White Flight

[lazarus]

"Careless"?

Indeed careless. It was the kindest word I could think of.

Careless: not giving sufficient attention or thought to avoiding harm or errors.

My simple challenge to you would be for you to post some information or data that proves that Black SDA churches promote racism from the pulpit.

I'm a pastor of a black church. Have you heard me preach something racist? I've preached in black churches in the North East of the US. I will be at an SDA church in Florida this weekend. I have many black SDA friends who are pastors who are not racists and do not preach racism. In fact their members would challenge such preaching.

You clearly know little of the the black membership in your own denomination.

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as long as you refuse to recognize that blacks are at least as racist as whites, your comments are of little value.

Post something that I have posted that indicates that I refuse to do that.

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You can pass over my observations as 'careless', but you can't negate, change or trivialize what I have seen and heard with my own senses.

Are you so arrogant as to extrapolate from your experience and say that Black SDA churches preach racism? My criticism was about your generalization not your experience.

[Key Guy]

4. Black Adventist churches promote racism from the pulpit. I have seen this one over and over... It's a regurgitation of what you'll hear the NAACP preach. Whites just aren't into that message of 'pity us poor blacks'.

[Kountzer]

Yuck!

Racist, pseudo christian brain sewage at its worst!

[lazarus]

I didn't say ALL black Adventist churches, but I did say that I have seen this over and over.

Let's look at this carefully.

If I said "white Adventist Pastors are racist". The implication is that most if not all White Adventist Pastors are racist. Suppose I have encountered 20 Adventist pastors and in my opinion 15 have been racist. I would be careless to assert that white Adventist pastors are racist since there are thousands of White Pastors. To make that generalization about them would be harmful and erroneous.

The fact that you now say that "I did not not say all" is a distinction with not much of a difference. You statement clearly implies all!!

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You have made statements here on the forum consistent with what I have heard black Adventist preachers say from the pulpit, so I will have to accept from your post that what YOU say here is not what YOU say from the pulpit.

I hope I'm in tune with my fellow Adventist preachers that is encouraging to me. Let me ask you again to post examples of the racist things that I've said on this forum.

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You see, blaming me and all the other whites in THIS generation for black slavery is outrageously offensive and racist... not to mention a tremendous lie. I will stand against any attempt to involve me in any form of guilt for something which occurred long before I was born and to which I am profoundly opposed.

Again post the quotes...as we shall see there are none. Stop making stuff up.

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I and everyone else that I know, do not owe anyone an apology for the sins of slavery nor do I owe anyone a dime for past inequities.

Again post the quotes......I have never ever said you should apologize. I fact I remember saying that YOU have nothing to apologize for. I have never advocated the payment of reparations. I guess as well as looking alike we sound alike too! LOL

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and they me. Thank God they aren't expecting me to prove how sorry I am that their ancestors were slaves. At least some of us Adventists refuse to wallow in that pit.

These expectations you speak of are from your own mind. You have no heard them from me. This pressure come from within.

Originally Posted By: you, Laz

If we follow the example of Christ, we don't see Him railing against the Romans.

One thing I don't do is rail!!

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I truly didn't want to step back into this subject that we rehashed (to no avail) some months ago, but you asked, no... challenged. I made my point. I'll let this rest... again.

Well clearly this was unfinished business. You may be still mad about some of the things I said. I don't feel I ever attacked you personally. I try not to do that. If I did attack you I'm sorry.

I do present a view sometimes that can be disturbing to some white folks on this board. When it comes from an Adventist Pastor it's taken especially hard. These are tough issues but I seek to be honest and constructive.

Are you letting it rest again until you find occasion to pick it up again? That's not healthy.

If you still had issues with things I have said it would have been better to PM me rather than turn this thread in a direction that it didn't need to go.

[oldsailor29]

Nothing makes a better impression than a smile.

http://www.last.fm/music/Joe+Tex/_/The+Love+You+Save+(May+Be+Your+Own)

[Stan]

One day, before Jesus comes, we will work out how to reach all the groups, rather than doing what we are doing.

[Neil D]

You see, blaming me and all the other whites in THIS generation for black slavery is outrageously offensive and racist... not to mention a tremendous lie. I will stand against any attempt to involve me in any form of guilt for something which occurred long before I was born and to which I am profoundly opposed.

