BobRyan Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Bob, From what you have posted, I am not very sure that you actually understand and are getting the point. You are missing the point, I think. You seem to be repeating the same circular and shallow platitudes about obeying the law and missing the point Jesus was really making. I am not too sure that the windmill against which you keep tilting is even in the same neighborhood as mine. Stop arguing and think. I have two questions for you: What exactly did Jesus mean when he said that He had come to "fulfill" the law? What exactly does it mean to have God's law written on the heart? Go deeper, man... Tom You have a funny way of avoiding the points raised. And sometimes it is entertaining as well. I will give you that. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted July 13, 2009 Administrators Share Posted July 13, 2009 And you are avoiding my questions. Why is that? Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 You have not said anything. If you respond to the points raised - we make progress. If you simply ignore them, the conversation keeps ending. Why do that? In my reference to the "new Creation" of 2Cor 5 and the "New birth" of John 3 I point to the fact that the same law written on tablets of stone when not saved -- is written on the tablets of the human heart for the one that IS saved. This again - is already in my prior post. By not quoting the post and responding to the points raised - we keep getting to a stutter-stop in the dialoge. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Tom wrote: "What exactly did Jesus mean when he said that He had come to "fulfill" the law? What exactly does it mean to have God's law written on the heart?" Tell me Tom, how can anyone know 'exactly'? Sure, we can use texts in our attempt to know, but this can also cause confusion if we use texts that are not from Jesus. Jesus said that He did not come to change the law at all, so "fulfill" clearly couldn't mean that--right? As for the second question, Didn't Jesus say that His sheep know His voice? Would this then mean that we are not to listen to other voices? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Bob, From what you have posted, I am not very sure that you actually understand and are getting the point. You are missing the point, I think. You seem to be repeating the same circular and shallow platitudes about obeying the law and missing the point Jesus was really making. I am not too sure that the windmill against which you keep tilting is even in the same neighborhood as mine. Stop arguing and think. I have two questions for you: What exactly did Jesus mean when he said that He had come to "fulfill" the law? What exactly does it mean to have God's law written on the heart? Go deeper, man... Tom "EXACTLY" Good Post Tom But Going deep is hard for some in our church. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Holbrook Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Quote: The living connection in which the "Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit" Rom 8:16 does not happen in a state of feigned obedience while in living rebellion against God's Word. It also does not happen for the unsaved, those that are not born-again. You are right Bob, once again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Holbrook Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Jesus said that He did not come to change the law at all, so "fulfill" clearly couldn't mean that--right? As for the second question, Didn't Jesus say that His sheep know His voice? Would this then mean that we are not to listen to other voices? You're right too Dr. Rich. Whats goin on here. I guess it's true what they say: even a stopped clock is right twice a day. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 "He shall speak great words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand." Daniel 7:25. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 I don't believe that at all Robert. It seems to me everything is legalism to you. Sorry but that's the way I hear it from the things you say. pk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Originally Posted By: pkrause I don't believe that at all Robert. It seems to me everything is legalism to you. Sorry but that's the way I hear it from the things you say. pk For some people the definition of Legalism is "obeying God in some area I don't care to obey Him in". It will often show up in the form of an offended tossing out of the term "legalism" no matter what the discussion. in Christ, Bob Look in the mirror, Bob....Who loves himself? You....No such sinful propensity was every witnessed in the life of Christ. That's perfection.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Holbrook Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Jesus said you're supposed to love yourself, as much as your neighbor anyway. And no, Jesus never sinned,...we have. But we don't have to continue in sin. By the power of the Holy Spirit we can overcome. To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Rev 2:7 He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. Rev 2:11 We don't have to keep repeating the same sins over and over. If we choose to do this we will grieve the Holy Spirit. The work of sactification may take a lifetime, but it is a work that we have to allow God to do in us never the less. Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, Jude 24 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Jesus said you're supposed to love yourself, as much as your neighbor anyway. Pure heresy.