White Flight

[phkrause]

That's cool Kountzer, as I was reading along, I figured that that was going to be the end result.

pk

[Gerr]

Thanks for your thoughts. Very apropos.

[knockkneedchicke]

http://www.audioverse.org/displayrecording/1453/EricWalsh-WhoStoppedTheMovement/

Eric Walsh addresses this issue here.

Very Good.

[Woody]

First thing I do before listening to someone is to find out who they are and where they come from. This I tried to do on your link. But since I could not find out who this Eric Walsh is .... I become very suspicious. Perhaps this is only my issue. Maybe others can get past that and listen to the thoughts he has.

[Amelia]

*gp

So, could it be more of a worship style than a color issue?

[knockkneedchicke]

Eric Walsh is a Medical Doctor who is SDA. Audioverse is a site that has all SDA speakers who speak at AdventHope, GYC etc. SDA Pastors, Dr.'s, Evangelists, Lay People, Medical Missionaries etc., all found on audioverse.org

[phkrause]

Well knockkneedchicke, that was one of the best sermons I've ever heard. He basicly confirms what I said before, that without the Lord we will never fix this problem. As he grew up in connecticut, I grew up in NYC, I lived in mostly mixed neighborhoods my whole time growing up in the bronx. Went to a Jewish Adventist Church, that had as many blacks and hispanics as it did Jews after the church moved down to manhattan. We were the only church at the time to work for the Jewish people in NY, but never ever turned or told anyone to go to that church because of there color or nationality, etc. So we had a pretty colorful church. And actually most of the new Jews that we brought in would leave after awhile anyway. Than when all the original people had either moved or gotten to old to run the church in manhattan, and most of the members lived in co-op city, they moved the church there. Not sure whats happen to it anymore since my mom moved to florida about 18 years ago.

pk

[GreatLakesGramma]

I'm sure it depends on the group or individual whether it's color or worship style. Myself, I would leave a church where the worship style changed enough for me to feel uncomfortable with it, regardless of the reason for the change.

[knockkneedchicke]

When I lived in Florida I went to an all black SDA church because it was closest to my home. Ten miles more and there was an all white SDA church. I was the only white face in the choir. There were only 4 whites in that church, 3 of which were my family. Only one treated me differently because I was white but he was just a teenager anyway, and probably would always be bigoted. That was the best SDA church that I ever attended. As a matter of fact; the black preacher said in one of his sermons, "we have to stop blaming whites people for our problems." Got my attention. LOL

[phkrause]

I've heard Bill Cosby say that. I know that he is not that popular with his fellow black comedians, because he tells them they don't need to curse as they do to be funny.

pk

[fccool]

As a black Pastor who works for a "white" conference I would say that many white's have moved congregations and have not necessarily left the church. They may need to come back to Jesus but not necessarily to the churches they left. Many left for understandable reasons, some just left.

I will hold my prescriptions to allow whites who have left or know people who have left to give theirs first.

You nailed it... I've just recently found out that Adventists still have "black" and "white" conferences . It's kind of ironic for a multinational denomination. We can pretend that the issue does not exist, but it does.

But, to be fair... this is not Adventist issue alone.

[Kountzer]

This person was not the first missionary I've met like that. This person is probably # 8 or 9. The others were hispanic, and they usually come from a college in Argentina called river platte, or located at river platte. Other than the fact that he was not hispanic, he was like the others: they are all young college aged students at adventist colleges located in countries outside the USA.

DB

[GreatLakesGramma]

knockkneedchicke, when we lived in the Florida panhandle, there was only one church nearby, which was mostly white, but there was one retired black couple there. During the short time we lived there, we invited nearly every family, one at a time, to our home for Sabbath dinner. When we invited the black couple to come for our daughter's third birthday, they seemed a little surprised. But we had a good time visiting with them, and they gave her Arthur Spaulding's Golden Book of Bible Stories, which she still has, and now reads to her daughters. Later we found out that none of the other white church members had ever invited them to their homes, which is why they were surprised.

Our daughter and her husband attended a mostly black church for a while, and their oldest daughter was dedicated there, so we attended that day. Their service was no different than ours, and they were all friendly and welcoming. Their pastor was an older Eastern European, with an accent and tattooed numbers on his arm from a concentration camp.

When I was in college, before I was Adventist, I had a black roommate, & became acquainted with her friends, and I found that there were definite cultural differences. We got along just fine, though I had to take the guys' comments with some very large grains of salt. My boyfriend at that time was half Mestizo/half Lebanese, from Honduras, and through him I met a few other foreign students, mostly young Iranian Muslim men. Definitely cultural differences there, but they were nice, respectful guys.

Since I've been Adventist, I've had Asian and black friends within the church, and I've found that in spite of the cultural differences, being Adventist, we have more in common than different in the most important matters.

[Gerr]

*gp

So, could it be more of a worship style than a color issue?

Probably more like ALL of the above.

