When Christ's character shall be perfectly reproduced in his people...

[Gail]

You know the quote I'm talking about... Could someone please find it for me?

It talks about that Christ will come only after His character is perfectly reproduced in His people.

He's been waiting a long time...

What do you think of this quote?

[John317]

Here's the quote but it doesn't say anything about a majority in the church.

"When the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come." Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own.Christ's Object Lessons (1900), page 69, paragraph 1; Chapter Title: "First the Blade, Then the Ear"

[Gail]

Thanks, John317!

So...

What's left to do?

[John317]

Next paragraph--

It is the privilege of every Christian not only to look for but to hasten the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, (2 Peter 3:12, margin). Were all who profess His name bearing fruit to His glory, how quickly the whole world would be sown with the seed of the gospel. Quickly the last great harvest would be ripened, and Christ would come to gather the precious grain.

And this:

Says the prophet: "Who may abide the day of His coming? and who shall stand when He appeareth? for He is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: and He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and He shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness." Malachi 3:2, 3. Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil. While the investigative judgment is going forward in heaven, while the sins of penitent believers are being removed from the sanctuary, there is to be a special work of purification, of putting away of sin, among God's people upon earth. This work is more clearly presented in the messages of Revelation 14.

When this work shall have been accomplished, the followers of Christ will be ready for His appearing. "Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the Lord, as in the days of old, and as in former years." Malachi 3:4. Then the church which our Lord at His coming is to receive to Himself will be a "glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing." Ephesians 5:27. Then she will look "forth as the morning, fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners." Song of Solomon 6:10. GC 425

[Gail]

Okay, so now how do YOU take that? Do you know anyone who is there?

What is this character perfectly reproduced? Is it the best vegetarian? :)

[Robert]

Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling.

Legalism!!!

[Woody]

Okay, so now how do YOU take that? Do you know anyone who is there?

What is this character perfectly reproduced? Is it the best vegetarian?

TU This one gets my thumbs up award.

[John317]

This coming is foretold also by the prophet Malachi: "The Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to His temple, even the Messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, He shall come, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 3:1. The coming of the Lord to His temple was sudden, unexpected, to His people. They were not looking for Him there. They expected Him to come to earth, "in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel." 2 Thessalonians 1:8.

But the people were not yet ready to meet their Lord. There was still a work of preparation to be accomplished for them. Light was to be given, directing their minds to the temple of God in heaven; and as they should by faith follow their High Priest in His ministration there, new duties would be revealed. Another message of warning and instruction was to be given to the church.

...... It is those who by faith follow Jesus in the great work of the atonement who receive the benefits of His mediation in their behalf, while those who reject the light which brings to view this work of ministration are not benefited thereby. The Jews who rejected the light given at Christ's first advent, and refused to believe on Him as the Saviour of the world, could not receive pardon through Him. When Jesus at His ascension entered by His own blood into the heavenly sanctuary to shed upon His disciples the blessings of His mediation, the Jews were left in total darkness to continue their useless sacrifices and offerings. The ministration of types and shadows had ceased. That door by which men had formerly found access to God was no longer open. The Jews had refused to seek Him in the only way whereby He could then be found, through the ministration in the sanctuary in heaven. Therefore they found no communion with God. To them the door was shut. They had no knowledge of Christ as the true sacrifice and the only mediator before God; hence they could not receive the benefits of His mediation.

The condition of the unbelieving Jews illustrates the condition of the careless and unbelieving among professed Christians, who are willingly ignorant of the work of our merciful High Priest. In the typical service, when the high priest

entered the most holy place, all Israel were required to gather about the sanctuary and in the most solemn manner humble their souls before God, that they might receive the pardon of their sins and not be cut off from the congregation. How much more essential in this antitypical Day of Atonement that we understand the work of our High Priest and know what duties are required of us.

Men cannot with impunity reject the warning which God in mercy sends them. A message was sent from heaven to the world in Noah's day, and their salvation depended upon the manner in which they treated that message. Because they rejected the warning, the Spirit of God was withdrawn from the sinful race, and they perished in the waters of the Flood. In the time of Abraham, mercy ceased to plead with the guilty inhabitants of Sodom, and all but Lot with his wife and two daughters were consumed by the fire sent down from heaven. So in the days of Christ. The Son of God declared to the unbelieving Jews of that generation: "Your house is left unto you desolate." Matthew 23:38. Looking down to the last days, the same Infinite Power declares, concerning those who "received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved": "For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12. As they reject the teachings of His word, God withdraws His Spirit and leaves them to the deceptions which they love. GC 424, 425, 430, 431

[John317]

God sent messages to the church that the church is still in rebellion against: the Message of 1888, the Investigative Judgment, the Spirit of Prophecy, and yes, the Bible. Our church has not yet accepted the Three Angels Messages. We can't very well give to our neighbors something we ourselves don't believe in or accept or practice. He's waiting for a generation that will go all the way with Him without reservation, willing to die for Him, willing to do whatever He commands.