I and everyone else that I know, do not owe anyone an apology for the sins of slavery nor do I owe anyone a dime for past inequities. As long as you and other preachers, teachers, civic leaders and self-promoted 'reverends' out there keep pushing this agenda, the kingdom will remain out of reach.

[lazarus]

make it plain brother, make it plain but you may be accused of leading a Pastor astray by posting a link to a secular artist. I'll try to put more smiles in my posts.

[Woody]

Not to long in the future .... the American White Man will be in the minority. Then it will be us who can claim pursecution. Actually .... we can already claim it with laws such as 'affirmative action'.

[oldsailor29]

Starvation and war among African tribes created the slave market. The slave ships were horrendous. Many died. Lots of hard work and little compensation awaited those who lived. Many years, people argued and fought against slavery. In the war, many gave their lives to free slaves. My ancestor was one of those. It seems unjust to me that all those white men, like my ancestor, who gave their lives to end slavery, are not respected and honored.

In my life, I have always worked for somebody else. My ratio of compensation was always very low compared to the company owner's. Living conditions are better, but it is still analogous to slavery. Most people are just like me, with no actual control over the way others are treated. And yet, we who are the slaves of this society are always hurt the most.

But just like slave owners, my employer gave me food and a place to live. God will sort things out in the end. Jesus said, "Inasmuch as ye have done unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

I agree with the teacher who said, "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil."

[lazarus]

Stan

Explain some more about that. Are you saying that the different ethnic groups(for want of a better word) meet separately in the afternoon? Are you talking about a single church?

[Stan]

They meet in the afternoon and it seems their friends from 'the old country' look forward to this..

It is a big city, and the parents generally go where their kids dictate we still want to have an out reach.

Working on a new one from Africa... mostly phd kind of folks or working on one. am sure the will have unity and fellowship until they get bigger, then it will split between west africa and east africa, then they will end up splitting more as they grow..

Would to discuss more, but not in an open forum.

The end result HAS to be about expanding the kingdom..

[lazarus]

I'm open for new ideas. We just started a French speaking SS class because we have a growing number of French speakers even though our services are in English. Just this morning I went to pick up some Portuguese Bible studies for lady in my church. I would love to make this work without all of us ultimately splitting into our mono-cultural churches. Let me know when you start a forum for this topic.

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: timewarp

You see, blaming me and all the other whites in THIS generation for black slavery is outrageously offensive and racist... not to mention a tremendous lie. I will stand against any attempt to involve me in any form of guilt for something which occurred long before I was born and to which I am profoundly opposed.

I and everyone else that I know, do not owe anyone an apology for the sins of slavery nor do I owe anyone a dime for past inequities. As long as you and other preachers, teachers, civic leaders and self-promoted 'reverends' out there keep pushing this agenda, the kingdom will remain out of reach.

Who are we?

Can you say, Timewarp, that you are currently what the past has made you? Does that include your forefathers? Surely, thier lives have influenced you...has it not?

For the black man, his past is the past of a greivious wrong. Many a black person lives in places that the average middle American, indeed WHITE american, is better than the black man.

I am not saying that with hard work,and perserverance, the American dream is out of the Black man's achievment..But I do believe that there is a ball and chain that affects him to this day.

Before you go off on me, and tell me that I am promoting the demise/dependance of the black man, I think you might concider that David in the bible sent 7 of Saul's "male relatives" to the Gebionites to be put to death, just for being a relative of Saul. They didn't deserve that, did they?

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After that, God answered prayer in behalf of the land.

See 2 Samuel 21. Therefore the sins of the Fathers will be born thru the sons as well.

Ummmm...Got to disagree with that last summation there, Neil.

That thought line was entirely refuted by God Himself in Ezekiel 18.

If you mean to say that the sins of the fathers produce consequences felt downstream in time by their descendants, that would be an accurate statement.

Thinking on your post, I would very much hesitate to respond to Timewarp as you did, perhaps for the very same reasons you listed for the blacks not achieving better. Perhaps the continuous assault on whites as being automatically racist is taking its toll over the last 40 years...the diversity beat just keeps going on, as if whites having their own culture and worldview is a sin to be avoided like the plague.

That's the only "pouncing" you'll get from me.

Neil, in the following, I am simply using your post as a launch board for some thoughts which coalesced in my mind over the last few posts. It's not directed at you personally.

