When Christ's character shall be perfectly reproduced in his people...

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Yes, there is only ONE command, i.e. Love your neighbor in the same manner as you love yourself!

But you already love yourself from birth....So Jesus isn't telling you to love yourself....That's a given...you are already sinful because you are bent to self....Instead love your neighbor as you naturally love yourself....If you do your neighbor would have your goodies....But I see you with all the goodies....Where's that love to your neighbor? Seems you are too busy loving self....Me too! Hence, our need of grace and forgiveness and the righteousness of Christ.

This clearly articulates the issue. Well said Robert.

[Dr. Rich]

Redwood wrote: "This clearly articulates the issue." This I take was on the issue of there being only one commandment--to love your neighbor as yourself?

Remember, there were ten commandments--not one. God could have written "Just be good", but He didn't because He demands respect and to show that respect one must obey all of the ten commandments. Then you will become righteous and the Holy Spirit can live with you so that there will now be unity, as was with the God Head.

The sabbath school quartely for this week is on this very subject.

[Woody]

You miss the point but then you have repeatedly done that so I don't hold out much hope. Especially when the issue has so clearly been articulated by Robert.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Yes, there is only ONE command, i.e. Love your neighbor in the same manner as you love yourself!

But you already love yourself from birth....So Jesus isn't telling you to love yourself....That's a given...you are already sinful because you are bent to self....Instead love your neighbor as you naturally love yourself....If you do your neighbor would have your goodies....But I see you with all the goodies....Where's that love to your neighbor? Seems you are too busy loving self....Me too! Hence, our need of grace and forgiveness and the righteousness of Christ.

If the agape love that I have for myself is evil, why then would Christ ask me to love my neighbor with an evil love/

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

But you already love yourself from birth....So Jesus isn't telling you to love yourself....That's a given...you are already sinful because you are bent to self....Instead love your neighbor as you naturally love yourself....If you do your neighbor would have your goodies....But I see you with all the goodies....Where's that love to your neighbor? Seems you are too busy loving self....Me too! Hence, our need of grace and forgiveness and the righteousness of Christ. [/quote']

If the agape love that I have for myself is evil, why then would Christ ask me to love my neighbor with an evil love/

You are massively confused....Gerry, this is rather simple....We can skip all this and go directly to someone who lived the law -- Jesus Christ.

Now look to His selfless life....That's agape. Are you living His life? If not, why? Answer: Self-love

[Woody]

TU

[Dr. Rich]

Musicman wrote: "Robert, What does it mean to 'die to self?'

Well, it appears that Robert, or anyone for fact, can't answer your question musicman.

[Richard Holbrook]

Why don't you answer it then. You know you want to.

[Robert]

Musicman wrote: "Robert, What does it mean to 'die to self?'

Well, it appears that Robert, or anyone for fact, can't answer your question musicman.

It means to no longer be controlled by one's bent to self....

[Dr. Rich]

Robert, you gotta do better than that--please. Just who is it that is in control of you? Die to self??? Then who is it that is in control--Satan?

[Robert]

Robert, you gotta do better than that--please.

That's my answer....Sorry you can't understand....

Rob

[Musicman1228]

My Dad once told me that if you can't say it you don't know it. He was talking to me about math and my inability to understand it, but it also applies to spiritual understanding also. There are lots of expressions such as "The blood of Christ saves me", "He covers my sin", "We must die to self", "Jesus is my personal savior". If you ask Christians to explain these types of expressions they more than likely cannot do it, because to give a coherent explanation requires stretching logic beyond the limits of logic's capabilities. If you ask "how does the blood of Christ save me", or "How does Jesus cover my sins", or How do you die to self" the explanation cannot be logical and make sense because the questions themselves are not logical and don't make sense.

[John317]

Dying to self means surrendering our wills to Christ. It's denying our own wants in order to fulfill what we know is God's will.