[Musicman1228]

John317,

Malachi 3:1 does say that the Lord would come to His temple suddenly. And as the early Advent people found out (the hard way) that in this case the temple was not the earth.

Jesus Christ will come as a thief in the night to the Kingdom of Heaven at a time when the majority of the Kingdom is sound asleep.

Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you.  Rev.3:3.

Now while the bridegroom delayed, they all slumbered and slept. Matt.25:5.

[Please note: EGW says that 5 went to sleep and 5 became drowsy but didn't go to sleep. Does this match what Jesus said?]

How can the character of Jesus be perfectly reproduced in His people when the are not awake to learn what that character is?

When Jesus comes to His Kingdom it is sound asleep. A small group of people ARE awake at that time because they are the ones that go to the sleeping Kingdom and say:

But at midnight there was a shout, 'Look, the bridegroom is here! Come out to meet him.' Matt.25:6.

It doesn't say that the bridegroom is about to come, or will come someday. Jesus says that the cry given at midnight is that the bridegroom is here right now so come out to meet Him. Therefore the midnight cry can not have been made yet as we know for sure that the bridegroom has not yet come. And this coming cannot be the coming in the clouds because that will not be "as a thief" when only a small number of His servants will see Him (the 144,000), but when everyone will see Him. If it is the Second Coming then God's Kingdom will have slept right through it.

So what is Jesus waiting for by not coming as a thief before now? If He is waiting for His character to be reproduced in His people before He comes then according to modern Christianity (and I see a lot of this type of Christianity on the site) He will NEVER be able to come because NO ONE can EVER reproduce the absolutely sinless character of Jesus Christ. Becoming sinless is (according to current belief even in the SDA church) impossible.

Could it be, John317, that in order to begin to reproduce the character of Jesus Christ those who are in His Kingdom today (and I believe that His Kingdom is the SDA church) will have to change the way they view some of the closely held beliefs that you mentioned, such as; the 1888 Message, Investigative Judgment, the Spirit of Prophecy, and yes, the Bible?

What it is that we as a church believe to be true right now has obviously not accomplished what we all desire with all our hearts, and that is the return of our King. The best definition of insanity that I have heard is this: doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results.

As a denomination we have not achieved the character of Jesus Christ. Isn't it time we honestly and openly reassess what it is that we are committed too? Because if what we are fully committed too IS NOT THE TRUTH then we can only expect the same results that we are now seeing within our church, which is slumber.

[John, if God is supporting the SDA church with His full power because we believe and practice the Truth then why are we so small in number in comparison to world wide Christianity? Our rate of growth based on whether we have the truth or not (since 1865 when our church was incorporated) would suggest to me that the message that we are taking to the world IS NOT the message that God wants us to take. As a church we claim to have the Truth and we claim to be doing the will of God but the numbers just don't support it. If we were actually doing the will of God don't you think that after over 140 years we would be in Heaven already?]

[John317]

Now while the bridegroom delayed, they all slumbered and slept. Matt.25:5.

[Please note: EGW says that 5 went to sleep and 5 became drowsy but didn't go to sleep. Does this match what Jesus said?]

Could you please give reference for this?

Below are statements by Ellen White regarding the ten young women, which do not appear to conflict with what Jesus said:

".... While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him." {GC 393.3}

"While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept." ..... "They all slumbered and slept;" {GC 394.1}

"While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps." Matthew 25:5-7. {GC 398.3}

Lingering near the bride's house are ten young women robed in white. Each carries a lighted lamp and a small flagon for oil. All are anxiously watching for the appearance of the bridegroom. But there is a delay. Hour after hour passes; the watchers become weary and fall asleep. At midnight the cry is heard, "Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him." The sleepers, suddenly awaking, spring to their feet. They see the procession moving on, bright with torches and glad with music. They hear the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride.

Reflecting Christ (1985), page 209, paragraph 4

Chapter Title: The Ten Virgins Represent the Church (See also COL 405, 406)

[John317]

Could it be, John317, that in order to begin to reproduce the character of Jesus Christ those who are in His Kingdom today (and I believe that His Kingdom is the SDA church) will have to change the way they view some of the closely held beliefs that you mentioned, such as; the 1888 Message, Investigative Judgment, the Spirit of Prophecy, and yes, the Bible?

