with man tends to do away with the "great controversy" theme to a large degree it seems to me.

[abelisle]

Hi Tom et al,

I heard my name being bandied about. Not sure I can help you here. Discussions of religious ideas are always going to be precarious. The stumbling block for most Adventists in expressing their own ideas is the very strong omnipresence of the SOP. Even if they don't quote directly, their minds have been infused with EGW comments over the years.

To abide by Tom's one important rule, we can say things like, "I believe based on my Biblical studies that -________" or we can paraphrase important ideas/statements/quotes by simply putting them into our own words.

The antediluvian period has always been a fascination to me. When I asked Dr. Lawrence Geraty, a world renowned Adventist Biblical archeologist whether there was any archeological evidence that was clearly antediluvian in nature, his response was a simple "No."

I think the question should be asked if the Bible should be used for more than a moral code for living but rather as a scientific text? As for language, the very etymology of our word "babble" probably comes from "Babel" - a confusion of words. As for giants, I defer to anthropologists.

Alex

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I don't think it's necessarily true that angels could not mate with humans. They can take the form of humans. Why could they not *keep* that form and mate with human women?

[Outta Here]

That, up there, in that post a few posts before mine, makes more sense to me now. I thought it was a forum for original thought! Now I get it. It's a forum for original wording. Got it! Thanks for the clarification.

[teresaq]

well, rudywoofs, that would be a good question for the adventist spiritualists among us, since they believe angels to be "spirits" or immaterial. so does an immaterial being take on a material body?

as for me i choose to believe what i believe the bible/sop say. that the angels are material beings, that they are sexless as we will be. paraphrasing, they will neither marry nor have sex.

i cant believe God to be so cruel as to leave us sexual beings with no outlet for eternity.

i believe the angels to be in the same form as we are with detachable wings, but not of "flesh and blood". if they appeared in human form, and im sure their glory was "veiled", as was Jesus when He appeared to abraham, then it makes sense to me that they took off their wings.

the bible says in one place that flesh and blood can not inherit heaven, and in another that we will be "changed"...

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

who was it in the Bible who entertained angels unawares? The angels ate food. That seems to indicate a form of flesh and blood. But I could be wrong.

[cardw]

There are 6700 languages in the world along with possibly thousands of languages that have become extinct. This idea that these were created at the tower of babel is simply ridiculous. We can trace language trees geographically and see that there are separate hubs for language development all over the planet.

If there was a central source of separate language you would see a far different pattern of development and far more blended languages.

This is iron age reasoning to explain the world with the lack of scientific systems of inquiry.

[Tom Wetmore]

But only if you discount the possibility of a Original Language Maker that determined an effective way to get people to disperse and inhabit the whole earth would be to create multiple languages...

Once wide dispersion of the Tower builders according to common languages was accomplished then you would see the sub-language development from the hubs of which you speak. I don't think it a reasonable conclusion that the thousands of languages we see today were created at Babel. To break up that party it would only have needed a few separate languages.

[Stan]

I do suspect there were some details left out. What was it a two sentence comment?

[teresaq]

in reply to pam, i agree. the bible says flesh and blood cant inherit heaven, yet we know we will not be immaterial beings, i hope. im not sure how many adventists have more of the protestant understanding than what was the adventist view.

david either knew, or was inspired to record, the fact that angels do eat: Psa 78:24, 25.

so angels do have bodies, the same kind of bodies we will be transformed into, but we dont know what kind of bodies they have, but we do know we will eat.

paul points out the differences in flesh in man, birds, cows, fish, so that should help us understand maybe. 1Co 15:39 any meat eater could understand the point i think.

[cardw]

These hubs of language are too far apart to have come from a single source. We are talking about different continents, not regional migration. There are too many problems to take the tower of Babel seriously.