Two very good paragraphs on what it means to die to self--

I was pointed to the remnant on the earth. The angel said to them, "Will ye shun the seven last plagues? . . . If so, ye must die that ye may live. Get ready, get ready, get ready. Ye must have a greater preparation than ye now have. . . . Sacrifice all to God. Lay all upon His altar--self, property, and all, a living sacrifice. It will take all to enter glory." Maranatha (1976), page 98, paragraph 3;Chapter Title: "Get Ready, Get Ready, Get Ready"

The sin which is indulged to the greatest extent, and which separates us from God and produces so many contagious spiritual disorders, is selfishness. There can be no returning to the Lord except by self-denial. Of ourselves we can do nothing; but, through God strengthening us, we can live to do good to others, and in this way shun the evil of selfishness. We need not go to heathen lands to manifest our desire to devote all to God in a useful, unselfish life. We should do this in the home circle, in the church, among those with whom we associate and with whom we do business. Right in the common walks of life is where self is to be denied and kept in subordination. Paul could say: "I die daily." It is the daily dying to self in the little transactions of life that makes us overcomers. We should forget self in the desire to do good to others. With many there is a decided lack of love for others. Instead of faithfully performing their duty, they seek rather their own pleasure. Testimonies for the Church Volume Two (1868-1871), page 132, paragraph 1; Chapter Title: Separation From the World

[Robert]

or "How does Jesus cover my sins", or How do you die to self" the explanation cannot be logical and make sense because the questions themselves are not logical and don't make sense.

That's because they are metaphors that point to a certain truth.

[Gerr]

color:blue]

If the agape love that I have for myself is evil, why then would Christ ask me to love my neighbor with an evil love/

You are massively confused....Gerry, this is rather simple....We can skip all this and go directly to someone who lived the law -- Jesus Christ.

Now look to His selfless life....That's agape. Are you living His life? If not, why? Answer: Self-love

We are talking about the commandment that says: Love your neighbor as yourself, which if I understand you correctly means I am to take that natural love for myself that I was born with and direct it to my neighbor. But you say that kind of love for self is evil, did you not? That's why I bring up the question, if my natural love for self is evil, why would Jesus ask me to love my neighbor with an evil love?

[Richard Holbrook]

We are talking about the commandment that says: Love your neighbor as yourself, which if I understand you correctly means I am to take that natural love for myself that I was born with and direct it to my neighbor. But you say that kind of love for self is evil, did you not? That's why I bring up the question, if my natural love for self is evil, why would Jesus ask me to love my neighbor with an evil love?

Makes perfect sense to me. "as" means the same as, not instead of.

[Robert]

We are talking about the commandment that says: Love your neighbor as yourself,

[Robert]

Quote:

Love your neighbor AS you love yourself.

So, you read it thus: Love yourself and love your neighbor....

See, we are back to this heresy. It doesn't say to continue to love yourself. It says love your neighbor, how? As you love yourself. If you loved your neighbor as you naturally love yourself, then you neighbor would have all your goodies....Instead you've been loving yourself a lot and your neighbor? well, he doesn't have the goodies now does he? Why? You are too busy loving yourself! This is sin and hence you had to be delivered from under law. See Gal 4:4

[Woody]

[phkrause]

I don't believe that, I believe they are exactly what they appear to say.

pk

[Woody]

[Woody]

Whoops .... sorry. The thumbs up was meant for Robert this time .... not pk. But then pk good friends can differ.

[Robert]

I don't believe that, I believe they are exactly what they appear to say.

pk

And I'll tell you why most state such heresy: Because if what I say is true (and it is) it means that you are a sinner condemned under law. It means you aren't part of the remnant who keep God's law. That's why folks get upset...it kind of ruins their day....

Now let me ask you something....When Christ was on the cross He couldn't see beyond the portals of the grave. EGW states this too....His Father had forsaken Him and therefore the hope of the resurrection forsook Him.

He had a choice to make: He could love Himself, come down off the cross, and say to hell with His murders (both Jew and Gentile) or He could chose to die, not for 3 days, but for eternity.

Which did He chose?

Right, to take the curse...to give up heaven for ever so that His enemies could take His place.

Now, please tell me how He could both love His enemies and Himself simultaneously?

Rob

[Robert]

When Christ was on the cross He couldn't see beyond the portals of the grave. EGW states this too....His Father had forsaken Him and therefore the hope of the resurrection forsook Him.