Can you tell us briefly how (in order to reproduce the character of Jesus) you believe we need to view

the 1888 Message,

the Investigative Judgment,

the Spirit of Prophecy,

and the Bible?

[Gail]

Thanks for the question, John317.

Connected with those is my question:

How are we to view the subject of perfection? Is our idea the same as God's?

I believe that delving into John's question about those four subjects will also give us insight as to the subject of perfection, especially as it relates to the time just before the coming of Christ.

[Dr. Rich]

John317, please read what the "Clear Word Bible" states about the ten virgins. None of them have anything about young women lingering around the bride or all of them haveing flasks of oil.

And most of my bibles say that the midnight cry said that the groom was here, (already) to wake up and go meet him. And, nowhere is there any mention of the bride.

Question: Why did the Groom delay if all that is needed is love, grace, righteousness by faith and a personal relationship with Christ?

[John317]

J

What it is that we as a church believe to be true right now has obviously not accomplished what we all desire with all our hearts, and that is the return of our King. The best definition of insanity that I have heard is this: doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results.

As a denomination we have not achieved the character of Jesus Christ. Isn't it time we honestly and openly reassess what it is that we are committed too? Because if what we are fully committed too IS NOT THE TRUTH then we can only expect the same results that we are now seeing within our church, which is slumber.

I submit that as a church we've never accepted and practiced the Third Angels Messages.

Have we-- as a church and as individuals-- done what the following paragraph by Ellen White teaches? Are we putting away sin? Are we following Christ in His work in the heavenly sanctuary and allowing His Spirit to reveal "new duties" required of us? Do we allow the Holy Spirit complete control of our lives or do we resist some light that God sends to us through the Bible (including the inspired letters of Paul) and the Spirit of Prophecy?

Quote:

Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil. While the investigative judgment is going forward in heaven, while the sins of penitent believers are being removed from the sanctuary, there is to be a special work of purification, of putting away of sin, among God's people upon earth. This work is more clearly presented in the messages of Revelation 14.

When this work shall have been accomplished, the followers of Christ will be ready for His appearing. "Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the Lord, as in the days of old, and as in former years." Malachi 3:4. Then the church which our Lord at His coming is to receive to Himself will be a "glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing." Ephesians 5:27. Then she will look "forth as the morning, fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners." Song of Solomon 6:10. GC 425

There are voices in our church that call the above words, "Heresy," and "error," and who say that no one can keep the commandments of God even with the Holy Spirit in the life. There is outright rebellion in the church against the Spirit of Prophecy, just as the children of Israel were in rebellion against God and His prophet Moses while on the borders of the Promised Land, causing them to have to delay going across the Jordan. It seems to me that as a church we're doing the same thing that those people did back then. We're expecting God to take across but we're unwilling to fulfill the conditions.

This is exactly the message of Hebrews 3: 12 to 4: 10. Verse 17 says, "Now with whom was He angry forty years (we might say 150 years)? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness?" God redeemed them from Egyptian slavery but they never made it into the Promised Land, because they rebelled and refused to obey God and God's prophet. See Numbers 21: 5, 6; 1 Cor. 10: 9.

[Tom Wetmore]

I think we drifted a bit far from what EGW was talking about in the quote from COL.

Gail, the answer to your question is right close by that oft quoted but frequently misconstrued sentence.

That quote appears at the end of the chapter, which means that one should carefully read that whole chapter to get an idea from the immediate context exactly what a perfect reproduction of Christ's character would be like. I think you may be pleasantly surprised.

The chapter is talking about the parable of the sower. EGW spends a majority of her words in that chapter setting up the process of growth of the plant to maturity. She correctly points out Who makes it happen and the extent of the contribution of the sower and the seed to the final result.

The harvest happens when the reaper can see the ripe fruit. It is based on this ripe fruit ready for harvest metaphor that EGW makes the quote in question. But it is in the immediately preceding two short paragraphs that she clearly states exactly what that perfectly reproduced character of Christ is and what that ripe fruit of His character really looks like.

Here are the two paragraphs:

Quote:

There can be no growth or fruitfulness in the life that is centered in self. If you have accepted Christ as a personal Saviour, you are to forget yourself, and try to help others. Talk of the love of Christ, tell of His goodness. Do every duty that presents itself. Carry the burden of souls upon your heart, and by every means in your power seek to save the lost. As you receive the Spirit of Christ--the Spirit of unselfish love and labor for others--you will grow and bring forth fruit. The graces of the Spirit will ripen in your character. Your faith will increase, your convictions deepen, your love be made perfect. More and more you will reflect the likeness of Christ in all that is pure, noble, and lovely.