From my perspective, the biggest problem facing the blacks today isn't the "subtly racist white system" keeping the black man down; it is the fact that the blacks have many so-called leaders that keep their own in a psychological slavery. That is where the majority of the "ball and chain" seems to exist. Many black leaders simply don't give their people permission to forgive whites of the past, and get on living as race neutral as possible. All that is wrong with them HAS to be ol' Whitey's fault.

Before I am pounced upon, let me offer this: It is an established fact that people groups from all over the world - especially African nationals - come to the US with nothing, and within a few years are living as well or better than the average white middle class person.

They experience, as a whole, very little of what the African-American says is so very pervasive.

Why?

I will also counter that Israel was in slavery in Egypt for longer than slavery was an institution in the US, yet the Jews didn't - and don't - hold a slavery "grudge".

Likewise the Northern and Eastern Europeans - these white population groups were subject to enslavement by the Romans and others for several centuries...the ethnic word "slav" means "slave", and is where the English gets that word.

It also took these white groups a very short time (compared to the rest of the world) to get sick of man's predilection to enslave one another, and American whites (mostly from the Northern and Eastern European descent)had a Civil War with this as one of the issues. No other people group on earth has gone to quite this extent on the slavery issue in over 3000 years. Certainly not Africans themselves.

Why?

Until the issue is taken out of the "Whites only" context, and broadened to a moral issue arising out of the heart of sinful humanity regardless of race or culture, only then will any progress begin. EVERY culture, race, and tribe has the sin of bigotry toward others within it, not just the whites. To say otherwise is to me being very disingenuous.

Take a hard look at the famous Congressional Black Caucus - a classic definition of racist, in that it won't allow a non-black representing a majority black district into their delegation.

It's OK for blacks and hispanics to form little groups, even SDA churches, of their own, for whatever reason, yet when whites do the very same for the same reasons, it's the sin of racism and prejudice rearing its head due to lack of "diversity" among the whites?

A double standard? let the reader judge...

To focus only on the whites, while ignoring the sins of bigotry endemic to other groups, only adds to the resentments on all sides - particularly when some people think it's a great idea to reverse the discrimination in a blanket fashion in the name of "social justice". Perhaps one might think that's where Timewarp's response has its root?

False accusation is as bad as blanket stereotyping.

Christ was no respecter of color on any issue; neither should we make color (or anything else) a issue, no matter how intellectual we can make it seem. Christ wants us to be concerned about the content of each other's character.

On the personal note, I have endured a number of "social justice" events in my life, even though none of my anscestors on both sides participated in the slave trade for at least the last 250 years I have discerned to this point. Many were abolitionist when abolition wasn't cool, and some fought in the Civil War against slavery.

Yet, reading your post, I get the idea you think I must be guilty and deserved those "social justice" events...because I am white (and male, to boot) - even though my family history is quite lacking in condemning evidence. I must be understanding and accepting of such things, lest I be cast into the stereotype of ignorant, knuckle-dragging Southern White Racist Male.

Why should I accept that form of thinking?

It is that form of thought which has some whites leaving diverse areas. They're tired of having it endlessly repeated how deserving they are of "affirmative actions", simply for the "crime" of having white skin color.

Instead, I will call these "social justice" events the consequences of sin from people on all sides who keep passing those sins of devaluation, degradation, envy, and revenge down from generation to generation. Never learning to break the sin cycle, they instead participate in it and call their side "righteous".

Martin Luther King, Jr., had it right. Sadly, 40 years after his death, even those of his own still want to judge others not by the content of their character, but by the color of their skin.

Participation of which is by whites, blacks, and every color in between.

Much food for thought...

I go now to buff and polish the callouses on my knuckles...

Ted

[lazarus]

It's kinda funny how some white folk now assume the role of victim when it comes to these issues rather than engaging in a healthy discussion.

[Bravus]

Haven't read the whole thread, and just glancing over this last page makes me glad I haven't.

But one quick comment on the initial question: isn't it a misidentification of the problem? Isn't it 'cultural flight'?

It's not about race, it's about a different worship style. Well, I've been in a couple of all-white churches that have effectively split over worship style, with some wanting to go contemporary and some to stay traditional. Regardless of which way that congregation goes, some people feel they no longer fit in there and move on to another church.

So, the me, perhaps race is an overlay on the question that is unfortunate and unhelpful. Perhaps if we recognise that it's about culture and style we can find accommodations, like the church I attended that had two services in different styles.

(I guess if that happened and one service was majority-black and the other majority-white that might still be noticed and commented on, but still, it might be a healthier and better framing of the issue.)