He had a choice to make: He could love Himself, come down off the cross, and say to hell with His murders (both Jew and Gentile) or He could chose to die, not for 3 days, but for eternity.

When Christ became a man in the incarnation He had to give up not His divinity, but His divine prerogatives, in other words, the independent use of His divinity. Even His God-consciousness had to be given up. Jesus discovered He was God only by revelation. He was not God-conscious as a baby. He had to grow up in knowledge. He had to grow up in everything because He had given up the independent use of His divinity and was made in all things like unto us (Heb. 2:17).

Therefore, He was totally God-dependent all through His earthly ministry. John 5:30 says, “I can do nothing of myself.” John 6:57 says, “I live by the Father.” See also John 8:28 and John 14:10. All these texts state very clearly that Christ was totally God-dependent. Then read Rom 6:4; Acts 2:24, 32; Eph. 1:20. All of these texts clearly tell us that it was the Father who raised Christ from the dead. Keep these two things in mind: Christ was God-dependent, and He was dependent on the Father for the resurrection. Don’t ask me what happened to His divine consciousness when He was in the grave. Where was His divine life? I don’t know. It’s a mystery. We will spend eternity studying that, but I do know one thing, it was the Father He was depending on for the resurrection just like everything else.

Do you know what the Father did on the cross? Christ cried out: “Father, Father why have you forsaken me?” What He meant is not “Why are you leaving me for three days?” but, “Why have You abandoned Me?” Do you know what that meant to Christ? It meant that the hope of the resurrection went with that abandonment. When the Father forsook Him in terms of Christ’s feeling, then the hope of the resurrection went with it. Jesus was now “treading the winepress alone.” He could no longer look on the Father with hope and assurance as far as His feelings were concerned. He felt the agony of God-abandonment, exactly what the wicked will feel when mercy no longer pleads with the guilty race.

Here is a key passage from Desire of Ages, by E.G. White, p 753: “He could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him the coming forth from the grave a conqueror or tell Him of the Father’s acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that their separation was to be eternal.” Do you realize what Christ was tempted to do on the cross as He hung there? The Father had forsaken Him. But remember, He was still God. He could have taken hold of His divinity independent of the Father, against the Father’s wishes, and come down from the cross to save Himself.

That is exactly what the devil tried to get Him to do. In Luke 23:35-39, at least three times the devil approached Christ—once through the Roman soldiers, once through the priests, and once through the thief on the left-hand side. Then, in Matt. 27:35-46, the people also added to that temptation. The temptation was the same, “Come down from the cross and save yourself.” Can you imagine what that temptation was like? We can’t. I’m glad Desire of Ages makes that clear: “The temptation that Christ experienced can never be fully understood by men.... The withdrawal of the Divine Countenance from the Savior in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man.” Ibid.

Do you know why? Because there has been no human being in this world who has really, fully, experienced the wrath of God as Christ did. He is the only man who has experienced the fullness of God-abandonment, which is the equivalent of the second death. Christ was tempted to come down from the cross and save Himself. Can you understand the temptation? The issue He faced was not to screw up His will power and say, “I’ll hold on for a few hours or for three days.” That is no sacrifice for a God who lives in eternity. The issue was good-bye to life forever, never again to see His Father, never again to go back to heaven. It meant to give up His glory, to give up His life. That was the issue. That is the curse of God.

As He hung on the cross experiencing God’s curse for our sins, Jesus had to make a choice. He could not save Himself and the world at the same time. And He did make the supreme choice. He chose to die eternally that you and I may live in His place. That is what transformed the disciples. They were so shocked! They had not understood such love before as this. It is this concept of agape that turned the world upsidedown, that God not only came down for thirty-three years, but Jesus their Savior was willing to say good-bye to life forever that they may live in His place. “But God demonstrated His love that while we were still sinners Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8).

In other words, the supreme sacrifice is that Jesus was willing to accept our curse and give us His life in exchange. It was not a question of saving Himself and the world. He could not do that. He had to make a choice between the world and Himself. Do you know what Christ was saying on the cross? I hope you will never forget this; He was saying that He loves us more than Himself. That is God’s agape

Jack Sequeira

[Woody]

Amen brother. That is the Gospel. Thank you.