"The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance." Galatians 5:22, 23. This fruit can never perish, but will produce after its kind a harvest unto eternal life. - COL 68-69.

Let's not make it any more complicated than she meant it to be. Jesus said it ever so simply - "People will know that you are my followers by your love for one another." The sweet smell of ripe fruit is hard to hide.

Tom

[BobRyan]

The key to making it past (and surviving) the Rev 15 hour where the sins in the sanctuary are no longer being "processed/mediated" by our High Priest, is to receive the Latter Rain (this is part of the Rev 18 "Loud cry" - but is not the "Midnight cry" that was given in the summer of 1844).

And the key to receiving the Latter Rain is to be putting away sin NOW. To appeal to God NOW to be sealed in Christ through the work of the Holy Spirit. The fact that our cooperation with the Holy Spirit invovles "performing every known duty" as Tom as quoted above - is valid, but so also is every aspect of this conformity to the known/revealed will of God. Hint - sinning is violating a "known duty". It is transgressing what you know about the will of God "His Word... His Law".

Lot's of people are being deceived on this point.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gail]

By Jove, Tom- I think you've GOT IT!!!

God is interested in our hearts, the work that has to be done is heart work. There is no way we can do that for ourselves.

[John317]

John317, please read what the "Clear Word Bible" states about the ten virgins. None of them have anything about young women lingering around the bride or all of them haveing flasks of oil.

And most of my bibles say that the midnight cry said that the groom was here, (already) to wake up and go meet him. And, nowhere is there any mention of the bride.

Yes, Ellen White does give details that are not in Matt. 25. That's to be expected. The writers of the Gospels sometimes also added details that another writer hadn't mentioned.

A comparison of Matt. 25: 6 & 10 indicates there was a call made that the bridegroom was in the process of coming, but then in verse 10, the bridegroom actually arrives before the foolish virgins had time to return from buying oil.

In verse 6, the Majority Text reads, "is coming," which is technically correct, since verse 10 gives us the point at which the bridegroom actually is present.

It's interesting that there's a very strong combination of Western and Caesarean texts which read "and the bride" at verse 1.

[John317]

Thanks for the question, John317.

Connected with those is my question:

How are we to view the subject of perfection? Is our idea the same as God's?

I believe that delving into John's question about those four subjects will also give us insight as to the subject of perfection, especially as it relates to the time just before the coming of Christ.

I think it's a matter of being perfectly surrendered to the will of God. God isn't looking for people who are absolutely sinless. But when we are perfectly surrendered to Him, we won't be deliberately choosing to do those things we know to be wrong. We'll be open to what God has revealed through the Bible and through the Spirit of Prophecy.

Here are some good paragraphs on what it means to be loving like Jesus loved:

Sanctified love for one another is sacred. In this great work Christian love for one another--far higher, more constant, more courteous, more unselfish, than has been seen--preserves Christian tenderness, Christian benevolence, and politeness, and enfolds the human brotherhood in the embrace of God, acknowledging the dignity with which God has invested the rights of man. This dignity Christians must ever cultivate for the honor and glory of God.--Lt 10, 1897. (5BC 1140, 1141.)

Prepares for Every Eventuality.--Everyone who truly loves God will have the spirit of Christ and a fervent love for his brethren. The more a person's heart is in communion with God, and the more his affections are centered in Christ, the less will he be disturbed by the roughness and hardships he meets in this life.--5T 483, 484 (1889).

Those who love Jesus and the souls for whom He has died will follow after the things which make for peace. But they must take care lest in their efforts to prevent discord they surrender truth, lest in warding off division they sacrifice principle. True brotherhood can never be maintained by compromising principle. As Christians approach the Christlike model and become pure in spirit and action they will feel the venom of the serpent. The opposition of the children of disobedience is excited by a Christianity that is spiritual. . . . That peace and harmony which are secured by mutual concessions to avoid all differences of opinion are not worthy of the name. On points of feeling between man and man, concessions should sometimes be made; but never should one iota of principle be sacrificed to obtain harmony.--RH, Jan 16, 1900. {1MCP 244.1}