[Amelia]

A very sad state of affairs. Our country is 233 yrs old today and we are still all black this and white that; stereotyping all over the place. Will we have to wait for Jesus' return before we can truely be brothers and sisters?

[lazarus]

4. Black Adventist churches promote racism from the pulpit. I have seen this one over and over... It's a regurgitation of what you'll hear the NAACP preach. Whites just aren't into that message of 'pity us poor blacks'.

Careless generalizations like these don't help to advance the discussion.

[lazarus]

Since I've been Adventist, I've had Asian and black friends within the church, and I've found that in spite of the cultural differences, being Adventist, we have more in common than different in the most important matters.

Too often i've seen where tradition and cultural preference take precedence over the fact that we are Christians. In some cases, it certainly takes precedence over the fact that we are Adventist. Some folk are more concerned with maintaining tradition, upholding their preferred culture, promoting their politics than embracing brothers and sisters in Christ.

[Kountzer]

The sda church is ia microcosm and reflection of the overall society. To an extent anyway. If there is white flight and cultural bias in society, then to an extent you may see it at church. I don't think it is a problem. As long as the church is made of finite, imperfect people then the church will be the same.

[lazarus]

Here's some simple, NOT carefully considered, ideas:

Be intentional (i.e. discus, plan, set goals and evaluate) about tackling racism, prejudice, tradition and culture in our churches.

Pastors preach sermons on these topics,

Sabbath school and Youth leaders teach lessons covering these issue. We don't have to stick to the lesson each week.

Boards can develop plans as to how they can be be more welcoming to "others" and not place tradition and culture above scripture.

When selecting associate Senior/Associate Pastor's churches conferences need to plan for and promote diversity. Some Black SDA churches are "going against the grain" and employing White/Hispanic pastors to reach sections of the wider community.

The NAD should begin a dialogue about race culture and tradition in the North American Adventist church along the lines of Jan Paulsen's "let's talk". An unscripted televised series of discussions on Hope Channel would be interesting.

Unions should facilitate Pastor's dialogue on these issues.

White flight is not the problem, it's a symptom of a much larger problem.

[John317]

Hi Laz,

I think it would be great if people such as yourself would write articles and maybe give seminars for pastors and regular church members on what they can do to make the church more loving and racially forgiving and accepting.

We could use that kind of open dialogue. I think we're ready for it. I know the Holy Spirit wants it-- I mean more love & acceptance among all of us for each other. I think it starts with loving people who are prisoners of their racism and prejudice. Imagine how you can break down racial prejudice when you go up to people you know don't like your race and show them that you agape-love them anyway, because of Jesus. It's bound to make a difference, even if not immediately.

[Amelia]

*gp

Now I'm curious. When churches reach out and mission to their neighborhoods (not a revelation meeting etc), who do they target? Do they seek out the majority culture/color of their church; or to all cultures/colors? How effective are our churches in missioning to all cultures in our own country?

With Revelation seminars held in a church, how many of the converts stay in that church vs seeking out a same culture church? Does the church as a whole keep stats like this?

[carolaa]

Sabbath school and Youth leaders teach lessons covering these issue. We don't have to stick to the lesson each week.

You gotta be joking.

[phkrause]

Hey Lazarus did you check out the link by knockkneedchicke, it was very interesting. I'd like to know your acessment of the sermon by brother Walsh.

pk

[Kountzer]

Baptisms are miracles. churches, sda churches, are miracles. There is so much disinformation, so many different types of churches teaching different things. This can be found everywhere, the affluent suburbs, the inner city everywhere. Without God, the Holy Spirit, no church could exist. I doubt if the Lord would raise up a church based on white flight. Every so called white churches I've visited in this area has a sizable number of people of color worshipping there. I belonged to such a church myself, and never had a problem. Not racial problems anyway. I've never been to the Katy church, but I am sure there are people of color there also.

DB

[Ted Oplinger]

It goes like this, simply speaking:

There is a congregation.

Blacks enter the church. After a time the whites leave the church.

What you have left is a black church.

This has happened a LOT in our Eastern Canadian churches. Since I don't attend a church back East I have no idea how this works. But I know that it does.

Tagging in a little late, so please forgive me for beginning at the start, instead of tagging in at the later responses...

Such an experience is foreign to me, and to my church, Gail. Thankfully, we seem to side-step what happens elsewhere.

Here's the situation in my area. There's my church, then there is a "black" church across town, and another one just 20 miles south in the next town down the highway.

In my church, we have a very sizable contingent of African nationals who don't feel the need to worship every other weekend at the International church down in Houston, and a sizable number of African-Americans (many who were refugees from hurricane Katrina when it hit) who see no need to have their membership at either nearby "black" church.

The only whites leaving our church are for non-racial reasons - they graduate from Texas A&M, or they move cross-country to follow a job/family. If racism is present in my church, I haven't seen it nor heard it practiced.

That's simply a blessing from God. My thoughts - if we cannot love each other for what we are here and now, how can we say it will just "magically happen" when we all get there?

Suffice it to say I have learned that racism and bigotry do not belong solely to the whites...

Ted