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Holbrook Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Love thy neighbor as thy self. Heresy? No it's a commandment Robert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman1228 Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Jesus did/performed the will of His Father. The will of the Father equals His commandments/10 Commandments. Jesus kept the 10 Commandments. The 10 Commandments are the Covenant of the Kingdom. In this was not Jesus perfect, and law abiding? If we keep all 10 Commandments without fail are we then not like Jesus Christ, perfect and law abiding? The term that describes being perfect and law abiding would be righteous, would it not? In order to be like the Father we must be perfect, righteous and holy. This is also a commandment of Jesus Christ; "Be perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect." In order to overcome as did Jesus Christ we must become righteous, and by doing the deeds of righteousness we become sanctified. This is not a difficult process to grasp, unless you believe as do most Christians that no one can or will ever become perfect here on earth. That in order to become perfect we must wait until Jesus comes and then He will download righteousness into us without our having to do anything on our own, covering our filthy rags (sin) with His robe of righteousness. This kind of thinking does not address what happens to sin that is not shed and eventually destroyed. Can one go to heaven without having first shed their coat of sin? According to modern Christianity the answer is a resounding 'YES'. Jesus does not teach this type of salvation. Jesus teaches that you must learn the truth, and by learning the truth you are then set free. What truth is it that we must know to be saved? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Love thy neighbor as thy self. Heresy? No it's a commandment Robert. 1] I've been over this many times. Lucifer invented the principle of "self".....I'm noting talking about self-awareness, I talking about self-seeking, self-interests and self-love. These things are the essence; the foundation of every sin you commit. 2] There is only one command in your quote: "You are love your neighbor". It doesn't say to love yourself and your neighbor. That's two commands! The 2nd part of your quote tells us how we are love our neighbors: "As you love yourself." In other words you are to take that self-love that you born in and instead of loving yourself project it to your neighbor. You must remember, as Shane brought out, that Jesus is talking to sinners who are already quite in love with themselves. Jesus is stating that the law requires selflessness, not self-love. That type of love is called agape - a love that has no selfishness or self-seeking in it. And you thought you were keeping God's law? EGW: You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth. [DA 439] "In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure [i.e., own way]; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132] "There was not one trace of selfishness in the life of Christ. All who are laborers together with God will have the same spirit as their Master had. They will be continually growing away from selfishness, and renouncing self-indulgence, even in things that had once appeared innocent to them. . . [LHU 325] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Rev 2:7 He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. Rev 2:11 We don't have to keep repeating the same sins over and over. If we choose to do this we will grieve the Holy Spirit. The work of sactification may take a lifetime, but it is a work that we have to allow God to do in us never the less. Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, Jude 24 Ahhh yes good post - so that would be "the Bible". Let's see how well "that" will be accepted... in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted July 14, 2009 Administrators Share Posted July 14, 2009 You have not said anything... To someone who does not listen to anyone but himself, nobody else has said anything. Listening and comprehending is more important to dialog than talking. And quite frankly, not every point posted merits a response. Some really are better ignored.... Tom Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted July 14, 2009 Moderators Share Posted July 14, 2009 .... shallow platitudes about obeying the law .... The Bible's instructions about the necessity of obeying God's law are not shallow and they are always worth repeating. See Deut. 6: 1-9. They're best seen as promises of God. It would be good if we saw more people on the Forum speaking positively about the Bible and about the law of God and the necessity of obedience to His commandments. Quote: What exactly did Jesus mean when he said that He had come to "fulfill" the law? Jesus fulfilled the law in two primary ways. He fulfilled the shadows and the types of the ceremonial law which pointed forward to His life, death and resurrection He also obeyed the moral law perfectly and completely. He always did the will of His Father. Quote: What exactly does it mean to have God's law written on the heart? It means that God's law becomes a part of our thinking and our way of life. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman1228 Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 IF (indicating a rhetorical question-asked and answered) the 10 Commandments of the Covenant of God have been set aside then what is the point of keeping them or any of the other secondary commandments as given by Jesus, as in "Love your neighbor as yourself"? It is all well and good to say that we should keep the Commandments out of love for God, and quite another to then say that keeping the Commandments has nothing to do with our eventual salvation. Keeping the Commandments of God either works toward our salvation or it doesn't. If it doesn't matter then why bother with them; why not just rely on the love of God which is in Christ Jesus to do the job for us? After all we believe that God forgave us from ALL our sins with the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, didn't He? And as long as we claim that sacrifice through faith by grace as our own (which forms the basis for our personal relationship with Jesus-one way though this is) it does not matter what we do (either good or bad), because works have no place in our salvation. After all 'works' is 'legalism' and legalism means law abiding, and if there is NO LAW there can be NO VIOLATION (from Paul), therefore there is no need to be 'law abiding', which means 'legalism' is out, which means 'works' don't apply, which means our salvation is achieved by nothing more than the grace of Christ and our believing this by faith. In other words our salvation is based on nothing tangible; and in that we can only guess as to whether we find salvation or not. Unfortunately, this is what many of you believe. Do you not understand how stupid this sounds and how deadly this is? A famous author once wrote (I paraphrase) that stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the punishment is often death, and there is no appeal. The sentence is carried out automatically and is not mitigated by race, sex, intelligence (or lack thereof), sincerity, or love. Stupidity has also been described as being 'willingly ignorant', which is the 'bury-your-head-in-the-sand syndrome. Please don't be one of those people that say, "Don't bother me with the facts, I have my faith." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted July 14, 2009 Author Administrators Share Posted July 14, 2009 I think you have it backwards, Musicman. Love your neighbour as yourself is not secondary. That and the other one, Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul are the two that the 10 and any others hang from. Love is the principle. When you love God and others more than yourself, you will naturally obey the Law. It's a simple equation but with our selfish hearts not as easy to implement. In fact, it's impossible. We need to be born again. Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Gail, Like my wife often tells me, "What you think doesn't matter". What God thinks does. So tell me Gail, will a good Muslim be in heaven in your way of thinking? How about good people who follow Buddah? Don't they love their god? After you think about your answer, then turn to Rev. 21:8 and 22:15 and please read about what happens to those who have a lie in their mouth or practice a lie. Being good is not the same as obeying God with full respect of the Ten Commandments. Personally, I think this issue is very serious and what musicman wrote is right on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted July 14, 2009 Members Share Posted July 14, 2009 Native Americans were more in tune with what God wanted from people than those Europeans who came over to North America and tried to "civilize" the "savages".... their respect for the Great Spirit coincided more with God's love and honor than the European ideology. I think there will be a lot of people in heaven who haven't heard of the 10 commandments. Only God knows what is in someone's heart, and IF it is in one's heart to obey God, even though they haven't heard the scriptures, I think God will honor that. Nature declares the glory of God. IMHO. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted July 14, 2009 Author Administrators Share Posted July 14, 2009 Gail, Like my wife often tells me, "What you think doesn't matter". What God thinks does. So tell me Gail, will a good Muslim be in heaven in your way of thinking? How about good people who follow Buddah? Don't they love their god? After you think about your answer, then turn to Rev. 21:8 and 22:15 and please read about what happens to those who have a lie in their mouth or practice a lie. Being good is not the same as obeying God with full respect of the Ten Commandments. Personally, I think this issue is very serious and what musicman wrote is right on! And who is talking about being good? I'm talking about converting the heart, the new birth. Love is the principle that all the 10 commandments are based on. And I agree with Pam about those who may not have ever heard the gospel. If they have responded to the light they have been given, who's to say that they won't be saved? There is a verse in Psalm 87 where it talks about mentioning people from outside of Zion, taking into consideration their origin. We can't be the judge of who will or will not be in heaven because we can't read their hearts. God is the Righteous judge and He is merciful. Musicman referred to the two greatest laws of them all, upon which hang all the rest (as Jesus put it), but Musicman called it secondary. I'm saying that it's the principle behind the laws that make them what they are and that the 10 Commandments would have a whole different meaning if not for their root being love. Law keeping without love is missing the point, and missing God's power to work in the life. To keep the law without a heart conversion is a type of self-made imitation of conversion. Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman1228 Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 rudywoofs, Native Americans did have sophisticated culture, and some revered a being they called "The Great Spirit". Yet this Great Spirit led many of these sophisticated cultures to participate in human sacrifice, smoke hallucinogenic drugs to 'see into the future', and wipe out other 'sophisticated' native cultures right and left. Some were peaceful, most were not. What was the real name of the 'Great Spirit' again? Yes, there will be lots of people in Heaven that never knew Jesus Christ or the 10 Commandments - they will have a lot to learn. But there will be NO ONE in Heaven that come out of the Great Tribulation that will not "keep the Commandments of God, and hold to the testimony of Jesus Christ." (Rev.12:17) The choice has always been and always will be which God will you serve, the God of Life, or the god of death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Dr Rich, Musicman and others. I want to make this very plain and very clear. Should folks want to challenge some adventist thought and adventist thinking that is fine, but it will be done here in a private forum with those interested may join, This is not a place for those coming home, and having to constantly defend defend defend, that gets old have the first day or two. We have not invested thousands of dollars into advertising and hosting to have this be a punching bag. When that happens people just leave, they get tired of it and just go elsewhere. If you want more of a public message board, I would be happy to host a blog for you, for the cost I have... about $3-4 per month.. Thoughts? Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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