Divine Love Impartial.--Christ came to this earth with a message of mercy and forgiveness. He laid the foundation for a religion by which Jew and Gentile, black and white, free and bond, are linked together in one common brotherhood, recognized as equal in the sight of God. The Saviour has a boundless love for every human being. In each one He sees capacity for improvement. With divine energy and hope He greets those for whom He has given His life.--7T 225 (1902). {1MCP 244.2}

Your Love for Souls Measures Your Love for God. --The love revealed in Christ's life of self-denial and self-sacrifice is to be seen in the lives of His followers. We are called "so to walk, even as He walked.". . . {1MCP 245.1}

There are souls among you who need your help. Have you felt a burden to bring them to the cross? Bear in mind that just the degree of love you have for God you will reveal for your brethren, and for souls who are lost and undone, out of Christ.-- RH, Jan 9, 1900. {1MCP 245.2}

[Gail]

Quote:

Sanctified love for one another is sacred. In this great work Christian love for one another--far higher, more constant, more courteous, more unselfish, than has been seen--preserves Christian tenderness, Christian benevolence, and politeness, and enfolds the human brotherhood in the embrace of God, acknowledging the dignity with which God has invested the rights of man. This dignity Christians must ever cultivate for the honor and glory of God.--Lt 10, 1897. (5BC 1140, 1141.)

Thank you for this, John317!

Quote:

Prepares for Every Eventuality.--Everyone who truly loves God will have the spirit of Christ and a fervent love for his brethren. The more a person's heart is in communion with God, and the more his affections are centered in Christ, the less will he be disturbed by the roughness and hardships he meets in this life.--5T 483, 484 (1889).

I have found this to be true, indeed! I only wish my selfish heart wouldn't want to wander so much!

[Tom Wetmore]

This is the end time message of the 58th chapter of Isaiah that EGW said should be preached over and over. It has lead me to a new understanding of the Sabbath as the seal of God's people. The Sabbath is a day to put self aside and do some serious one anothering. I am begining to think of Sabbath as a verb.

Here is an EGW quote or two:

Quote:

According to the fourth commandment the Sabbath was dedicated to rest and religious worship. All secular employment was to be suspended, but works of mercy and benevolence were in accordance with the purpose of the Lord. They were not to be limited to time or place. To relieve the afflicted, to comfort the sorrowing, is a labor of love that does honor to God's holy day.--Redemption: or the Teachings of Christ, no. 4, p. 46. {WM 77.1}

Quote:

All who keep the Sabbath in truth bear the mark of loyalty to God. They are representatives of His kingdom. Their light is to shine forth to others in good works. We are not merely to observe the Sabbath as a legal matter, we are to be intelligent in regard to its spiritual bearing upon all the

transactions of life. God says, "Verily, my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you." Exodus 31:13. This is sanctification through the truth. - 3MR 424 -5.

It's not so much about which day, but which way we observe the Sabbath.

[Gail]

Quote:

It's not so much about which day, but which way we observe the Sabbath.

And what the motivation is.

I'm so thankful for words that touch the heart and give hope in God! Thanks for sharing, Tom. I'm so glad you've brought blessing to us muchly today!

[Dr. Rich]

Here is what I have for verse 6 of Matthew 25

New American Standard- "But at midnight, there was a shout, Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him."

New English Bible- But at midnight a cry was heard: "Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him."

New International Version- At midnight a cry rang out; "Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him."

Amplified Bible- But at midnight there was a shout, "Behold, the bridegroom! Go out to meet him."

The Message Bible- In the middle of the night someone yelled out; "He's here! The Bridegroom's here! Go out to meet him."

There is more, but you get the picture. As for verse 10, this was only for the five foolish who missed out on the wedding feast because they thought faith was enough for them.

Here is the thing: Even IF the shout said the groom was coming-it was at midnight when there was no warning to the Kingdom of Heaven, not to mention to the rest of the world. Please tell me what it was that caused ALL of those in the kingdom of heaven to be sleeping but for the few found in Rev. 3:4?

And who was it that gave the cry if was not the Groom, bride or KOH?

[BobRyan]

It's not so much about which day, but which way we observe the Sabbath.

Indeed. It is a day of "Holy convocation" Lev 23:1-2 where we all come together for worship. (Even in the New Heaven and New Earth, as it turns out... see Isaiah 66)

It is a day where not only are we to refrain from secular labor as we focus on the act of worship toward our Creator, but also we are to refrain from paying others to work for us - on that day (see Exodus 20:8-11).

It is a day to explicitly draw in the Isaiah 45 reference to God - the maker of all things in that literal 7 day creation week - where we make the connection between the things that we see - the things that "were made" as Romans 1 states it -- and the God "who made them".