[lazarus]

I do understand your point well but in my previous church where I was the only black Pastor out of five there was no change in worship style but there was still "flight".

The Organ was played every week, hymns only, no backing tracks. There were regular classical concerts. An Orchestra at Easter and Christmas. There were some different foods at potluck, there was an International Sabbath once a year. Sabbath school was the same as it always had been. The traditions of the church hadn't changed much from perhaps 100 years.

The biggest change was that more and more people of color attending. Even now the worship style is the most traditional in the area. It is now almost all black. I'm not saying that race is the only factor but it is clearly significant in some instances.

I guess that if a bunch of white folk started attending a black church there might be in that church flight too.

[Kountzer]

I attend a region conference church. People at my church are too busy lifting up Jesus to worry about white flight, or most of the other issues brought up. There are quite a few well educated professionals in attendance, african americans at that. Oakwood alums, SWAu alums, etc. A member of the congreessional black caucus is a member as well. A lot of young people, equipped with the God given mindset that 'i can do all things...' Just the same, What good is being concerned with socio economic status if your status in the world to come is not secured? There are a number of non black members, and visitors, now that I think about it. Until this post, it never really mattered. After this thread, and others like it from the past, it still doesn't matter.

I am thankful for the perfect judge, Jesus Christ, who knows all, knows who did what to whom, knows who was a slave, and a slave owner, and He knows all those that are still slaves, to sin, and He is and will judge accordingly. IMO everything else is a lot of noise.

[carolaa]

like the church I attended that had two services in different styles.

I wish I could be in a church that would agree to have two services. I've never yet seen (firsthand) either side be willing to give up the holy and sacred 11:00 hour.

[Woody]

You are right about that one carolaa. Only the lower class would accept anything other than the holy 11:00 hour.

Ha Ha Ha Ho Ho Ho He He He to put it dgrimm's way.

[phkrause]

Off Topic Lazarus, but was wondering what church in Florida? I will be there visiting my mom, at the debarry-orange city sda church. Back to topic.

pk

[Ted Oplinger]

It's kinda funny how some white folk now assume the role of victim when it comes to these issues rather than engaging in a healthy discussion.

Lazarus,

"White folk" assuming the role of victim? Incredible.

It appears the you would rather dodge with rhetoric than engage in healthy discussion.

Is that really the best you have to offer toward engaging in "healthy discussion"? Telling "white folk" they have no business engaging the issue as a human race issue, rather than just a mere "white folk" thing? As if America is the only nation and people who've had to grapple with that issue? As if African-Americans were the only people with a history of such treatment?

Talk about limiting/shutting down earnest discussion.

And certain political types wonder why there's no real engagement and discussion beyond the hype and political rhetoric. So long as people keep putting a skin color on the issue and buy into the world's generally accepted premises put forth by the world, there can't be any progress.

I look forward to the day in the earth made new, when we can resume this discussion.

Until then,

[lazarus]

Off Topic Lazarus, but was wondering what church in Florida? I will be there visiting my mom, at the debarry-orange city sda church. Back to topic.

pk

Pompono Beach SDA, doing a wedding there. My knowledge of Florida is minimal. I don't if it's anyway near where you are going.

[lazarus]

"White folk" assuming the role of victim? Incredible.

Very simply, I have often heard white folk claim that the problem now is that they are the ones are getting the raw end. They are victims of reverse racism. Of course it happens but it is sometimes way of not dealing with issues by saying well, "we get discriminated against now" so it's "even stevens"

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It appears the you would rather dodge with rhetoric than engage in healthy discussion.

If you look at what I've posted before that is not sustainable.

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Telling "white folk" they have no business engaging the issue as a human race issue

Wow, that was a quantum leap! that was how you received it but not what was said or implied.

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As if African-Americans were the only people with a history of such treatment?

I know that. I'm not African American.

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So long as people keep putting a skin color on the issue and buy into the world's generally accepted premises put forth by the world, there can't be any progress.

The topic of this thread is *white* flight. I didn't start the thread. I guess it could have just been called "flight".

[Kountzer]

Why all this hot air on this board about what african americans need to do, when there is only one AA here: me. There's a reason for that I'm sure. I have never brought up the issue of slavery, reparations, none of that. If you have such great soloutions Ted, then set up a seminar, or lecture series. I'd drive to Bryan to hear and see if you man enough to do it. Personally I think you're just another clown with a cyber white sheet over your head.